Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[KevShmev]

I never said that he is lazy, I certainly do not think so. However, I do think that saying that he's not about complicated beats and such to be a lazy excuse (which was in direct reference to the video that was shared.) This does not relate to Parasomnia specifically, it's more for the general approach.
 

On this, I think it is clear that Mike Portnoy has made a concerted effort in the last few years to rebrand himself as a feel drummer (vs a technical one).  My guess, and this is just a guess, is that he realizes that if he gets put in the technical drummer box that he will be viewed on the lower end compared to guys like Gavin Harrison, Mike Mangini and others, so he is going the other way and saying he is all about feel and not about complicated beats and whatnot.  And I don't mean this as a criticism at all, as I think he has a good balance and does have a good feel that I feel some super technical drummers (no names!) do not.  I just think the reasons why he is trying to rebrand the type of drummer that he is are more than obvious.

[Kocak]

On this, I think it is clear that Mike Portnoy has made a concerted effort in the last few years to rebrand himself as a feel drummer (vs a technical one).  My guess, and this is just a guess, is that he realizes that if he gets put in the technical drummer box that he will be viewed on the lower end compared to guys like Gavin Harrison, Mike Mangini and others, so he is going the other way and saying he is all about feel and not about complicated beats and whatnot.  And I don't mean this as a criticism at all, as I think he has a good balance and does have a good feel that I feel some super technical drummers (no names!) do not.  I just think the reasons why he is trying to rebrand the type of drummer that he is are more than obvious.

I agree with this assessment. Based on his past statements, I reckon his self-induced transformation from a technical drummer to a groove one started when he stopped doing drum solos and subsequently, clinics. I view this as a personal choice. However, it is also an excuse to not push yourself further in terms of drumming ability. It is obvious that the "rebrand" is intentional.

Somewhere around ten to fifteen years ago, he gave this interview in which he talked about taking drum lessons and "reinventing" his drumming like Neil Peart did in the 90's and said "maybe when the kids go off to college". I was so excited to hear him say that. He ended up not doing anything about it though.

[WilliamMunny]

I was shooting for a novel. My publisher isn't going to be happy. 

I don't think this is a matter of semantics though, my choice of words do reflect what I think and how I would like to express my thoughts. It may or may not be how others would choose to phrase things and I am always interested in hearing what others have to say about my take on things or anything else for that matter.

To be clear, I say 'novella' in the most glowing of terms–I appreciate long-form thought, and wish I had the time to post more. You (and Stadler) take the time to articulate yourself in a way that I think lends that much more 'benefit of the doubt' to what you are saying.

As for your point on 'semantics,' fair enough.

Finally, interested to hear your perspective on who you hold in high regard at the moment. Who is the benchmark for prog-metal, in your estimation? Haken? Anyone else?

You may have already covered it, but I only recall reading your thoughts regarding DT. Feel free to take this topic to a different thread, but I think it would be pertinent to the discussion to know what the benchmark is for DT in 2025.

[Kocak]

Finally, interested to hear your perspective on who you hold in high regard at the moment. Who is the benchmark for prog-metal, in your estimation? Haken? Anyone else?

Interesting question. I don't really listen to Haken, though their drummer, is someone I know and he is very talented. I do think that the band has some cool moments, I have some Haken tracks that I enjoy.

To name some bands, I enjoy The Ocean, Karnivool, 2000's Pain of Salvation, Leprous, OSI, some of Devin Townsend's work, Tool and Porcupine Tree, though I wouldn't consider them "metal". Thing is though, I wouldn't set any of these aforementioned bands as "the benchmark" because I don't look at music that way. A common denominator for all these bands is that, in my head, they manage to present their creative vision in an appropriate way. I may or may not like some of the musical ideas, but they do a good job of pulling me into their vision and demonstrating it.

You may have already covered it, but I only recall reading your thoughts regarding DT. Feel free to take this topic to a different thread, but I think it would be pertinent to the discussion to know what the benchmark is for DT in 2025.

