Dream Theater Sacrilege

[KevShmev]

The Dark Eternal Night can be a good cheesy fun every once in a while; those kind of brainless metal songs often are.  It is artistically one of the shallowest songs they've ever written, but who says every song has to be some bold artistic statement?  Nothing wrong with just having some fun sometimes.

[chrisbDTM]

never said i disliked it, just it shouldnt be the first DT song you hear

[BlobVanDam]

TDEN is the worst song they've ever done, it's bad and hilarious. AND you not me is far better than it.

This. I don't know how anyone can take that song seriously.

The answer is "easily". 
Sure, the lyrics are a block of mozzarella, but once you looks past that, musically it's actually a well crafted song, and something unique for them, with an interesting instrumental section with great use of variations on themes and rhythms, rather than just looping a riff and trading solos. I find the instrumental section to be very reminiscent of the instrumental style of IaW, in terms and structure and arrangement.

[MoraWintersoul]

-I don't like Budokan DVD that much
-The Ministry of Lost Souls is my favorite song on SC
-I like Cleaning out the Closet way more than FII (Don't look past me is really great song IMO)
-Scarred is in my top 25

I agree on each of these opinions (well, maybe not entirely on COTC), but I don't consider them that controversial, except maybe for the Budokan one

I'm probably about as atypical a DT fan as you'll find in these parts.

Definitely, I only agreed on about 10% of what you wrote

[TheGreatPretender]

New millennium was never awesome

Wow, we... Actually agree on something...

[chrisbDTM]

im pretty sure liking scarred is less controversial, on this forum at least. top 5 for me 

[TheGreatPretender]

The answer is "easily". 
Sure, the lyrics are a block of mozzarella, but once you looks past that, musically it's actually a well crafted song, and something unique for them, with an interesting instrumental section with great use of variations on themes and rhythms, rather than just looping a riff and trading solos. I find the instrumental section to be very reminiscent of the instrumental style of IaW, in terms and structure and arrangement.

And don't forget that opening riff. One of the most memorable riffs in DT, IMO. Wasn't it voted to be like one of the best riffs in some or other magazine back then?

[Scorpion]

Well, musically speaking it isn't bad, that's true. But the lyrics kinda ruin it for me, which is strange 'cause bad lyrics aren't always a dealbreaker for me. However, in this case, I can't enjoy the song because of it.

[?]

I might do a top 50 DT song list at some point but looks like many others will get to do theirs first so I hope these opinions of mine have been forgotten by the time I do my list:

-I rank WDADU 4th, behind Awake, Images and ADTOE
-The Ones Who Help... is a great song and Status Seeker is pretty good as well
-The lyrics to Lie are very good and interesting
-You Not Me, while not very good, isn't the worst DT song IMO and I like Burning My Soul
-Speak to Me is better than over half of the songs that made it to FII
-While Scenes is a very consistent album the songs don't stand out very well on their own
-I don't like The Spirit Carries On that much
-I've never been able to consider Six Degrees one song; for me it's just a suite. It's also my least favorite "song" on the album
-The ending unison in This Dying Soul is totally pointless
-Honor Thy Father is one of the best songs on TOT
-Octavarium (song) is extremely overrated and I've never been able to like it as much as most people here do

[Stonestef]

I like " You Not Me" and " Raw Dog". "You Not Me" has very nice music and "Raw Dog" serves its purpose excellent.

[JayOctavarium]

I'll jump in line with those who enjoy Raw Dog

[chrisbDTM]

I'll jump in line with those who enjoy Raw Dog

reporting in as well

[TheGreatPretender]

"Raw Dog" serves its purpose excellent.

Not really. It's way too thrashy, too 'modern' sounding. I mean, it was made for God of War. You'd think DT would've done something more epic. Musically, maybe something along the lines of Outcry, you know, something with some choir or orchestral effects and a more 'grand' and, well, epic feel to it.

[Scorpion]

-The ending unison in This Dying Soul is totally pointless

That's not really controversial, though. The opposite would be controversial.

[JayOctavarium]

I'll jump in line with those who enjoy Raw Dog

reporting in as well

o/

"Raw Dog" serves its purpose excellent.

Not really. It's way too thrashy, too 'modern' sounding. I mean, it was made for God of War. You'd think DT would've done something more epic. Musically, maybe something along the lines of Outcry, you know, something with some choir or orchestral effects and a more 'grand' and, well, epic feel to it.

its made to appeal with GoW fans... I am not stereotyping but my buddy is a hardcore fan and he LOVED Raw Dog... lololol

plus... modern game... modern metal compilation...

