Some plebeians think that DT is on the decline (as far as live shows go)

[El Barto]

I don't think MP subdued the band....

Come on, dude. There's certainly things one can have differing opinions about, but MP subduing elements of the band is not really in question. Besides, how do you explain the refound excitement and vigor DT has exhibited live since MP left?

rumborak

That's subjective though. Personally they look about the same to me (and I don't mean that as a good or bad thing, I just don't see any huge magical difference with MM in the band like some people do). Every tour people make the same comments about how much more lively they are on stage. It's not like MP was telling them to stand still on stage, he just happened to be the most lively.

Yup.  The only difference I see is that JP and JLB try to engage the crowd a bit more, but that's due to the lack of a real front man.  I saw three shows last time around, and I didn't really see the renewed enthusiasm that people are raving about.  I'm not denying that they seem to be in a happier place, I'm certain that they are,  I just don't see a huge difference in their stage show.  People act like JMX is Angus Young reborn, and he isn't.

Also worth pointing out, during the IM tour, when everybody says they were miserable, I thought they looked more enthusiastic than ever.  I saw the first two nights of the tour, and they were more exciting than any of the headlining shows I've seen.  They might not have had any offstage camaraderie, but it wasn't at all evident from the crowd.

[ronrule]

Another thing that might make me stop returning regularly is the DT ticket prices. I just paid $110 for a total run-of-the-mill seat in Boston. And tickets go as high as $280. WTF.

rumborak

Yep, too expensive for any seat other than the back, at which point I would just as well watch the DVD. I've seen the guys 5 times or so and half of them have been disappointments based on vocal performance or sound quality. And nothing is going to compare to having seen them at Mississippi Nights in St. Louis (small rock club) performing SFAM entirely for what, twenty-five bucks? And ADTOE hasn't aged well for me, aside from a few songs. All those things add up to probably not going tomorrow night. :-/

[KevShmev]

  And nothing is going to compare to having seen them at Mississippi Nights in St. Louis (small rock club) performing SFAM entirely for what, twenty-five bucks?

Hey, I was at that show!

And looking at my ticket stub, it was $20!

My, how times have changed.

[Implode]

And now I'd have to spend well over $100 to get good seats. 

[TheSilentHam]

So many factors go into how a live show feels (which is completely subjective anyhow), and even varies for those attending the same show for a variety of reasons.  I couldn't bring myself to make blanket statements about the direction of live performances based on one tour with a new drummer, seeing one show live and a sampling of (mostly low quality) youtube clips.

Just  a few subjective observations from my personal experiences:

• I found both MP and MM to be a joy to watch live.  Though they are very different, both of them seem to be playing with a very honest, transparent joy and energy.
• The show I attended this tour was more unified in excitement over DT in comparison to the ProgNat shows, where I noticed a significant percentage obviously there to watch some of the other bands.  Still doesn't come close to An Evening With ...
• I didn't get a very different vibe from JP and JLB when comparing past shows to this tour, but JMX seemed much more into it, and JR seemed to really dig the audience digging the new stuff - I like the way he makes eye contact and smiles.
• There has been a shortage of JMX tackling at all the shows I have ever attended

[cosmicwxdude]

Do people agree with them? Every video I see shows an energetic band (compared to before MM) and an energetic crowd. I think it's still full steam ahead in DT world.

I agree.  Nothing to me indicates a decline whatsoever.

[cosmicwxdude]

Well isn't this lovely? We've all decided that anyone who thinks DT's live shows were at all better with MP must be either raging MP fanboys, "plebeians", or butthurt because of setlists. And apparently you also have to be a raging MP fanboy to not like ADTOE.

*backs out of DT side*

Might be taking the title of the thread too seriously. FWIW, many of Rome's emperors (30%) were Plebs.

They also happened not to like ADTOE which proves Blobs point 

ADTOE is probably my fav DT lp.

[cosmicwxdude]

Well isn't this lovely? We've all decided that anyone who thinks DT's live shows were at all better with MP must be either raging MP fanboys, "plebeians", or butthurt because of setlists. And apparently you also have to be a raging MP fanboy to not like ADTOE.

