Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[King Postwhore]

But it's not out of the norm for him really.

[erwinrafael]

Sarcasm got lost in the translation.

[rumborak]

Maybe not controversial, but an interesting thing nonetheless: Has anybody noticed how DT has no sexual lyrics whatsoever? Like, every metal band I know has raunchy lyrics here and there, but DT always stayed away from it.

[Calvin6s]

Maybe not controversial, but an interesting thing nonetheless: Has anybody noticed how DT has no sexual lyrics whatsoever? Like, every metal band I know has raunchy lyrics here and there, but DT always stayed away from it.

Anna Lee
Through Her Eyes

[abydos]

That's because sex is death.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Maybe not controversial, but an interesting thing nonetheless: Has anybody noticed how DT has no sexual lyrics whatsoever? Like, every metal band I know has raunchy lyrics here and there, but DT always stayed away from it.

No lyrics, just orgasm sounds.

[Calvin6s]

Maybe not controversial, but an interesting thing nonetheless: Has anybody noticed how DT has no sexual lyrics whatsoever? Like, every metal band I know has raunchy lyrics here and there, but DT always stayed away from it.

No lyrics, just orgasm sounds.

She was faking

[Zook]

The Dance of Eternity may not have lyrics, but it represents sex. Crazy ass kinky fuckin' sex.

[?]

What about Voices?: "Sucks his dick, Captain Sex"

[hefdaddy42]

Maybe not controversial, but an interesting thing nonetheless: Has anybody noticed how DT has no sexual lyrics whatsoever? Like, every metal band I know has raunchy lyrics here and there, but DT always stayed away from it.

I don't want to say that they are too mature for it, but I don't think they are immature enough to do a good job with it.

Besides, all of these guys are long-time married.  Most lyrics like that are written by single people or musicians who play "fuck the groupie" every night.  From that standpoint, the guys in the band seem pretty tame.

[BlackInk]

Maybe they don't have lyrics about just sex. But there's definetely some sex in the SFaM story. Not to mention the porn sound interlude. Though that might just be the only sex in that story.

EDIT: Never mind, I somehow missed that this had already been discussed, and only managed to read hef's response..

[Kotowboy]

I'd love to hear a DT album with a more "classic" mix, something like FII.

That would be fantastic.

Hell - even a mix like Black Clouds would be good at this point.

Although i'd *settle* for another album like DT12 as long as they get a more traditional snare sound.


My Ideal Mix : Octavarium or FII

What I'd Settle For : BC&SL / DT12 with a tighter snare.

What we'll probably get : DT12 x 2 - just with less of a thudding snare - since MM has been vocal about how it affected his technique and

I don't think two DT albums sound identical.

[BlackInk]

Not me. The guitar's should be better too. I don't like listening to a guitar played through a hundred pounds of cotton candy.

[Kotowboy]

I like a good mix as much as the next person ( ok maybe the next 5th person...)

But I'm not gonna be too downhearted if we get another album like DT12 . the snare sounded great initially but got tiresome after a while.

As long as the songs are great and the production is at least *good* then i'm usually happy.

I don't think we'll get another album that breathes as much as FII again though

[hefdaddy42]

I like a good mix as much as the next person ( ok maybe the next 5th person...)

But I'm not gonna be too downhearted if we get another album like DT12 . the snare sounded great initially but got tiresome after a while.

As long as the songs are great and the production is at least *good* then i'm usually happy.

I don't think we'll get another album that breathes as much as FII again though

This is me.

I would love another FII-style mix.

But as long as it is at least as good as everything post-WDADU, I will be OK.

[Kotowboy]

I don't even mind the sound of SC.

At least the drums were nicely balanced.

[XB0BX]

I don't even mind the sound of SC.

At least the drums were nicely balanced.

I agree.

[Madman Shepherd]

Ya know I'm relatively educated in sound mixes and sound quality but I haven't had any issue with what they've done lately. 

If pressed I would say FII probably is the best mix but I think SC is a perfectly appropriate mix for the style that they had. 

We can all agree that WDADU is a mix they definitely want to stay away from (but even I can put that aside and enjoy the album). 

[Jaq]

Ya know I'm relatively educated in sound mixes and sound quality but I haven't had any issue with what they've done lately. 

If pressed I would say FII probably is the best mix but I think SC is a perfectly appropriate mix for the style that they had. 