[YtseJamittaja]

I quoted some of your comments:

- I enjoy The Ministry of Lost Souls as it is, and it is the best song from SC.
- ANTR is awesome as is.
- ACOS is wildly overrated, and not that amazing. It is good, but everything on IaW is better imo (including LTL). Aside from being an old song and being the first "mega epic", I don't know why it's so highly regarded. Octavarium is the far superior epic imo.
- Burning My Soul is a good song.
- The Shattered Fortress is fun and energetic. I dig it.
- I don't (really) like Scenes From A Memory.
- When it comes to WDADU, I generally prefer the original vocals over those of WDADRU (though I would love to see JLB tackle WDADU in a studio setting).
- Awake is on the lower half of DT's albums
- Lost Not Forgotten is the best song on ADTOE.

And I could add one of my own:
- I don't like Outcry. At all. It's just bores me every time.

[YtseJamittaja]

I have to say that Blob, I agree with almost 100% your comments.

[TheGreatPretender]

its made to appeal with GoW fans... I am not stereotyping but my buddy is a hardcore fan and he LOVED Raw Dog... lololol

plus... modern game... modern metal compilation...

Yeah, but at least some of the other songs on the EP it the theme better. I mean, look at This is Madness. And the other ones were at least more melodic.
I'm also a hardcore fan of GoW, and frankly, I thought Raw Dog failed to properly capture the atmosphere of the game. With all the other songs on the EP, you could kind of see where they'd fit in the game. Like, whether it's something epic, or The Throat of Winter, which is something more solemn and acoustic. But with Raw Dog, it feels like it belongs in Mortal Kombat, not God of War. Especially considering songs like ITNOG, Sacrificed Sons and even A Nightmare To Remember, which were all really heavy, but also very melodic. So it's not like Dream Theater doesn't know how to do that sort of thing.
Instead, we got what pretty much sounded like one day's worth of a jam session, where they had focused on doing something heavy and completely forgot what they were doing it for.
Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Raw Dog, I think it has its moments, and I have my moments when I feel like listening to it. But as far as it 'serving its purpose' I highly disagree.

[JayOctavarium]

its made to appeal with GoW fans... I am not stereotyping but my buddy is a hardcore fan and he LOVED Raw Dog... lololol

plus... modern game... modern metal compilation...

Yeah, but at least some of the other songs on the EP it the theme better. I mean, look at This is Madness. And the other ones were at least more melodic.
I'm also a hardcore fan of GoW, and frankly, I thought Raw Dog failed to properly capture the atmosphere of the game. With all the other songs on the EP, you could kind of see where they'd fit in the game. Like, whether it's something epic, or The Throat of Winter, which is something more solemn and acoustic. But with Raw Dog, it feels like it belongs in Mortal Kombat, not God of War. Especially considering songs like ITNOG, Sacrificed Sons and even A Nightmare To Remember, which were all really heavy, but also very melodic. So it's not like Dream Theater doesn't know how to do that sort of thing.
Instead, we got what pretty much sounded like one day's worth of a jam session, where they had focused on doing something heavy and completely forgot what they were doing it for.
Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Raw Dog, I think it has its moments, and I have my moments when I feel like listening to it. But as far as it 'serving its purpose' I highly disagree.

we are now mortal enemies.


jk


I agree that Raw Dog totally lacks melody

[chrisbDTM]

does it really matter if it fit the game? nope. its a random game that came out with a little companion CD, they went in to the studio and that's what came out

[TheGreatPretender]

does it really matter if it fit the game? nope. its a random game that came out with a little companion CD, they went in to the studio and that's what came out

Well, since most DT fans don't really like Raw Dog, I think it's a pretty good indicator that what came out, failed. Frankly, when I heard about the EP, I wanted the kind of music I could listen to WHILE playing God of War 3, and Dream Theater has plenty of songs that would serve that purpose a thousand times better than the one song they actually wrote FOR the game.

[manticore999]

Until ADTOE I really, really disliked all the albums after 6DOIT.  Don't even have them sync'd on my Ipod anymore as I don't want to waste the space.  Oh, and I really don't like ACOS at all.  I know I'm definitely in the minority, but that's nothing new!

[LCArenas]

Metropolis Part I. Yes, it's a great song, but I don't think it qualifies into my top 15 DT songs, let alone top 10.

[wasteland]

Metropolis Part I. Yes, it's a great song, but I don't think it qualifies into my top 15 DT songs, let alone top 10.

Sir, you just aced the thread.

[TheGreatPretender]

Metropolis Part I. Yes, it's a great song, but I don't think it qualifies into my top 15 DT songs, let alone top 10.

