Just listened to A Change of Seasons for the first time.

[manticore999]

Manticore999 - your posts are so out of touch with reality that if it wasn't you, I would suspect transparent trolling.

Yes, Heaven forbid I should have an opinion that's different from yours.  I think maybe you should call the thought police and have me arrested.  Maybe, once you grow up a bit, you'll understand that it's ok to have independent thought. 

[Orbert]

It's not that your opinion is different.  It's that it seems to be unfounded, based on a false premise.

You keep insisting that James is struggling, screaming certain lines because he "clearly can't hit them" and that's just plain incorrect.  He has no trouble hitting the notes.  He's hitting them exactly the way he has chosen to, and in a way which is perfect within the context of the story.

Many people have pointed this out, and you refuse to respond.  I've asked you questions point blank, and you refuse to respond.  This is a discussion board; we're here to discuss, but you seem interested only in spouting off and ignoring what everyone else says.  That's not discussion.  I don't think Dream Team is the one who needs to grow up.

[manticore999]

What's to discuss?  When I listen to it he's clearly struggling to hit a note and not quite doing it.  I have friends that feel the same way when they hear it.  You're the one who refuses to believe that me and others might think he's not all that good a singer - but, then again, no one is when they're outside their range.  You'll never 'argue' me into thinking he's doing something that I clearly believe he's not.  And I'm not going to 'argue' you into agreeing with me.   I'm expressing an opinion, as you are, and there just isn't a right one or a wrong one.

[Cedar redaC]

Just to break the tension.

[Orbert]

What's to discuss?  When I listen to it he's clearly struggling to hit a note and not quite doing it.  I have friends that feel the same way when they hear it.  You're the one who refuses to believe that me and others might think he's not all that good a singer - but, then again, no one is when they're outside their range.  You'll never 'argue' me into thinking he's doing something that I clearly believe he's not.  And I'm not going to 'argue' you into agreeing with me.   I'm expressing an opinion, as you are, and there just isn't a right one or a wrong one.

Oh, for fuck's sake, did you fail junior high reading comprehension or something?  You're perfectly entitled to believe that he's not a great singer.  That's your opinion.  But if your basis for that is because he can't hit certain notes, or has to "scream" to hit them, then I'm just wondering how you explain how he hits notes even higher than that.  I've asked you to consider that he's chosen to sing the notes that way as a stylistic choice, and you just say "No, it's because he can't hit the notes."  That's not opinion; that's just something you've decided and refuse to consider any other explanation.  I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to discuss.  You know, ask questions, get answers, share information, enlighten, learn?  You should try it sometime.

[hefdaddy42]

Orbert is right, this is a DISCUSSION forum.  If you aren't interested in actually discussing anything, then I'm not sure why you're here.

[MoraWintersoul]

manticore999: a person who's never paid attention to Learning To Live, The Killing Hand on L@TM, or, for comparison from the same era, Perfect Strangers. He hits way higher notes than that routinely.

And trust me, James struggling to hit a note or having it not turn out the way he intended it to during his injury period sounds way different from the "screaming" (which is actually just a little grittier singing) on ACOS.

No one says you have to like it, but struggling to hit the notes is not why his singing is gritty there. James said that, during the injury period, his voice sometimes behaved and sometimes it didn't; this was one of the days it have behaved or else - guess what - they wouldn't have recorded it. No one is mad enough to put a recording of unsatisfactory quality when they have enough time in the studio to brush it up.

[manticore999]

What's to discuss?  When I listen to it he's clearly struggling to hit a note and not quite doing it.  I have friends that feel the same way when they hear it.  You're the one who refuses to believe that me and others might think he's not all that good a singer - but, then again, no one is when they're outside their range.  You'll never 'argue' me into thinking he's doing something that I clearly believe he's not.  And I'm not going to 'argue' you into agreeing with me.   I'm expressing an opinion, as you are, and there just isn't a right one or a wrong one.

Oh, for fuck's sake, did you fail junior high reading comprehension or something?  You're perfectly entitled to believe that he's not a great singer.  That's your opinion.  But if your basis for that is because he can't hit certain notes, or has to "scream" to hit them, then I'm just wondering how you explain how he hits notes even higher than that.  I've asked you to consider that he's chosen to sing the notes that way as a stylistic choice, and you just say "No, it's because he can't hit the notes."  That's not opinion; that's just something you've decided and refuse to consider any other explanation.  I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to discuss.  You know, ask questions, get answers, share information, enlighten, learn?  You should try it sometime.

I'm not interested in other songs where he may have hit higher notes than that.  I'm talking about this one song.  I don't have to explain anything - it's an OPINION.  There's no explanation for an opinion.  You can try to explain all you want.  What I (and others) hear is a guy desperately trying to hit a note and really struggling with it.  You don't hear that.  That's cool. 

When you grow up you'll find that many times people disagree with you, no matter how much you argue.  It's called the real word.  It's not a half-bad place.  You should visit it sometime.