The modern era of metal in general, is defined by a certain sound. There are many great engineers and producers working on excellent music, but in terms of sonic character, some work that some people have been doing has had great impact on how professional musicians want their music to sound. Jens Borgen is one of those people. His aesthetic has been influential. Another one is Adam "Nolly" Getgood, his work has been influential as well. There are others, of course, these are just examples.

I had a conversation with Danny Carey once, overall top dude and because we were in a studio (not a Tool session, for those that are inclined to ask), we were talking about aesthetics and I told him that I felt that metal, specifically, started sounding the same. He told me that when they went to David Bottrill for Aenima, he was reluctant to mix the album because he wasn't a metal music guy and they convinced him by telling them that they didn't want the album to sound like modern metal. Their choices is some of what makes them unique.

Musicians, bands look up to DT, you see professionals in the comments when the band releases something and they're all excited, which is great but if there is a benchmark, I don't feel like DT is setting it at the moment. This isn't just about music. A band is much more than that: The music, the image, the aesthetics, the overall feel that the artist conveys to the fans. When I look at DT today, all I see is wasted potential and sadly, mediocrity. This directly relates to my changing tastes but I would like them to push the envelope. Do something different, sound different, set the bar high for yourself. Don't go to a mixing engineer because they worked with a band that you like, go to someone because they are right for the music that you have created. Widen your frame of reference so that you know that you are on the right track when molding your musical ideas. I don't think that we are getting the best possible version of Dream Theater in terms of album releases. They do have a certain standard in terms of quality when it comes to live performances, but their studio releases always releases always leave something to be desired.

I don't know if this answers your question, but I am willing to expand my ideas based on your response(s).

[Dream Team]

Just on the whole "regressing" angle; maybe DT at this point are just concentrating more on writing catchy songs and not necessarily trying to reinvent the whole technicality approach? A View was very technical, if you push it any further you lose people (and some were lost anyway). Parasomnia does a good job of pulling back on that and yet still having plenty of great playing.

[nobloodyname]

Just on the whole "regressing" angle; maybe DT at this point are just concentrating more on writing catchy songs and not necessarily trying to reinvent the whole technicality approach? A View was very technical, if you push it any further you lose people (and some were lost anyway). Parasomnia does a good job of pulling back on that and yet still having plenty of great playing.

They've said a couple of times recently (JP and JM) that they felt the need to dial back the technicality on the most recent album. I can't remember the exact words from either but the intimation was they felt it'd got too much.

[emtee]

And I agree with their approach.

[MidnightSlice]

Just on the whole "regressing" angle; maybe DT at this point are just concentrating more on writing catchy songs and not necessarily trying to reinvent the whole technicality approach? A View was very technical, if you push it any further you lose people (and some were lost anyway). Parasomnia does a good job of pulling back on that and yet still having plenty of great playing.

A lot of this is really just opinion. I think Parasomnia has JR's best work on any DT album, no caveats. Why? Because he less technical and focused more on sounds from my perspective. To me this helps the songs to be much more enjoyable. If that's regressing then I will take regressing. To me that that could be seen as progressing by some. By the way, he still rips on many parts of the album.

[gzarruk]

They've said a couple of times recently (JP and JM) that they felt the need to dial back the technicality on the most recent album. I can't remember the exact words from either but the intimation was they felt it'd got too much.

Jordan also talked some years ago about how he struggled a bit during the recordings for A View, specially the title track, because of the weird time signatures they were using, like bars of 23.

[Misirlou]

Jordan also talked some years ago about how he struggled a bit during the recordings for A View, specially the title track, because of the weird time signatures they were using, like bars of 23.

I´ve never thought I´d see the words "Jordan Rudess" and "struggling" in the same sentences.

But yeah, View is definitely the most technical record they´ve ever made.

[KevShmev]

I agree with this assessment. Based on his past statements, I reckon his self-induced transformation from a technical drummer to a groove one started when he stopped doing drum solos and subsequently, clinics. I view this as a personal choice. However, it is also an excuse to not push yourself further in terms of drumming ability. It is obvious that the "rebrand" is intentional.

