Polymeter in Dream Theater

[Implode]

So was trying to think of times where DT plays in polymeter. So far the only two I can think of are:

- The first keyboard solo in Learning to Live
- Fatal Tragedy when the keyboard plays in 4 while everyone else is in 6. (The Meshuggah Riff)

I'm sure there has to be some in TDOE, but I don't know any specifics. Any more to add to the list?

[BlobVanDam]

The first one that comes to mind is Beyond This Life, during the instrumental section.

[Sketchy]

If you mean that keyboard solo in Beyond This Life, is that just polymetric? It sounds xenochronic to me (especially as it is meant to be inspired by a Zappa solo and he was constantly doing that stuff).

FYI: xenochrony - when people play in different meters and different tempos at the same time.

[rumborak]

I don't know. I often measure a distinct increase in tachyon emissions in certain songs, but I might be wrong.

rumborak

[Adami]

I don't know. I often measure a distinct increase in tachyon emissions in certain songs, but I might be wrong.

rumborak

I hear on the next CD they plan on having inverse tachyon emissions. We should hear about it sometime 5 years ago.

[Stonestef]

I think (THINK) that MP does something on the outro of Home (12:15-12:22 if you check it on YouTube). It just gives me that impression but I never examined it.

[Adami]

I think (THINK) that MP does something on the outro of Home (12:15-12:22 if you check it on YouTube). It just gives me that impression but I never examined it.

I'm pretty sure it's in a crazy signature like 19/16 but I don't think there's any polymeter.

[DebraKadabra]

I don't know. I often measure a distinct increase in tachyon emissions in certain songs, but I might be wrong.

rumborak

I hear on the next CD they plan on having inverse tachyon emissions. We should hear about it sometime 5 years ago.

[rumborak]

Yeah, DT doesn't really do polymeters all that much. Planet X does it.

rumborak

[Elite]

Yeah, DT doesn't really do polymeters all that much. Planet X does it.

rumborak

Planet X is hugely underrated.

[RaiseTheKnife]

Ummm, Raise the Knife is a masterful example of polymeter.  The song crescendos into a section where almost every instrument is playing in a different meter or pattern. (plus where else are you gonna get a full rest measure in 5/4 time?)   But it occurs all throughout the DT catalogue.

[Adami]

Ummm, Raise the Knife is a masterful example of polymeter.  The song crescendos into a section where almost every instrument is playing in a different meter or pattern. (plus where else are you gonna get a full rest measure in 5/4 time?)   But it occurs all throughout the DT catalogue.

When does that happen? Not the pause.

[theseoafs]

Nah, DT doesn't do a lot of polymeter.  I wouldn't even call the keyboard solo in LTL polymeter, though Fatal Tragedy is a good (albeit simple) example.

Ummm, Raise the Knife is a masterful example of polymeter.  The song crescendos into a section where almost every instrument is playing in a different meter or pattern. (plus where else are you gonna get a full rest measure in 5/4 time?)   But it occurs all throughout the DT catalogue.

When?  If it's the atmospheric guitar solo part before the pause/last chorus you're talking about, no, that's not polymetric.

[Priest of Syrinx]

Yeah, DT doesn't really do polymeters all that much. Planet X does it.

rumborak

Planet X is hugely underrated.

I hope someday that Planet X is rated enough to be given a name.

[Implode]

I wouldn't even call the keyboard solo in LTL polymeter

I wouldn't either, but Jordan's transcription says it is.



And also I realized that I forgot the Meshuggah riff in TDOE as well.

[Mosh]

No it doesn't. Polymeters and polyrhythms are NOT the same.

[ResultsMayVary]

The first one that comes to mind is Beyond This Life, during the instrumental section.

My first thought as well. That section is crazy.

[Adami]

The first one that comes to mind is Beyond This Life, during the instrumental section.

My first thought as well. That section is crazy.

The part where JP is playing whatever time signature and MP keeps it in 4/4? Meh.

