What's Everyone's Problem with Systematic Chaos?

[JimmyJava]

I love Train of Thought and the agressive feel to the whole album, cept for Vacant which is a nice breather. It's definitely an underrated album. The only downside would be Stream of Consciousness. I think alot has to do with the fact that they recorded the Budokan DVD during that tour and obviously played several of the ToT songs during that show. It gets more interesting when you see them play the new songs in good quality and you can really focus on what going on musically.

[Jaffa]

The only downside would be Stream of Consciousness.

We are not a match.

[RaiseTheKnife]

I really like the lyrics.  Its not easy telling an imaginative story in song format, so I applaud this effort.   My impression at the time was that the lyrics on SC were an improvement from ToT and Octavarium.

However, the song writing is not as dynamic or interesting as other albums (and JP's scratchy guitar  tone sounds the same in every song), so overall SC gets a lower rating from me.

[GasparXR]

Repentance and The Dark Eternal Night are amazing songs. ITPOE is pretty good too, but the rest of the album isn't any where near as good, which makes the album inconsistent. I also think the song order is far from ideal. Going from Repentance to POW sounds really awkward. It would be MUCH better if Repentance was placed inbetween TMOLS and ITPOE part 2.

[Zook]

Or just remove POW completely.

[Scorpion]

Or just remove POW completely.

no u

[hefdaddy42]

Or just remove POW completely.

Well, that would help a lot.

[perfey]

ITPOE pt. 1 is the best song on the album. The other songs have qualities but should had a little more time working on them. Some parts of them are good, like the intro and first part of ITPOE pt. 2. Skip the instrumental parts in some songs like the instrumental in TMOLS and CM and make a seperat instrumental track of them. Then I would like the album better.

[darkshade]

Or just remove POW completely.

This. And combine ITPOE into one track and end the album with TMOLS.

[Ben_Jamin]

PoW has amazing musical ideas and vocals.

Constant Motion on the other hand only has the cool whammy bar solo thing. I rarely listen to it, Forsaken as well, it reminds me of Static X cold and Evanescence bring me to life. Ha, that just made me realize the whole album is riffed wit inspiration.

[The King in Crimson]

Both SC and ToT are incredibly weak entries in DT's discog.  Weak as in I find about half the songs on both albums to be skippable.  Both have some stellar tracks though and neither is my least favorite DT album.

ITPOE (both 1 and 2) is pretty great.  Honestly, I love the whole song.  Yes, it's cheesy and over the top, but it's still awesome to sing along to and crank in the car.
Forsaken is a good straightforward song.  I like it.
Constant Motion sucks ass.
The Dark Eternal Night is pure cornball cheese. It's also fun to crank in the car.
Repentance is very good and gets some undeserved shit.
Prophets of War blows.  I used to like it, but it's aged horribly.  James just sounds bored and the Muse influence is too obvious.
The Ministry of Lost Souls would be a fantastic track but 1) It's too long and 2) The instrumental section is a bit out of place.  As it is, it's merely good.

As I Am is a great, straightforward metal song.  Nice way to open the album.
This Dying Soul is too long, with too much wank.
Endless Sacrifice would be good, but the instrumental section is godawful.
Honor Thy Father is a good song, but nothing more. If I never heard it again, I dunno if I'd care.
Vacant is short.
Stream of Consciousness is kinda cool, but one of my least favorite DT instrumentals.  Just kinda wanders.
In The Name Of God is a good song, but it always seems a bit too long.  My mind wanders during it.

I think I like SC more than Train of Thought, but it really depends on the day.

[Zook]

Endless Sacrifice would be good, but the instrumental section is godawful.

[Adami]

Endless Sacrifice would be good, but the instrumental section is godawful.

Yea, what an odd statement.


.....like taking away the instrumental section would save it.

[Ruba]

Or just remove POW completely.

Endless Sacrifice would be good, but the instrumental section is godawful.

I wouldn't call it godawful, but that part, where Rudess changes keyboard sounds once in a second is the most cringe-worthy DT moment ever. Solos are pretty cool though.

[TheGreatPretender]

I wouldn't call it godawful, but that part, where Rudess changes keyboard sounds once in a second is the most cringe-worthy DT moment ever. Solos are pretty cool though.

No way, that was one of the coolest instrumental moments they've ever had.

[SeRoX]

Or just remove POW completely.

No.

[BlobVanDam]

I wouldn't call it godawful, but that part, where Rudess changes keyboard sounds once in a second is the most cringe-worthy DT moment ever. Solos are pretty cool though.

No way, that was one of the coolest instrumental moments they've ever had.