Somewhere around ten to fifteen years ago, he gave this interview in which he talked about taking drum lessons and "reinventing" his drumming like Neil Peart did in the 90's and said "maybe when the kids go off to college". I was so excited to hear him say that. He ended up not doing anything about it though.

See, that doesn't bother me.  His drumming level as a player was super high early in his career and he could have stayed at that level for his entire career and would have been totally fine.  Same goes for every member of Dream Theater. 

[Stadler]

On this, I think it is clear that Mike Portnoy has made a concerted effort in the last few years to rebrand himself as a feel drummer (vs a technical one).  My guess, and this is just a guess, is that he realizes that if he gets put in the technical drummer box that he will be viewed on the lower end compared to guys like Gavin Harrison, Mike Mangini and others, so he is going the other way and saying he is all about feel and not about complicated beats and whatnot.  And I don't mean this as a criticism at all, as I think he has a good balance and does have a good feel that I feel some super technical drummers (no names!) do not.  I just think the reasons why he is trying to rebrand the type of drummer that he is are more than obvious.

Or maybe he's just older and doesn't want to be on that rat race anymore? 

Maybe I'm sensitive to this, because I'm the same age, but "growth" doesn't have to JUST be "faster, more complicated, more confusing!" Growth isn't just moving from 120 bpm to 125 bpm, or from 21/8 time signatures to 22/9 time signatures. 

I think there's just as much evidence that shows THEY were getting bored of that, and a certain sector of the fanbase was getting bored with that. 

I can't understand for the life of me why anyone would want their favorite band to be doing things that they don't want to do.  That aren't fun for them.  Look, I don't know any more than anyone else about this, but I know what I saw:  I saw two men having a BLAST during John's solo tour, their wives out in the lobby hanging with fans... I didn't see a lot of joy on stage during the last two DT shows. That's not Mangini's fault, per se, but forsaking the connection for the whatever it was they were pursuing...

I was listening to King Crimson the other night, the "Starless" box set, with all the live shows from 1973.  Some of it was great; when they were on, they were on. Some of it - a lot of it - was wankery that just didn't land.  And what did Fripp do?  He put out the one album they had left, broke up the band and decided to move in a different direction.  Working with Daryl Hall, Peter Gabriel, Blondie, David Bowie, Eno...  and even when he reconvened his main gig, it was. different direction. Not pop, by any stretch, still music played at a high level, but a better blend of technique, feel, and connection. ELP did this. In fact, I'm not sure there's a band we can name that has moved in the opposite direction. 

[Stadler]

This directly relates to my changing tastes but I would like them to push the envelope. Do something different, sound different, set the bar high for yourself.

Thank you for at least acknowledging that some of this is you, but I'll ask a question I've asked before and that no one has really answered: why does their "higher bar" have to be YOUR higher bar?  Why does a "higher bar" HAVE to be this singular aspect of technical playing?  An aspect that by some accounts anyway, they reached a dead end with?  Isn't there a point where it becomes... pointless?  Why can't - why SHOULDN'T - their growth be multidimensional?  Why can't it be different than yours? 

[Kocak]

Thank you for at least acknowledging that some of this is you

I have never stated that none of this isn't me.

why does their "higher bar" have to be YOUR higher bar?

It does not. I have never claimed that it has to be.

Why does a "higher bar" HAVE to be this singular aspect of technical playing?

The "higher bar" does not relate to just the musical side of things. As I have written, it relates to everything. I have never claimed that the issues that I see in Dream Theater are just about the performance.

An aspect that by some accounts anyway, they reached a dead end with?

Maybe they reached a dead end because they have been recycling variations of similar ideas and we have heard it all before?

Why can't - why SHOULDN'T - their growth be multidimensional?

I don't think there's any growth of any kind. I just hope that they are not blinded by the hype around the reunion.

Why can't it be different than yours? 

It can be.

Because:

We are providing opinions in an opinion thread.

And I don't think you understand the purpose of this thread.

[Kocak]

See, that doesn't bother me.  His drumming level as a player was super high early in his career and he could have stayed at that level for his entire career and would have been totally fine.  Same goes for every member of Dream Theater. 