[ResultsMayVary]

The first one that comes to mind is Beyond This Life, during the instrumental section.

My first thought as well. That section is crazy.

The part where JP is playing whatever time signature and MP keeps it in 4/4? Meh.

I understand its not too hard to play or know after a few listens. It just sounds wild and chaotic. I should have said that in place of crazy.

[Adami]

Don't get me wrong, I've done the exact same thing in my music. But I'm not a 10th of the musician MP is.


If he REALLY wanted to go nuts, he could have thrown a 6/8 beat over it. That would have been confusing as hell.

[RaiseTheKnife]

No it doesn't. Polymeters and polyrhythms are NOT the same.

I stand corrected then.

[Mosh]

No it doesn't. Polymeters and polyrhythms are NOT the same.

I stand corrected then.

I remember seeing a really good polyrhythms explanation on youtube by Mike Portnoy awhile back. I think he used Voices to demonstrate. I'll look for it later, unless someone finds it before me.

[Sketchy]

The first one that comes to mind is Beyond This Life, during the instrumental section.

My first thought as well. That section is crazy.

The part where JP is playing whatever time signature and MP keeps it in 4/4? Meh.

Wait, yep. I thought you guys meant what the keys are doing. Yeah, the johns are in 17/8 and MP is in 4/4.

[Implode]

ACK! You're right! I know the difference between polyrhythm and polymeter. I guess my brain was replacing that word in the text.

[GasparXR]

There's not TOO many examples of polymeter in DT's music, but a good chunk of them come from SFAM, namely Fatal Tragedy, Beyond This Life, and I THINK The Dance of Eternity. I enjoy them when they sound good, and in these cases they do. It wouldn't hurt to hear some more on DT12 if they fit well.

[RaiseTheKnife]

What about New Millenium?  The clean guitar in the intro (and middle section) starts a 8th beat after the keys, creating an overlapping count.  I think the meters are the same though, but would this be considered polymeter anyway?

[Mosh]

What about New Millenium?  The clean guitar in the intro (and middle section) starts a 8th beat after the keys, creating an overlapping count.  I think the meters are the same though, but would this be considered polymeter anyway?

Nah. They're both in 8th notes and 4/4 still, it kinda gives a 16th note effect.

[Ħ]

What is a polymeter?

[Implode]

I really have a hard time explaining it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(music)#Polymeter

[Connoc]

My favorite example of polymeter to help show what it can sound like and how it's different from polyrhythm comes from Rush's "Jacob's
Ladder"

The intro until :46 is in an alternating ostinato of 5/4 and 6/4. Drums/bass/guitar all playing strictly within those meters. THEN at :46, while the guitar continues the 5/4 6/4 ostinato, the vocals and keyboards start playing in 4/4. It displaces the downbeats, wonks your expectations and thus creates the tense mood of the 'cloud battle' that Ged is singing about. Rockin'

A much less obvious example from the Dream Theater catalog does come in Fatal Tragedy. Right before the 'shrink and grow' at 4:11, Jordan plays in 4/4 whilst the other boys play a 6/4 pattern under him it only lasts for four measures of Jordan's rhythm, then he switches to the arpeggios in 6/4. Still, it's there.

[Adami]

A much less obvious example from the Dream Theater catalog does come in Fatal Tragedy. Right before the 'shrink and grow' at 4:11, Jordan plays in 4/4 whilst the other boys play a 6/4 pattern under him it only lasts for four measures of Jordan's rhythm, then he switches to the arpeggios in 6/4. Still, it's there.

Not sure how it's less obvious since it's pretty much the only example we've all agreed on.

[Connoc]

Sorry, I didn't mean less obvious to you or to the members of the forum--I meant less obvious to someone who's never heard of polymeter or listened to much prog at all. The Fatal Tragedy example is a bit chaotic because the 6/4 pulse has all those tied sixteenths and scarcely feels like a strong 6/4

The rush example, to me, is more more explicit because there's less going on.