lines in the sand - What's it in?

[dominion654]

I feel like Lines in the sand, at least the solo part(the one that sound heavily influenced by Do You Feel Like We Do), is in F lydian, but please someone correct me if I am wrong. I know JP uses modes like a champ, so my next step in my education is discovering how and where DT uses them. The solo has such a specific and unusual sound I know it has to be a mode, but am not sure which one!

Thanks guys!

P.S. first post!

[theseoafs]

Musically speaking, the vast majority of the song is very easily in D minor. The solo itself seems to be built around a D Dorian mode (which is enharmonically the same thing as F lydian, so you're good there), with notes from the D blues scale thrown in there at times for good measure, though there might be something else I'm missing here too.

A lesson: Songs are not "in modes". They're in keys. Solos may be built around modes in comparison to the actual key of the song, but it is incorrect to say that a song is "in F lydian" (if that's the case, it's just in C, and this song is not in C).

EDIT: My wording here is inaccurate. Songs can certainly be in modes; what I meant to express was that you're not going to find a whole lot of metal songs for which that is the case, and to make sure you understand that the scale a solo is based on may not correspond to the actual key of the song. See discussion below.

[wolfking]

Good explanation.  I haven't really delved into many of JP's solos, but I believe a big majority of them are just based around the key the song is in.  It seems he likes to experiment in more of the pentatonic, blues, harmonic minor, diminished, phyrgian dominant, chromatic, whole tone type scales rather than modes.  IMO, modes are a little limiting if you think of them that way.

If you want examples of good uses of Lydian mode, check Vai and Satriani.

[theseoafs]

^This too. Scales and modes will do you well, but thinking in scales is rather limiting. The question "What scale is JP using here?" assigns a simplicity to the art of music that isn't there -- JP, like the truly great musicians, plays what he knows will sound good rather than concerning himself strictly with what a scale he selected dictates he should do.

[wolfking]

That's it, a lot of the times, some of the best music and solos don't follow the strict rules of using 1 scale, anything goes, it's how you use the craft to make it sound good.

[dominion654]

First off, thank you for your advice.

Secondly, I was watching a Guthrie Govan interview and he said the best way to think about soloing is to just try and end on a chord tone, and you can basically play anything in between the key notes. I have been focusing a lot on doing things along the lines of Starting at an A note, playing weird runs that sometimes highlight the pentatonic or the whole scale but in the end literally have random notes thrown in, and then ending on another A either an octave up or down, or something like that. Eventually you start to hear what notes sound good thrown in with the scale, like the blues note and the harmonic minor sharped 7th to start. Still JP is pretty fucking good at throwing in a chromatic not here and there to give such a unique sound to his solos. I crave that ability. I want to be unique.

TL;DR I play random notes and just try to hit the chord tones to finish off runs.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice guys! Maybe my little rant can help you guys think out of the box as well!

[wolfking]

You are right, JP has a great skill in using chromatics, it's hard to do, and do it well.  Steve Morse and George Bellas are two more great examples of chromatic users.

Guthrie has a very erratic style, and he is able to use so many notes not in the keys because he plays so fast, many of his notes are just classified as passing notes. His phrasing is so good though, that everything he does works perfectly.

It's a tough skill to pick so many notes not in the scale and use them while complimenting the music underneath, you are really chartering into fusion territory, where people like Allan Holdsworth and Frank Gambale are just mindblowing.  From there players like that think more of the chords they are playing under and not the notes, so tough to do.

[Elite]

A lesson: Songs are not "in modes". They're in keys.

17th and 18th century music would like to have a word with you.

[theseoafs]

A lesson: Songs are not "in modes". They're in keys.

17th and 18th century music would like to have a word with you.

We're not discussing classical music here. Besides, if I were talking about 17th and 18th century music, I'd have said "pieces", not "songs".

[champbassist]

A lesson: Songs are not "in modes". They're in keys.

17th and 18th century music would like to have a word with you.