It is a personal choice. I cannot say anything about it. However, I find the "rebrand" to be somewhat insincere considering how he got his accolades in the first place.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I may or may not have.  I don't know what to tell you.

But first, for the 1,000th time - I'm not sure why you're obstinately refusing to understand this point - I'm NOT irked by criticism of the band. Maybe that's the sticking point.  If you don't like someone, I could care less and I will sit and read quietly the criticisms.  It's why I don't respond at all to criticisms that certain songs are "bloated".  Fair, that's for each listener to decide.

My criticism isn't with criticism or opinions; my beef is that labeling something an "opinion" isn't a magic bullet to say whatever you want, and no opinion is free from it's own criticism.  I have a real problem with injecting one's personal thoughts, wishes, dreams, onto someone else and demanding they think the same way. And if you think I'm just "an MP warrior" (my words), go to the Iron Maiden thread.  Saying "I wish I could hear 'To Tame A Land' is NOT the same thing as saying "Fucking Steve Harris needs to get over it and start playing deep tracks like 'To Tame A Land'".  No, he does not. All he has to do - and not even that - is be Steve Harris. It's his band, he can play whatever the fuck he wants and we get the choice to go or not. Full stop.
 
Nope, this has nothing to do with "opinions".  Have at it. You might notice I've never actually said your opinion was wrong or anything like that. What I object to is your feeling that YOUR OPINION is the BAND'S PROBLEM.  You not liking Parasomnia, or thinking it's regressive, is fair.  You thinking that this is a problem for Dream Theater to solve is, in my opinion, not.  I don't understand why you (and you're not alone in this) have to blame the ARTIST for YOUR failure to connect with their work.

And Kocak is worse; he's absolutely said that DT SHOULD do this and this and this.  If he said "Wow, I wish DT did this and this and this", you never would have heard from me.  But no, he doesn't like where they are now and so all of a sudden THEY sold out, THEY are cheating their craft, THEY are lazy, THEY are this, THEY are that. No, own it, it's YOU. YOU don't like it; you may not like it because it doesn't push the parameters of the instrument, or because the songs are too long, or too loud, or too whatever, but I don't understand why we have to take shots at the band when doing it.  Calling someone lazy, because they don't appear to practice the way YOU want them to?   

And I'm seeing more and more pushback similar to mine.  Fish wrote something tangentially similar in regards to his Official Facebook page:
The official Fish group page can carry on with the legacy and I can post there if I want to throw some illumination on stories.
"I have to admit there's been so much wild speculation and opinion on there that I haven't found it a particularly atractive place to delve into as I don't need the wind ups and there were some ugly posts from a minority that I didn't even want to engage over there."

No, you're not, because when I do that, I'm clear that it's a ME problem, not a Mangini problem.  I've never said he has to do something different, I never said he's lazy, or short-changing his instrument, or regressing...  I owned it. It was ME.  I just didn't connect with it.

How many of those jazz musicians were just taking shots at Louis because he was making different choices?  Or because of jealousy that he was actually being paid?

And again, you clearly do not understand what I'm saying.  Critique all you want; it's not about the criticism, it's not about the lineup, and I wouldn't say I am in any sense an "ardent defender". Dream Theater is far from perfect, and I certainly do not like everything they do.  There's a lot I DON'T like, in fact.  It's about the seemingly incessant need to justify the opinions by demeaning or minimizing the artist.  Everything you wrote about in your last paragraph was about YOU, not the band.  Rather than "the band regressed" why isn't it "you've moved on", or "realized you like an aspect of their work that they have seemingly minimized in recent years"? I personally really don't care for the product placement that has permeated the band in recent years. I understand it, I know why, but it's not a choice I would make; I'm just interested in the music. You will NOT find me taking shots at John, Jordan or Mike for their decisions to monetize their positions, I just choose not to partake.

" can play whatever the fuck he wants and we get the choice to go or not. Full stop."