*backs out of DT side*

Hear, hear. 

I'm neither a MP fanboy nor a pleb, and I think their live shows have taken a significant hit.  I'd be happy to explain why, but I've already done that, plus in a scant 21 posts this thread has already convinced me that I'd never get past people's preconceived notions of DT's divinity. 

Quite frankly, the rampant fanboyism seems to be coming from the "Dream theater can do no wrong!" side.  Man, they're just five musicians, for fuck's sake.

And they're better than ever...I-M-H-O!!

[cosmicwxdude]

I've seen DT like 7 times live. However I have virtually no desire to see them live with MM. I love MM and honestly don't care much for MP. However based off youtube clips (and lots of them) it seems their live shows have become essentially playing the songs identical to the CD with some groovy lights/vids. Honestly, I don't really care to see live bands that strive to sound identical to their CDs.

I disagree.  Have a nice day.

[cosmicwxdude]

I've seen DT like 7 times live. However I have virtually no desire to see them live with MM. I love MM and honestly don't care much for MP. However based off youtube clips (and lots of them) it seems their live shows have become essentially playing the songs identical to the CD with some groovy lights/vids. Honestly, I don't really care to see live bands that strive to sound identical to their CDs.

Well, to be honest, that has always been their thing though. I remember in the beginning being super-excited about seeing the songs being executed to perfection, but it has (sadly) little replay value. DT shows have very little unique character (as I think the excitement about JMX kicking a beach ball shows).
I still haven't bought my DT ticket for the 16th because I'm kinda "eh". I will probably cave in and go nonetheless.

rumborak

To each his own...I think they are better than ever.  I'm glad MP is gone...he had toooooooo much control. They can now breath a bit.

[rumborak]

And now I'd have to spend well over $100 to get good seats. 

I just looked at average ticket prices, and DT's tickets start above the average ticket price for the country 

rumborak

[El Barto]

Wow, you Yankees are getting fleeced.  I suspect it's just the COL factor of living in NY or NJ.  Down here they were $39 and $49.  I'd probably be sitting out the NJ show for $120 (or buying a dirt cheap scalper seat).  Not worth that much to me.

BTW, when checking prices I noticed that there are currently 5th row centers available for the Huntington NY show, if anybody feels like getting ass-raped by bear like guitar player. 

[cosmicwxdude]

Some of the critiques have been about attendance. Is that true? People are slating DT to fail.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if attendance was down this time through.  For one thing it hasn't been that long since the first leg.  They're lucky to sell 2k when they play Dallas every 3 years.  A second show in less than a year, and with a very similar setlist, isn't going to be a huge draw.  Then you've got the fans like me who just don't find them all that interesting anymore.  That's a few less seats for two more shows from a core segment of their fanbase.

The fan base is not static. Ever consider they might be gaining new fans?  I know I've spawned a few.

[chrisbDTM]

BTW, when checking prices I noticed that there are currently 5th row centers available for the Huntington NY show, if anybody feels like getting ass-raped by bear like guitar player.

i just bought tickets two days ago and got 4th row center in NY. im not sure how that was possible since tickets went on sale a while ago

also, my body is ready

[snapple]

Blob, that shoop is killing me 

[cosmicwxdude]

I had the opportunity to see Rush over two nights at Red Rocks.  Saw the first night and skipped town, since the second wouldn't have been any different.

I don't know if that's really fair. Obviously the songs would have been the same, but how could you know the shows' "feels" wouldn't be any different?

Just a hunch, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.  Rush, like plenty of other bands and including DT, have plenty of elements in their shows sequenced to a click.  Lighting cues, backing vocals (SUBDVISION!  ), videos, pyro.  When every rendition of a song has to be 5:33 each night, you're not going to get much variance in feel.

As to why it's a problem, I don't think it automatically is.  What I've said all along is that their live show has taken a hit in the excitement department.  I've never said it was anything less in the sheer precision department.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I do not share it and from I am seeing from their live shows recently w/o MP...most people don't share your opinion.   