We can all agree that WDADU is a mix they definitely want to stay away from (but even I can put that aside and enjoy the album).

I haven't had a problem with their mixes and sound quality either. In fact if you want some controversy: I think a lot of people overemphasize perceptions of how awful music sounds to be able to boast about what they know. And in some cases, all they know is "brickwalled" and "compression", but that doesn't stop them.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah I try not to do that. I tend to base my enjoyment on albums as a whole and not just listen through once and go " well the mastering could use less mid range EQ and track 2 needs less attack on the limiter blah blah".

I don't really care about any of that.

I might comment somewhere down the line that - yeah the album is a little "hot" overall.

But I never wanna be the guy who chucks around buzzwords to appear knowledgeable in music production as I'm largely self taught as it is.



As I've mentioned previously - I hate when something gets released - and the internet's immediate

reaction is "here's what's wrong with it"

[Prog Snob]

I didn't know much about terms like that until I came here but I do have a good ear to pick up on it so the education I received here from some people was fruitful for me because I always wondered why things sounded different from one mix to the next.  So now I do understand terms like brickwalled and can empathize with people who find it to be a good thing, bad thing, or just plain old indifferent towards it.

[425]

I haven't had a problem with their mixes and sound quality either. In fact if you want some controversy: I think a lot of people overemphasize perceptions of how awful music sounds to be able to boast about what they know. And in some cases, all they know is "brickwalled" and "compression", but that doesn't stop them.

Yeah, I would say that even if there are some people who do that, there are a lot of us who don't. I also don't think it's really a "controversial opinion" to essentially accuse people of lying, but whatever. I'll freely admit that I know next to nothing about music production, but the non-HDTracks versions of SC and DT12 are not the most pleasant albums to listen to for me. That's just how I experienced those. I also don't like the mix of DT12 that well from an aesthetic point of view—the guitar is too powerful. But while ADTOE isn't going to win any awards for production, I wouldn't mind at all if DT13 sounded similar to it.

[BlobVanDam]

Having a well trained ear and having a bit of knowledge about audio isn't for the sake of boasting, it's about giving critical feedback on a recording in the hope of making a change in future.
For as long as people remain ignorant and try to dismiss those with a higher standard than "it sounds ok on my car stereo", we're going to keep getting subpar sounding albums from the music industry that have a negative impact on the recording and the listening experience.
If you care about listening to music, there is no benefit to compressing an album to within an inch of being white noise. And if you don't care and don't hear any problem, it's of no detriment to you for it to be done to the standards of those that do. It's a win-win!

I'm speaking in general here, not about DT albums specifically.

[Sycsa]

But while ADTOE isn't going to win any awards for production, I wouldn't mind at all if DT13 sounded similar to it.

I'm not overly critical of DT's production, I like how their albums sound in general, but ADTOE is blatantly and by far the worst sounding record they put out since their debut album. The sound is muddy, the guitars are as if you put a blanket over your speakers (a really thick one), the drums are woefully inconsistent, many fills are entirely buried (for instance, listen to the OTBOA drum stem, there's an amazing fill right before the keyboard break, which is virtually non-existent in the final mix). Listen to almost any other DT album, then suddenly pop in ADTOE and it will make it sound like a demo, I wouldn't want to go back to that.

I agree with Blob.

[BlobVanDam]

I agree ADTOE sounds like a demo. It doesn't sound terrible, but it doesn't sound polished or finished. Other albums have had worse compression, but they've all had much better mixes.
The drums have no kick to them, no punch to the bass drum, the snare is dead, the cymbals have no highs or presence. The guitars are muddy with those bassy mids. The whole thing sounds off.

I don't know why DT stopped using Kevin Shirley. His stuff was their best sounding.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I think the keys on ADTOE generally sound good and the vox usually do. The guitars are okay at times but a far cry from the greatness of JP's ToT sound. And the bass and drums are just way off. If they had the ADTOE drum sound with the DT12 drum volume, the drums would be okay, but they're borderline unacceptable on both releases.

[King Postwhore]

I know it's a money thing, but getting a top notch producer to push them musically would help as well.

[?]