Indeed...and we can also go to an opinion thread and say why we're not going or why we don't like it or what we wish they would have done differently. Those are perfectly normal and acceptable speech norms in an open forum such as this.

When did I ever say DT has to do something to please me? No one here is doing that and even if they did it would be an irrelevant comment or widely understood as a statement of preference for what the band has or has not done.

You're the only one making this very novel argument that criticism is (supposedly) fine but we've made a dark turn into ordering DT around. Its a bizarre accusation to begin with for reasons Ive stated but the fact that it only surfaces when the criticism is about MP era DT makes it very clear this is only about your desire to remove any scent of negativity around the band now that your guy is back. The total lack of consistency in when you've decided to chime in like this makes it pretty obvious.

If you spent more forum time actually saying *why* you like the Classic Lineup or what you like about the album - really just stating your own opinions about the music like a normal person - instead of pushing cockamamie speech rules in an opinion thread, you'd see most probably agree with your music views and disagree with those who are less smitten with the last year of DT output.

That is the more productive discussion in an opinion thread. What is not is attempts to frame normal statements of criticism as some type of heresy against a specific version of DT.

[KevShmev]

It is a personal choice. I cannot say anything about it. However, I find the "rebrand" to be somewhat insincere considering how he got his accolades in the first place.

To be fair, I was giving my opinion as to why I think he is rebranding himself in that regard, but I don't disagree with your takeaway there.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I agree with this assessment. Based on his past statements, I reckon his self-induced transformation from a technical drummer to a groove one started when he stopped doing drum solos and subsequently, clinics. I view this as a personal choice. However, it is also an excuse to not push yourself further in terms of drumming ability. It is obvious that the "rebrand" is intentional.

Somewhere around ten to fifteen years ago, he gave this interview in which he talked about taking drum lessons and "reinventing" his drumming like Neil Peart did in the 90's and said "maybe when the kids go off to college". I was so excited to hear him say that. He ended up not doing anything about it though.

I also think broadly speaking MP was (still is by many) considered to be at the top of the food chain for fans and people somewhat aware of trends in music at the time. Lots of magazine covers, interviews - hasn't changed much - but what I think is different these days is many more casual and moderately engaged fans are familiar with all of these other amazing drummers due to the rise of social media and sharing platforms.

Mike was always super clear he's not a technical drummer but a lot of people did perceive him to be. What I think has happened is that so many more people are being recommended videos of guys young and old who do have this much more technical approach, so even though Mike never really referred to himself as a feel guy until fairly recently it makes sense to distinguish between his approach and that of basically all the guys invited to audition for the band. That's the other big thing: the band auditioned in a very public way drummers who ARE highly technical, and then hired one of them. The rebranding may just be a thing that the public did for him, and he's now just clarifying 'yeah, my approach is really different from so and so.' He said as much in his Drumeo interview (that he and MM are very different drummers).

[ReaperKK]

I had a conversation with Danny Carey once, overall top dude and because we were in a studio (not a Tool session, for those that are inclined to ask), we were talking about aesthetics and I told him that I felt that metal, specifically, started sounding the same. He told me that when they went to David Bottrill for Aenima, he was reluctant to mix the album because he wasn't a metal music guy and they convinced him by telling them that they didn't want the album to sound like modern metal. Their choices is some of what makes them unique.

Have you ever watched the Animals As Leaders interview with Rick Beato? It was a interesting watch because they spoke about engineering for modern metal and while Matt Garstka is an amazing drummer they still used samples (his own drum samples) for the new record so that their music could stand out among other metal albums. I'll try and find the video and post it, it's a few years old at this point.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Just on the whole "regressing" angle; maybe DT at this point are just concentrating more on writing catchy songs and not necessarily trying to reinvent the whole technicality approach? A View was very technical, if you push it any further you lose people (and some were lost anyway). Parasomnia does a good job of pulling back on that and yet still having plenty of great playing.

I really don't think that's why View is considered a mid tier album. The biggest complaint back then is the same as now: it sounds like DT by the book with nothing new. 