[cosmicwxdude]

Another thing that might make me stop returning regularly is the DT ticket prices. I just paid $110 for a total run-of-the-mill seat in Boston. And tickets go as high as $280. WTF.

rumborak

I paid $69 for 3rd row in Minneapolis.  Went to box office they day tix went on sale.  It varies.  You live in Boston and you were probably taxed about 50%. That's what liberals do..

[BlobVanDam]

I had the opportunity to see Rush over two nights at Red Rocks.  Saw the first night and skipped town, since the second wouldn't have been any different.

I don't know if that's really fair. Obviously the songs would have been the same, but how could you know the shows' "feels" wouldn't be any different?

Just a hunch, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.  Rush, like plenty of other bands and including DT, have plenty of elements in their shows sequenced to a click.  Lighting cues, backing vocals (SUBDVISION!  ), videos, pyro.  When every rendition of a song has to be 5:33 each night, you're not going to get much variance in feel.

As to why it's a problem, I don't think it automatically is.  What I've said all along is that their live show has taken a hit in the excitement department.  I've never said it was anything less in the sheer precision department.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I do not share it and from I am seeing from their live shows recently w/o MP...most people don't share your opinion.   

We already got that from the five posts in a row you made earlier (which btw you can multi-quote in one post, and that much double posting is frowned upon on any forum). No need to personally disagree with every single one for no reason other than to disagree, unless you actually had something further to add.

Don't mean to sound like a dick, it's just getting kind of annoying.

[Adami]

I had the opportunity to see Rush over two nights at Red Rocks.  Saw the first night and skipped town, since the second wouldn't have been any different.

I don't know if that's really fair. Obviously the songs would have been the same, but how could you know the shows' "feels" wouldn't be any different?

Just a hunch, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.  Rush, like plenty of other bands and including DT, have plenty of elements in their shows sequenced to a click.  Lighting cues, backing vocals (SUBDVISION!  ), videos, pyro.  When every rendition of a song has to be 5:33 each night, you're not going to get much variance in feel.

As to why it's a problem, I don't think it automatically is.  What I've said all along is that their live show has taken a hit in the excitement department.  I've never said it was anything less in the sheer precision department.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I do not share it and from I am seeing from their live shows recently w/o MP...most people don't share your opinion.   

We already got that from the five posts in a row you made earlier (which btw you can multi-quote in one post, and that much double posting is frowned upon on any forum). No need to personally disagree with every single one for no reason other than to disagree, unless you actually had something further to add.

Don't mean to sound like a dick, it's just getting kind of annoying.

I disagree Blob. You're entitled to your opinion that it's getting kind of annoying but based on the reactions so far, most people seem to disagree with you.

[snapple]

[cosmicwxdude]

I had the opportunity to see Rush over two nights at Red Rocks.  Saw the first night and skipped town, since the second wouldn't have been any different.

I don't know if that's really fair. Obviously the songs would have been the same, but how could you know the shows' "feels" wouldn't be any different?

Just a hunch, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.  Rush, like plenty of other bands and including DT, have plenty of elements in their shows sequenced to a click.  Lighting cues, backing vocals (SUBDVISION!  ), videos, pyro.  When every rendition of a song has to be 5:33 each night, you're not going to get much variance in feel.

As to why it's a problem, I don't think it automatically is.  What I've said all along is that their live show has taken a hit in the excitement department.  I've never said it was anything less in the sheer precision department.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I do not share it and from I am seeing from their live shows recently w/o MP...most people don't share your opinion.   

We already got that from the five posts in a row you made earlier (which btw you can multi-quote in one post, and that much double posting is frowned upon on any forum). No need to personally disagree with every single one for no reason other than to disagree, unless you actually had something further to add.

Don't mean to sound like a dick, it's just getting kind of annoying.

Alrighty then!

[MoraWintersoul]

Not to take away from your ongoing argument, but all I see here is a bunch of people privileged enough to see DT multiple times in one tour for several tours in a row.

Don't want to be a gloom cookie for living in the middle of nowhere, nor say people should be happy with whatever they get, just making an observation that, while the OP thinks MP fanboys/"plebeians" are obviously biased, bringing this up for discussion on a forum where most people aren't your regular DT fans either, but something completely different, won't be fruitful.