[The Letter M]

When you grow up you'll find that many times people disagree with you, no matter how much you argue.  It's called the real word.  It's not a half-bad place.  You should visit it sometime.

Unfortunately, DTF is NOT the real world - it's a community of Dream Theater fans, and the majority of them happen to enjoy "A Change Of Seasons", singing and all, so you'll find that many times, people with opinions that differ greatly from the majority will be called out to explain their reasoning and thoughts in order for the greater populace to try and understand such differing opinions, whether they like them/agree with them or not.

-Marc.

[KevShmev]

What's to discuss?  When I listen to it he's clearly struggling to hit a note and not quite doing it. I have friends that feel the same way when they hear it. You're the one who refuses to believe that me and others might think he's not all that good a singer - but, then again, no one is when they're outside their range.  You'll never 'argue' me into thinking he's doing something that I clearly believe he's not.  And I'm not going to 'argue' you into agreeing with me.   I'm expressing an opinion, as you are, and there just isn't a right one or a wrong one.

That's funny, because I have 49 friends who had never heard DT before, and when I played them A Change for Seasons, 36 of them expressed verbally what a great the singer was doing of hitting all of his notes.  Prove me wrong. 

[BlobVanDam]

Oh yeah? Well I haven't made any of my friends listen to ACOS, so I have zero first-hand feedback to offer on the subject. Prove me wrong.

[MoraWintersoul]

I'm not interested in other songs where he may have hit higher notes than that.  I'm talking about this one song.  I don't have to explain anything - it's an OPINION.  There's no explanation for an opinion.  You can try to explain all you want.  What I (and others) hear is a guy desperately trying to hit a note and really struggling with it.  You don't hear that.  That's cool.

Dude, it's just that, if he HAS hit higher notes before, what would make him, AND the producers and the band go all: "Oh damn, struggling with that note today even though you can* hit it. Oh well, we can't possibly be bothered to record vocals some other time, let's just leave it in and hope it will pass for rough singing."

* It's called a range. It means that you don't generally run out of high notes in only a few years. He's had his injury and problem, which decreased his range. That happened on days where it's not recommendable to go into the studio at all. Because they wouldn't bother wasting studio time and their money recording stuff when their singer clearly isn't having a good day. Because why the fuck would one do that?

[bosk1]

Manticore, I suggest you take a moment to settle yourself down before the next time you hit the post button.  The constant arguing, baiting, and refusal to recognize other points of view are against forum rules.  And personal attacks like the following are not acceptable:

When you grow up you'll find that many times people disagree with you, no matter how much you argue.  It's called the real word.  It's not a half-bad place.  You should visit it sometime.

It either stops immediately, or you take an involuntary vacation to reconsider your forum conduct.

[BlobVanDam]

Manticore, I suggest you take a moment to settle yourself down before the next time you hit the post button.  The constant arguing, baiting, and refusal to recognize other points of view are against forum rules.  And personal attacks like the following are not acceptable:

When you grow up you'll find that many times people disagree with you, no matter how much you argue.  It's called the real word.  It's not a half-bad place.  You should visit it sometime.

It either stops immediately, or you take an involuntary vacation to reconsider your forum conduct.

And that's the edited version. You should have seen what it said before the edit!


Oh wait, you probably can. Even better.

[bosk1]

[wasteland]

Wait, can you really do that? I guess that the Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural...

[Dublagent66]

It wasn't that it was a lot to absorb, I think it was more of a case where it had been SO built up and it was kind of "Meh, is THAT what the fuss is all about?!" for me.  I won't give up, but for right now I still think Octavarium tops it.

I know the feeling.

I mean, not about ACoS, which I actually heard before coming to the DTF, but.  In general.  It sucks having hype ruin something.

I might have to let it grow on me but yeah - HUGE disappointment after the colossal build-up it's gotten in the fanbase.

Let me know how the growth is coming along.  I think you'll appreciate it the more you listen.  I can understand why you think 8VM tops it.  Great song, but for me, they are two very different animals.  I think it also may depend on which one you heard first.  I grew to love ACOS 10 years before 8VM existed, but now I love them both.   

[DebraKadabra]

That's a really good point - I heard Octavarium first, but I had to let Octavarium grow too.  I plan to have another listen to ACOS soon, so I'll keep y'all updated.

[WheyWaffles]

After I first heard ACoS, I'd wake up an hour early for school just to listen to it a couple more times.  Then I'd stay home from school and do something else.

[missedthepoint]

I got ACOS when it came out and it grew on me very quickly. I remember being a little upset than KM was no longer there
I hadn't listened to it for a while when I saw this thread but have been listening to it a lot since.
Man what an awesome song. I mean i already knew it was but i seem to have a greater appreciation for it now. I'm not down on DS anymore, in fact I think he does an awesome job with all the key parts. And his sounds are cool too, much better than on FII imo.

Anyway what I really want to say here is thanks for getting me to listen to this masterpiece again