I don't think they were focused on making View super technical and then changed their approach on Parasomnia. The albums sound like they were written by exactly the same bad with a different drummer. Consider this, if you listen to both do you really feel JP's playing changed on Parasomnia? Does he really sound like hes being less technical now? I don't hear much change from anyone to be honest.

Rhythmically things feel a bit different but it's something I think is more subtle to most. But did the fans hear View and think 'it's just too out there for me'? I remember it being the exact opposite for the detractors: it sounded too safe.

[nobloodyname]

I don't think they were focused on making View super technical and then changed their approach on Parasomnia.

I don't know whether they were deliberately focussed on making View super technical but they (the Johns) have certainly spoken about stepping back from that level of technicality because a) it got too much and b) it went over 90% of the audience's heads (I may have got the figure wrong but that was the essence of what JP said).

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I don't know whether they were deliberately focussed on making View super technical but they (the Johns) have certainly spoken about stepping back from that level of technicality because a) it got too much and b) it went over 90% of the audience's heads (I may have got the figure wrong but that was the essence of what JP said).
[/quote

Another interesting way to think about it is if you asked ChatGPT to play you View with MP, and you'd never heard the album before would you conclude it's super technical for DT? I'm honestly not sure. If we were comparing say Octavarium to ToT I'd say for sure there's a difference front to back. But View to Parasomnia? Feels like more or less a similar type of album with a different guy in the chair.

[nobloodyname]

I got all excited for a moment thinking ChatGPT could actually do that

To answer your question, I've no idea. I 'just' hear it as music, honestly.

[efx]

I was hesitant to post in this thread as I don't feel I have a "controversial" opinion per se but it got me thinking.

For a band that has so many absolutely brilliant instrumental sections in their music I have felt that their purely instrumental tracks never really do it for me. I think the only one that I really love, and it's a top 10 overall song for me, is Hells Kitchen.

It's weird to me because so much of the instrumental, composed (not counting the back and forth soloing parts which can drag on for me) sections in their vocal songs are so defining of what I love about the band.

[Kocak]

I also think broadly speaking MP was (still is by many) considered to be at the top of the food chain for fans and people somewhat aware of trends in music at the time. Lots of magazine covers, interviews - hasn't changed much - but what I think is different these days is many more casual and moderately engaged fans are familiar with all of these other amazing drummers due to the rise of social media and sharing platforms.

The magazine covers and interviews are, in actuality, not entirely about his instrumental abilities though. To his credit, MP, more than the other members of Dream Theater, has put considerable and deliberate effort into building the Mike Portnoy brand and has been very successful. He is very passionate about music that he is a fan of, and his approach to his product offerings as a fan has benefited him immensely. On top of Dream Theater's music being just technical enough to still be accessible, he is one of the pioneers of targeting the "musician portion" of a specific fanbase with all the drum performance videos, the little thoughtful gestures and interaction. On top of this, he took the opportunity to insert himself into the network of musicians beyond the realm of prog, which I think was and still is a very smart move: All the photos with members of other bands - for  fans, this is like someone you know hanging out with really cool people.

In the 2000's, he had this interview where he talked about the changing working style of Dream Theater and he mentioned that everything was structured around being able to spend more time with their families which I think is a very sensible thing to do as I think that being a parent overrides everything else but I also think that this change sort of sacrificed his time spent behind the drums, developing his craft and he started leaning towards a more groove oriented approach to the drumkit, which also coincided with the spread of social media and YouTube, and the subsequent sprout of many other talented drummers through increased access to the wider music audience. Around the same time, he also started labelling various drummer awards as "popularity contests" which is actually true.

Mike was always super clear he's not a technical drummer but a lot of people did perceive him to be. What I think has happened is that so many more people are being recommended videos of guys young and old who do have this much more technical approach, so even though Mike never really referred to himself as a feel guy until fairly recently it makes sense to distinguish between his approach and that of basically all the guys invited to audition for the band.

While his reference to himself as a groove drummer might in some way relate to the route Dream Theater took after him, I reckon it is more about him repositioning himself, the "Mike Portnoy brand" within the drumming world, after his split from Dream Theater. He knows that he isn't about putting in eight hours of practice a day to do something that pushes the limits of drumming.