+1 And so would "So What". Even "Man On The Moon"

I saw a lesson vid where Frank Gambale states how the concepts of modal keys is a very valid one, saying that "songs don't always have to be in major keys".

[theseoafs]

Man on the Moon, the REM song? G Major all the way through, my friend. You're right about So What, of course.

I'll reword my post: I was trying to make sure that the OP was using his vocab correctly. I didn't want him to go around saying that Lines in the Sand is "in D Dorian" or "in F Lydian" or "in G Mixolydian" because these things aren't accurate; DT songs generally aren't modal, and rest comfortably in the major or minor keys. Lines in the Sand is in D Minor, and its solo takes cues from the D Dorian mode and the D Blues scale.

[Elite]

Alright, points taken. :

[Kotowboy]

This discussion reminds me of kids on the first year at my music uni.

" Hey man _ my band has a song in C - so i wrote this solo in D dorian because thats the 2nd mode of C major !! "

Um - that's cool but did you write in it D Dorian because it goes with the song or just because it's in C major and you learned modes this week ?

[champbassist]

I'll reword my post: I was trying to make sure that the OP was using his vocab correctly. I didn't want him to go around saying that Lines in the Sand is "in D Dorian" or "in F Lydian" or "in G Mixolydian" because these things aren't accurate; DT songs generally aren't modal, and rest comfortably in the major or minor keys. Lines in the Sand is in D Minor, and its solo takes cues from the D Dorian mode and the D Blues scale.

Indeed. The fact that I wanted to point out, though, is that the statement:

Songs are not "in modes"

is not correct at all.

Referring to So What, for example, as being in anything other than D Dorian/Eb Dorian/D Dorian is not correct.

BTW, Man On The Moon is a very commonly cited example of Lydian. The intro and verse, especially, are very firmly C Lydian (Cmaj-Dadd11, a strong resolution to the Cmaj chord). The chorus is G major, I agree.

[theseoafs]

Yeah, I realize my wording was overly general to the point of inaccuracy. I edited my original post. Sorry about that.

[Elite]

This discussion reminds me of kids on the first year at my music uni.

" Hey man _ my band has a song in C - so i wrote this solo in D dorian because thats the 2nd mode of C major !! "

Um - that's cool but did you write in it D Dorian because it goes with the song or just because it's in C major and you learned modes this week ?

Yeah, I totally recognise this. Very annoying.

[dominion654]

Haha thanks for all the help guys. Good to see some of theory-heads out there. Only on a DT forum haha

[Kotowboy]

This discussion reminds me of kids on the first year at my music uni.

" Hey man _ my band has a song in C - so i wrote this solo in D dorian because thats the 2nd mode of C major !! "

Um - that's cool but did you write in it D Dorian because it goes with the song or just because it's in C major and you learned modes this week ?

Yeah, I totally recognise this. Very annoying.

I tend to just not listen when they're blathering on. Also, like when you're just pissing about on guitar playing random notes for a joke and they go What Mode Is That ?

Not everything is a mode !!!  I don't think of modes when i solo - I hear a melody in my head over the chords and I play it... I'm not thinking Aeolian or Phyrgian Dominant, I'm thinking melody. The best advice I ever got on my Music Degree was from my favourite tutor who said Dont think of modes when you play - Learn how the intervals sound against each other and then you can play exactly what you hear in your head. Amazing advice and it works amazingly well.

[StatusSeeker]

I tend to think of "modes" in two ways...
The first is a way to master your fretboard and play in any position in a given key...in other words, if I in in G major I know that if I play a major scale in the 3rd position (starting on G) or a Dorian scale in the fith position (A) etc... it is a way to move around in different positions and stay in the same key..
The other way I think of modes is actually playing in a "mode" for example, if you solo in C major over an F major backing chord, you are playing in the Lydian mode.  Modes only exist if there is a backing harmony or chord that makes it that way...other wise your playing the same seven notes, just in different positions...if any of that makes any sense..
But the OP was right on in talking about "chord" tones...not matter what key/mode you are in, ending (or not ending) your phrases on "chord" tones will make your solo sound good...or interesting...