I'm not even a fan of the song, and I completely agree. A very fun little section, and the standout part of the song for me.

[Ruba]

I'm just "urgggggghhhh" every time it comes. It is so out of place in this universe.

[hefdaddy42]

I wouldn't call it godawful, but that part, where Rudess changes keyboard sounds once in a second is the most cringe-worthy DT moment ever. Solos are pretty cool though.

No way, that was one of the coolest instrumental moments they've ever had.

I'm not even a fan of the song, and I completely agree. A very fun little section, and the standout part of the song for me.

This.  Not a fan of the song as a whole, but I like that part.

[Ħ]

I call that the circus part. I don't mind it, but Endless Sacrifice as a whole is sick.

[robwebster]

and also... they've split the best song on the CD 

IMO, that was for the best. The first part is a fantastic opener, and the second is a fantastic closer. If they got lumped together the flow of the album would have been terrible.

I agree that it was for the best, but for a completely different reason. Specifically, because, Part One is a spectacular song that I wouldn't love nearly as much were it bogged down by the sprawling goop of Part Two.

Part One is a top ten DT track. Part Two? Top fifty. Possibly. Dream Theater have a lot of very good songs. Upward of fifty.

That said, I do like Systematic Chaos. While it's not the most high-and-artful statement in Dream Theater's catalogue, nor the most technically inventive, nor necessarily among the most creative, it oozes character. It combusts, fizzles along. A song like Constant Motion isn't a statement, it's not the bare soul of a tortured artist - exactly the opposite, it nigh-on celebrates OCD with a short, sharp, hi-octane burst of energy. Little explosions.

Systematic Chaos isn't perfect, but it's Dream Theater at, arguably, their most entertaining. Cos I don't listen to Dream Theater for the agony. I actually find the pretentious pseudo-meaningful babble of some of their earlier stuff kind of banal - like a moody, sullen pout. I'm sure some of it was sincere at the time, it was a turbulent chapter of their career, but to take a song I bloody love... Under a Glass Moon! Top ten, easily, but the lyrics are practically alphabet soup. It's very hollow. Imagery for the sake of imagery, because that's what progressive rock bands do. It doesn't say anything. As they've grown up, the band don't feel like they have to immaturely play at being grown-ups. Not that I'm calling Systematic Chaos sophisticated in any sense of the word - I just think that it's refreshing that they're not playing at it.

Fun little album.

[The King in Crimson]

I wouldn't call it godawful, but that part, where Rudess changes keyboard sounds once in a second is the most cringe-worthy DT moment ever. Solos are pretty cool though.

No way, that was one of the coolest instrumental moments they've ever had.

I'm not even a fan of the song, and I completely agree. A very fun little section, and the standout part of the song for me.

Yeah, it's a 'standout out' in that it doesn't remotely fit in with the rest of the song.  IMO, that part just brings the rest of the song crashing down around it.

[BlobVanDam]

I wouldn't call it godawful, but that part, where Rudess changes keyboard sounds once in a second is the most cringe-worthy DT moment ever. Solos are pretty cool though.

No way, that was one of the coolest instrumental moments they've ever had.

I'm not even a fan of the song, and I completely agree. A very fun little section, and the standout part of the song for me.

Yeah, it's a 'standout out' in that it doesn't remotely fit in with the rest of the song.  IMO, that part just brings the rest of the song crashing down around it.

Sometimes I wonder if anyone here has actually listened to Dream Theater. Like a breakneck speed Sonic the Hedgehog solo really fits with the rest of Metropolis either.

[Adami]

The Metropolis solos fit fine because the song has no, and never try to convey any emotion what so ever.

While ES is completely devoid of emotion as well, it is trying to convey an emotional story. The instrumental section kind of hurts that idea.

[The King in Crimson]

I wouldn't call it godawful, but that part, where Rudess changes keyboard sounds once in a second is the most cringe-worthy DT moment ever. Solos are pretty cool though.

No way, that was one of the coolest instrumental moments they've ever had.

I'm not even a fan of the song, and I completely agree. A very fun little section, and the standout part of the song for me.

Yeah, it's a 'standout out' in that it doesn't remotely fit in with the rest of the song.  IMO, that part just brings the rest of the song crashing down around it.

Sometimes I wonder if anyone here has actually listened to Dream Theater. Like a breakneck speed Sonic the Hedgehog solo really fits with the rest of Metropolis either.

Actually, I don't think Metropolis is 'all that' either.

Most of the rest of I&W is much better than that song.

[orcus116]

Agreed.