What sort of worked against him, I reckon is that he still wanted to appeal to those fans within the music world who are after a more "instrumentally proficient" take on "listenable content" but was unable to recapture them because those people have more choices and he has competition within that realm. I also understand his desire of musical diversification after many years of doing the same thing, but the stuff that he tried did not succeed because he sort of tried to do the same thing with a bunch of musicians who were doing that same thing before him.

This is something that MP and many other musicians use to expand their fanbases: Transitive popularity. This is what gave us all the "supergroups" and such but many of these things do not work anymore because most of these musicians do not understand that music isn't for the sake of music anymore, it is content to be consumed. You cannot expect to leverage the existing popularity of a group of musicians by using derivative material.

That's the other big thing: the band auditioned in a very public way drummers who ARE highly technical, and then hired one of them.

This, in hindsight, might have been a mistake in approach for Dream Theater now that I think about it. JP had mentioned that he went online and looked at who the fanbase was suggesting and he also got some suggestions from a few people that he had talked to. JP, up until that point, had worked with a grand total of 2 drummers for official releases that he had creative power over: Mike Portnoy for Dream Theater and LTE albums and Dave DiCenso for his first solo album. There have been others such as Jeff Campitelli for the G3 - Live in Tokyo release but I am not counting those. So, his frame of reference for what kind of drummer MP is, is rather narrow because he has very little to compare him to. The way he talks about music makes it very obvious that he has a very guitar-centric approach. So, when replacing Portnoy, I think that some of the criteria in their head were the wrong ones. All of those drummers, including Mike Mangini are very different drummers but from what they said during the drummer audition interviews and thereafter, I got the feeling that they were not actually looking for someone very different despite auditioning very different drummers and this was partially because of the narrow frame of reference. As a result, we got ADTOE, which is a Portnoy album, without Portnoy and it took them a very long time to integrate Mangini to the creative process because they did not know what to do with him. They failed to figure out how to properly utilise Mangini over the course of his tenure with the band.

Have you ever watched the Animals As Leaders interview with Rick Beato? It was a interesting watch because they spoke about engineering for modern metal and while Matt Garstka is an amazing drummer they still used samples (his own drum samples) for the new record so that their music could stand out among other metal albums.

I'm guessing that you are referring to this interview? If so, I just got to the section that you have referenced but I understood it more as they did not want to be so different from other modern metal and Matt sort of looks like he isn't entirely happy about it?

Now, this is a point of contention. I am guilty of this myself. I have been asked to trigger snares and replace sounds in the studio and I had to do it as a hired gun. This has gotten us to the point that most listeners don't know what a snare drum actually sounds like. It is often the case that I work on a certain sound in the studio, only to be asked to use a sample thereafter. It hurts me to do it, most of the time, it serves no creative purpose other than uniformity within the scope of the general music output of our time.

I got a lot of backlash for criticising MM's drum sound here but I know that most of his drum sound that we hear isn't actually his drum sound or a heavily processed sample version of his drums. I can hear it. Knowing MP's approach to his drum sound, I would guess that he wouldn't entirely be happy about the way his drums sound on Parasomnia as it is very heavily processed and triggered. We are not hearing MP's actual performance.

I don't know whether they were deliberately focussed on making View super technical but they (the Johns) have certainly spoken about stepping back from that level of technicality because a) it got too much and b) it went over 90% of the audience's heads (I may have got the figure wrong but that was the essence of what JP said).

I don't know what the John's said about AWFTotW or their subsequent approach to Parasomnia but I think that diagnosis is wrong. The problem with the former album wasn't the technicality, it was memorability. There were almost no memorable parts. Technicality for the sake of technicality usually results in a bore-fest and the key here is to be able to create memorable parts.

[Herrick]

I really don't think that's why View is considered a mid tier album. The biggest complaint back then is the same as now: it sounds like DT by the book with nothing new. 