[El Barto]

Another thing that might make me stop returning regularly is the DT ticket prices. I just paid $110 for a total run-of-the-mill seat in Boston. And tickets go as high as $280. WTF.

rumborak

I paid $69 for 3rd row in Minneapolis.  Went to box office they day tix went on sale.  It varies.  You live in Boston and you were probably taxed about 50%. That's what liberals do..

Rather than point out all the ways that your remark is stunningly full of shit, I'll merely point you to the board where that subject gets debated several times a year. 

Suffice it to say, ticket prices in NY/NJ are high because everything costs more up there.  NY is a pretty cool place, but the price you pay to live up there is getting sodomized for every single purchase you make. 

[Tomislav95]

OMG, you are  still talking about MP. I'm dying to see DT live. Who knows, maybe they'll come to my country someday, and what I hear from bootlegs they are as great as always.

[MoraWintersoul]

I'm dying to see DT live. Who knows, maybe they'll come to my country someday, and what I hear from bootlegs they are as great as always.

Yeah, you can tell we live in the same corner of the world 

[Bruins]

I love this most people stuff...I cant speak for anyone other than my own experience. I have seen D.T 20+ times since I&W. Me and my buddy knew it was automatic go if they were within couple hundred miles, to see them once, twice maybe three times a tour. It was a given, that we are going and price was no object. I did the platinum tix meet and great in the past ect. What can I say I got money to burn    I saw them last tour with MM in Albany and the place was half full on a Sat night. I didn't see the new intense live show vigor that everyone seems to talk about. Sorry didn't see it and don't think the crowd felt it either cause the crowd was weak for Sat. night. My buddy and I agreed worst DT show we ever been to. Wow they played the music well...great.... so does the Steve Miller band and Tool....but a show is more than that.

The  static set lists is a big deal to many fans. The cop out of lights/ect for the reason is weak. They are not remaking the Wall. I for one would rather a varies set list than movies/lights. One of the best shows I saw DT play was a one off during the Maiden tour in Worcester with limited lights/screen. They were on fire and the setlist was surprise. 

Sadly me and my buddy decided after Albany last year DT is no longer and automatic buy. With Boston around the corner, I have not even looked at ticket prices and probably wont go. This saddens me as I have seen DT in clubs and rightly or wrongly there are fans that will sit out this tour or even the next. I will say this we will be first in line if MP ever does come back in the band. Call me a fanboy if you wish...but  DT has now become Van Halen and Van Hagar. Fans will like one version more than another and may even like both. To call longtime fans or anyones opinions wrong is out of line.

[Tomislav95]

I'm dying to see DT live. Who knows, maybe they'll come to my country someday, and what I hear from bootlegs they are as great as always.

Yeah, you can tell we live in the same corner of the world 

Lol, when you wrote corner, Australia come to my mind (NHF)
Yes, they was in Croatia once 2007 but I wasn't listening DT

[chrisbDTM]

the crowd has a big part of it. if they are energetic the band will be too. shame albany didn't show up to give you a better show. last october's show in boston was LOUD

[ytserush]

Another thing that might make me stop returning regularly is the DT ticket prices. I just paid $110 for a total run-of-the-mill seat in Boston. And tickets go as high as $280. WTF.

rumborak

I paid $69 for 3rd row in Minneapolis.  Went to box office they day tix went on sale.  It varies.  You live in Boston and you were probably taxed about 50%. That's what liberals do..

Rather than point out all the ways that your remark is stunningly full of shit, I'll merely point you to the board where that subject gets debated several times a year. 

Suffice it to say, ticket prices in NY/NJ are high because everything costs more up there.  NY is a pretty cool place, but the price you pay to live up there is getting sodomized for every single purchase you make.

Welcome to my world. Looks like I'm missing my first Dream Theater gig on a US leg since 1989 (didn't see them in 1990 and 1991.)  Ticket prices have crossed the line that I'm not willing to pay for the first time. Would have tried to snag some cheap lawn seats for the gig, but the bean counters have decided not to make them available for this particular show.