[RuRoRul]

I love Endless Sacrifice and its instrumental section - but it's in spite of that bit, not because of it.

As to the original question, I don't have a problem with Systematic Chaos. I probably rank it a lot lower in DT's discography now than I used to, but In The Presence Of Enemies is one of their best songs, in the same league as the other ~20 minute songs (although it doesn't seem to be regarded that way on this forum), and it is a solid album. My biggest "problem" with it would be that most of the quality of the album is concentrated in its two best songs, with most of the others being average or below (I do appreciate every song on the album but some songs have got to be below average, even if I still quite like them). Of course those two songs do take up over half the album so it perhaps doesn't make sense to complain when I consider over half the album to be great, but it still comes across as 2 great songs and 5 average or below ones, so if I don't want to listen to those particular 2 songs there's not much to draw me to the album.

The only bit of the album I don't like much is the ending of Repentance, which I feel goes on far too long. Constant Motion, Forsaken and Prophets Of War I like, but they're far from DT's best and they're all pretty unusual for DT so I feel I'd have to be in a specific mood to want to hear them, which I rarely am.

[IdoSC]

I personally have 2 problems with that album: first, it's leaning towards the half (third?) of Dream Theater's style that I like less. Don't get me wrong, I love Metal like hell and I even appreciate the kind of Metal DT went for in that album, but it simply could be better.

Secondly, the low points of this album, for me, are some of the lowest points in DT's career in general. I rarely get back to Repentance or Constant Motion no matter what the situation is.

[Pols Voice]

Endless Sacrifice is one of DT's best songs, and I have no problem with that zany Rudess bit. I've noticed that whenever bands attempt something fun or wacky, it usually gets a backlash. Unless it's Frank Zappa.

[robwebster]

I wouldn't call it godawful, but that part, where Rudess changes keyboard sounds once in a second is the most cringe-worthy DT moment ever. Solos are pretty cool though.

No way, that was one of the coolest instrumental moments they've ever had.

I'm not even a fan of the song, and I completely agree. A very fun little section, and the standout part of the song for me.

Yeah, it's a 'standout out' in that it doesn't remotely fit in with the rest of the song.  IMO, that part just brings the rest of the song crashing down around it.

Sometimes I wonder if anyone here has actually listened to Dream Theater. Like a breakneck speed Sonic the Hedgehog solo really fits with the rest of Metropolis either.

Actually, I don't think Metropolis is 'all that' either.

Most of the rest of I&W is much better than that song.

Agreed.

Make that three!

[Adami]

Endless Sacrifice is one of DT's best songs, and I have no problem with that zany Rudess bit. I've noticed that whenever bands attempt something fun or wacky, it usually gets a backlash. Unless it's Frank Zappa.

It depends on the context. Fun isn't bad. Fun in the middle of a serious song is generally not as good, especially one that is supposed to be emotional and somber.


I mean if I were to try to figure out the story of Endless Sacrifice, it would be that JP is in a hotel room and misses his wife a whole lot, so he decides to head on over to a local circus to boost his spirits before rocking out at a Linkin Park show.

See, that's a story I don't care about one bit.

[BlobVanDam]

I wouldn't call it godawful, but that part, where Rudess changes keyboard sounds once in a second is the most cringe-worthy DT moment ever. Solos are pretty cool though.

No way, that was one of the coolest instrumental moments they've ever had.

I'm not even a fan of the song, and I completely agree. A very fun little section, and the standout part of the song for me.

Yeah, it's a 'standout out' in that it doesn't remotely fit in with the rest of the song.  IMO, that part just brings the rest of the song crashing down around it.

Sometimes I wonder if anyone here has actually listened to Dream Theater. Like a breakneck speed Sonic the Hedgehog solo really fits with the rest of Metropolis either.

Actually, I don't think Metropolis is 'all that' either.

Most of the rest of I&W is much better than that song.

Oh boy, I think it's time for bosk to revoke some DT fan cards!

[TheGreatPretender]

Oh boy, I think it's time for bosk to revoke some DT fan cards!

You should revoke their eardrums for good measure, while you're at it.

[Buddyhunter1]

I mean if I were to try to figure out the story of Endless Sacrifice, it would be that JP is in a hotel room and misses his wife a whole lot, so he decides to head on over to a local circus to boost his spirits before rocking out at a Linkin Park show.

But yeah, Endless Sacrifice is awesome, ESPECIALLY the instrumental section.

[Perpetual Change]

Oh boy, I think it's time for bosk to revoke some DT fan cards!

Yeah-- yours, for thinking ADTOE is the worst of the last three DT albums