You know, I love Metropolis to death, but I really wonder how many DT fans actually feel that way, and how many say that Metropolis is one of the best simply because of its structure and musicianship. I mean, I know it's progressive music, but I think too many DT fans overanalyze it to the point where they evaluate the music with their brain rather than with their heart. And cheesy as it may sound, ultimately, you're supposed to feel music and judge it based on that, not on "how technically proficient a certain aspect is".

[Implode]

I'd say that a song is as good as the amount of fun you have listening to it.

[KevShmev]

Considering the premise of this thread was:

What things about Dream Theater do you really dislike that most people widely regard as awesome/sacred?

How did we get to now naming songs that we really like, but just not as much as everyone else?

[TheGreatPretender]

Good point, Kev.

I've said this before, in other threads, but since I haven't mentioned it in this thread, I will say this. I think that Images and Words really needs to be remixed and remastered, to make it sound more consistent with the recent DT albums. It would sound better that way.

[chrisbDTM]

taking something from 1992 to make it sound like 2012 just doesn't make sense. that's how it sounded when they made it big and that's what they put out at that time. you dont just erase that. i listen to the originals over greatest hit versions any time

[KevShmev]

I've said this before, in other threads, but since I haven't mentioned it in this thread, I will say this. I think that Images and Words really needs to be remixed and remastered, to make it sound more consistent with the recent DT albums. It would sound better that way.

I totally disagree.  An album, in many respects, is a snapshot of where that band was in time.  If it was remixed to sound more modern, it would lose that "snapshot in time" feeling.  Besides, the older DT albums "sound" better anyway.  All of the albums from 1999 to 2011 are too smothered in compression, although each album varies (SFAM has way too much, 6DOIT not as much, ToT has tons, etc.).  I'd hate to see I&W, Awake or FII (all of which sound great) suffer from being mixed like modern rock records.

[theseoafs]

Chris and Kev are correct.

[TheGreatPretender]

See, that's the problem. People seem to view Images and Words as some 'time capsule' of what was happening in 1992. Like the only reason to listen to it is pure nostalgia?
I like the album and the songs for the compositions that they are. Take Metropolis, the way they performed it on Score. It sounds amazing, it doesn't sound like it was 'mixed' in the early 90's, it just sounds like a kick ass song. That's what I want. The difference is, with Live recordings, there's always the applause at the beginning and the end of the track, and the overall quality still has that 'live' feel to it. I'd want something like the Score version, or even a more straight forward LFSNY version, but with a studio quality sound.

[theseoafs]

I'd want something like the Score version, or even a more straight forward LFSNY version, but with a studio quality sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7knIi3LGf4M

Anyway, obviously, nobody here is arguing that the only reason to listen to Metropolis is for nostalgia. However, we also recognize that the production is important.

[KevShmev]

See, that's the problem. People seem to view Images and Words as some 'time capsule' of what was happening in 1992. Like the only reason to listen to it is pure nostalgia?
I like the album and the songs for the compositions that they are. Take Metropolis, the way they performed it on Score. It sounds amazing, it doesn't sound like it was 'mixed' in the early 90's, it just sounds like a kick ass song. That's what I want. The difference is, with Live recordings, there's always the applause at the beginning and the end of the track, and the overall quality still has that 'live' feel to it. I'd want something like the Score version, or even a more straight forward LFSNY version, but with a studio quality sound.

Pure nostalgis has nothing to do with it.  It has everything to do with the song being written and recorded when the band were in a certain time and headspace, and the sound and recording of that and the times reflect that.  If you want a band whose recordings all sound the same, might I suggest listening to AC/DC.

[TheGreatPretender]

Pure nostalgis has nothing to do with it.  It has everything to do with the song being written and recorded when the band were in a certain time and headspace, and the sound and recording of that and the times reflect that.  If you want a band whose recordings all sound the same, might I suggest listening to AC/DC.

I think the actual composition and the actual sounds used in the recording itself do more than enough to indicate a band's time and headspace. Metropolis is Metropolis. I'm not saying they should re-record the song with modern instruments. I mean, look at the way the songs had been re-mixed for the Greatest Hit album. Now, I've heard some people say that the guitars are too loud and that on higher end sound systems it doesn't sound good. But let's say those guitars were taken down just a notch, but still retain that oomph that the remixed versions have. They're still the same songs. PMU, AD and TTT, they're still fundamentally the same songs, same instruments (except the redone drums) and still very indicative of where the band was at the time when they wrote them. The only difference is, now they have more power to them, more bass, and frankly, I think they sound superior to the originals. And in spite of that, they don't "all sound the same".