For me it's got nothing to with Portnoy or no Portnoy. For me it's not better or worse live. Just different.

When Portnoy left, the first thing I thought of was that the rotatong sets were going to take a hit. That's just the way it is. I wouldn't expect the rest of the band to be something they aren't.

Your mileage may vary.

[The Dark Master]

About the lack of rotating sets; just remember that they do have a new member in the band, and he cannot be expected to learn 25 years worth of albums within the short amount of time allowed to prepare for the tour, let alone then play any song on a whim.  IIRCC, the tours for Awake and SFAM did not have a lot of variety in the sets for the same reason (it was a bit less noticeable for Jordan, though, since half of the set was going to be identical every night anyways due to SFAM being played in it's entirety every night).   At any rate we still got a decent variety in sets between the two legs of the tour.  Comparing my setlist from the Chicago show last year, and the one from this year, the only shared songs were OTBOA, BITS, and BAI.

The band's performances on stage are otherwise every bit as solid as they have ever been.  I don't really miss the loss of medleys since I hate them anyways, and the band definitely seems a bit happier and more comfortable with each other on stage then they have in a while.  The lack of Portnoy is something of a mixed bag.  On the one hand, he did add a lot to the band's perceived live spontaneity, but on the other hand, his need to constantly be in the spotlight while performing could be rather grating.

[Madman Shepherd]

About the lack of rotating sets; just remember that they do have a new member in the band, and he cannot be expected to learn 25 years worth of albums within the short amount of time allowed to prepare for the tour, let alone then play any song on a whim.  IIRCC, the tours for Awake and SFAM did not have a lot of variety in the sets for the same reason (it was a bit less noticeable for Jordan, though, since half of the set was going to be identical every night anyways due to SFAM being played in it's entirety every night).

Jordan also gets the luxury of looking at the music notes every night when he plays.

[MoraWintersoul]

Jordan also gets the luxury of looking at the music notes every night when he plays.

I never got that - more than half of the time he's not really looking at them, so, why does he have them?

[BlobVanDam]

Jordan also gets the luxury of looking at the music notes every night when he plays.

I never got that - more than half of the time he's not really looking at them, so, why does he have them?

He would have played the parts enough times to know it mostly by heart, so it's probably more of a backup for little sections and passages he may not recall exactly. I doubt he's too reliant on them for the most part though.

[robwebster]

I'd have guessed it'd be more for the annotations, possibly? He knows how to play Blind Faith, and he'd know even without the sheet music because the man's a keyboard prodigy. He knows how the song sounds, he knows exactly what sound each key will make before he touches it, and that's before we factor in the tonnes of rehearsal.

What's easier to forget, though, is when a certain sample is mapped to the lowest E. Or a particular octave is set up to appear twice. Or when you have to kick the foot pedal to skip to the next patch which sounds similar to the last one except with less bass and a touch more reverb laid on. Not sure of this at all, but I think the musical notes, while a perfectly handy crib sheet, are more incidental. They make more sense as contour lines than instructions; demonstrate the anatomy of the song, give him some context to hang the landmarks on.

[Furby]

Well I have seen 6 DT gigs now since 2007, and while I have enjoyed them all, I did personally feel like the new lineup just had a bit more energy, and just seemed to be more relaxed and noticeably enjoying it a bit more throughout. I don't think it was a monumental shift at all, and I can remember many hilarious times with Portnoy as well, but it was just a more consistent in the current line up.

I'm a big LaBrie fan as well, so for me, it was nice to see him take on the front man role more prominently, and his stage presence was much improved. And mangini was thoroughly enjoyable to watch, not as crazy and as interactive as Portnoy, but he was constantly smiling (or pulling a variety of other hilarious faces), and interacting with the band, or pointing down into the crowd.

In summary, I love both lineups, and while I think there is little to choose between, I feel the band as a whole has more presence and enjoyment now than before, but only by a tiny bit - and needless to say, this only reflects my experience, at those gigs with those crowds, they will have good and bad nights irrespective of who is in the band.