Having a well trained ear and having a bit of knowledge about audio isn't for the sake of boasting, it's about giving critical feedback on a recording in the hope of making a change in future.
For as long as people remain ignorant and try to dismiss those with a higher standard than "it sounds ok on my car stereo", we're going to keep getting subpar sounding albums from the music industry that have a negative impact on the recording and the listening experience.
If you care about listening to music, there is no benefit to compressing an album to within an inch of being white noise. And if you don't care and don't hear any problem, it's of no detriment to you for it to be done to the standards of those that do. It's a win-win!

I'm speaking in general here, not about DT albums specifically.

All of this.

While the production of ADTOE had its shortcomings (quiet drums, overuse of double-tracked vocals), I find it a lot more listenable than the crappy sound of DT12 with its muddy guitars, fake-sounding drums and overloud mastering.

[Kotowboy]

I had a listen to DT12 again yesterday and enjoyed it again ( I have the HD Tracks version ) but that snare just stands out like a sore thumb as they say.

With a snare like on any earlier album - and the HD Tracks as the final retail version - that album would be so much better . . .

[rumborak]

It's also unfortunate that right the first real track (TEI) drives home the drum computer sound. The section around 2:45 in the tune is probably supposed to showcase MM's flawless execution, but it really sounds like something I might have programmed in in Sonar.

[425]

verly critical of DT's production, I like how their albums sound in general, but ADTOE is blatantly and by far the worst sounding record they put out since their debut album. The sound is muddy, the guitars are as if you put a blanket over your speakers (a really thick one), the drums are woefully inconsistent, many fills are entirely buried (for instance, listen to the OTBOA drum stem, there's an amazing fill right before the keyboard break, which is virtually non-existent in the final mix). Listen to almost any other DT album, then suddenly pop in ADTOE and it will make it sound like a demo, I wouldn't want to go back to that.

I agree with Blob.

See, I think part of the reason I don't mind the production of ADTOE is because 1) I'm not someone who listens extremely closely to drumming unless it jumps out at me, which Mangini rarely does and 2) I like it better when DT is softer than when they are heavier, so I actually don't mind the guitar being pulled back. I have noticed that ADTOE has a weak guitar sound sometimes (this jumps out on BITS), but DT12 is WAY overcompensated. I would rather have ADTOE's weak guitar than DT12's "this instrument alone is half the mix" guitar. And I don't notice drumming.

So yeah, while I'd rather have FII's sound than anything else, I think ADTOE sounds MUCH better than DT12. DT12 sounds kind of like what would happen if Willy Wonka's chocolate river flooded and turned the whole room into a chocolate swamp. I would also argue that ADTOE, as a finished product, sounds better than the CD version of SC, because SC is pretty heavily brickwalled. On the HDTracks, SC has a slight advantage due to having a better mix.

And I agree with Blob too.

[erwinrafael]

It's also unfortunate that right the first real track (TEI) drives home the drum computer sound. The section around 2:45 in the tune is probably supposed to showcase MM's flawless execution, but it really sounds like something I might have programmed in in Sonar.

It is a standard double pedal fast run, what is so robotic about that?

This MM sounds too perfect complaints are cracking me up. Yes, let's frown on technical virtuosity in a prog band!

[abydos]

Technical virtuosity doesn't mean you have to be lifeless.

[425]

Seriously. I mean, think about the guy who everyone is comparing Mangini to. Even though Portnoy is clearly not as technically skilled as Mangini, I think he almost has to qualify as a "virtuoso," yet no one thinks he's lifeless. And no one here is saying "I like Portnoy better because he makes mistakes." I think that finding Portnoy to be a livelier drummer than Mangini is a completely fair position to hold. I also think it's totally fair if you disagree with it.

[rumborak]

Gavin Harrison, Neil Peart, Marco Minnemann, they're all virtuosos, but none of them I would call lifeless. But frankly, that's also because they make sure their drums sound top notch on a record. That double bass run in TEI would sound good with a strong drum sound; it's just that with the sound on DT12 it sounds totally like a drum computer. And MM's precision only exacerbates the situation.

And to hit on the bigger point here, precision, while sorta "cool" in itself, almost always becomes problematic when overdone. In fact, any modern drum machine these days has a "humanize" option for exactly that reason. People perceive the slight imperfections in drumming, but they carry a lot of meaning, since any listener can tell whether the drummer was bored, excited, chill, whatever. That's what makes drumming an "expressive" instrument; if you take that element out by hitting exactly on time and exactly with the same velocity each time, for most people that actually takes away from the enjoyability of the performance.