I don't think they were focused on making View super technical and then changed their approach on Parasomnia. The albums sound like they were written by exactly the same bad with a different drummer. Consider this, if you listen to both do you really feel JP's playing changed on Parasomnia? Does he really sound like hes being less technical now? I don't hear much change from anyone to be honest.

Rhythmically things feel a bit different but it's something I think is more subtle to most. But did the fans hear View and think 'it's just too out there for me'? I remember it being the exact opposite for the detractors: it sounded too safe.

"By the numbers" is the sort of criticism I remember hearing when A View From The Top Of The World came out. I don't even remember the album being that technical. It just sounds like Dream Theater. But at this point, that sort of technicality is a "by the numbers" kinda thing for the band. It's a criticism I agree with but I don't see it as a Negative.

I also agree about Parasomnia not being a huge leap forwards or backwards compared to the previous album.

[TAC]

I don't consider View "by the numbers" by any stretch. It's Dream Theater for sure, but it's a unique album in their catalog. I don't think there's another one like it. And they definitely set out to make a technical album, and I for one thought they needed it.

Kocak is on track about its memorability, and I think it's the root of most people's disconnectedness, but I find plenty of memorable moments.

[Cool Chris]

I never thought of View as either 'by the numbers' of overly 'technical*.'

*Goddamn searching "technical" on this page returns 52 results!!

[Misirlou]

I don't consider View "by the numbers" by any stretch. It's Dream Theater for sure, but it's a unique album in their catalog. I don't think there's another one like it. And they definitely set out to make a technical album, and I for one thought they needed it.

Kocak is on track about its memorability, and I think it's the root of most people's disconnectedness, but I find plenty of memorable moments.

I think it´s the only one without a ballad. Hell, even Train of Thought has one.

[MidnightSlice]

What does by the numbers really even mean? How many artists actually make music that is in the razor thin area between "by the numbers" and "not by the numbers"? It seems if fans don't like the music then they put a variation of one of these labels on many established artists' output.

I guess if that floats your boat then keep doing it.

[MidnightSlice]

We are not hearing MP's actual performance.

Would MP say this? If not, is he lying or delusional?

[durga2112]

I think it´s the only one without a ballad. Hell, even Train of Thought has one.

Close - When Dream and Day Unite doesn't have a ballad either. But your point still stands - both albums are worlds apart from each other.

[Kocak]

Would MP say this? If not, is he lying or delusional?

No, never.

And he wouldn't be lying or delusional.

The thing is, I think, that this is the most processed MP performance that we have heard on a record so far. The A7X record comes close, but nowhere near as this one. The OSI records have some processed bits but that is for creative purposes. SDOIT has some creative processing too.

What I mean by this is that this is perfected to a degree that the human element of drumming is almost completely taken out of the sounds. Each hit, each sound is exactly the same. I can take MP's individual samples, save him the effort of having to record the drum parts and program/process what is heard on the album and you wouldn't be able to hear the difference. From what I can gather by listening to his catalog of releases, he prefers a more natural drum sound.

One of the things that I like about the making of videos is that I got to hear the unprocessed sound of MP's drums, in addition to having used those exact drums in the studio before, so I have a pretty good reference for what they actually sound like.

Edit: Upon the reminder by fellow member efx, I have to add that I was thinking of the post-FII Tama era sound of MP and not the earlier albums when I stated that Parasomnia is the most processed MP sound that we have.  I apologise for the early morning blunder.

[efx]

I agree with Kocak. I'm not totally bothered by how they sound on the record but it's the most processed MP performance after the fact since I&W (which I don't mind either sonically).

It's interesting comparing the album takes to the Drumeo stuff, certainly different.

[Kocak]

I agree with Kocak. I'm not totally bothered by how they sound on the record but it's the most processed MP performance after the fact since I&W (which I don't mind either sonically).

It's interesting comparing the album takes to the Drumeo stuff, certainly different.

Ah, to be absolutely honest, I wasn't even thinking of the early 90's records. I wrote what I wrote with the POST-FII era Tama drum sound of MP but yeah, you are right. I apologise for my early morning brain fart.