Red - Feed The Machine vs. DT - BMU, BMD

[JasonScandopolous]

It's, what, a 40 second similarity at worst out of a 7 minute song? That hardly consists of "plagiarism" in the world of media.


It's not like vast, vast majority of our media is really "original" anyway.

The outro is remarkably similar as well, as is the instrumental break 75% of the way through... it's not just the intro.  That being said, I am arguing that they are similar and that BMU was influenced by this song.  Plagiarism is another thing... I dont think it's at that level.  I don't view this as harshly as JP's unattributed stealing of lyrics from novels and textbooks that has occurred in the past.

[Lowdz]

The passive-aggressive stuff really pisses me off. Have the courage of your convictions and say what you think instead of the spineless phrasing as a question all the time.

[Millais]

imo, they don't sound that similar at all. sure it's kinda similar in the intro, but the riffs are COMPLETELY different. can't believe I just stumbled across this. i've got a lot of reading to do!

[Kotowboy]

Nice detective work, BVD.   What you said is probably right on the money.  It appears as if Portnoy really didn't learn a damn thing from the 12-step program and that writing the songs was merely grandstanding. 

"Kindness - it's not that hard."

"I once thought it better to be right
But now I have finally seen the light
Sometimes you've got to be wrong
And learn from mistakes
I live with serenity now
Not self-righteous hate."

Yeah right.

[Elite]

I can see the similarities in a sense that BMU could have been influenced by this, but this is definitely no plagiarism..

[Millais]

I've finally read through all of this and checked other sites. my opinions:

* Opening of both songs are similar. Otherwise they are completely different. There's a definite difference between an infleunce and plagarism. Seems like MP, rather hypocrically, hasn't learnt from what he's said in previous years.
* Who cares anyway?! JP showing Red's album at the top of his end of year list just shows the influence and that's pretty cool imo.
* MP. gees. Any little respect I had for him was unfortunately lost after the whole JLB/Facebook liking situation. If he kept his mouth shut for once none of this would have happened - here was absolutely no need to bring it up on his forum, none at all. The worst thing about it all was how he announced it in a completely sarcastic way as well. That annoyed me. You can tell he's not in a "happy place" - if he was he wouldn't have seen the need to post something like this. Just to merely observe it.

Where will all of this go? Probably nowhere. From past situations DT haven't said anything at all and that's served them well. I hope it's like that this time as well.


Just my thoughts.

[Millais]

oh and lastly:

MP:If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it's their choice and doing...not mine!

...really? really? A bad response is clearly going to come from this so actually, it is indeed your doing 

[gentaishinigami]

Really, how much harm could this possible do to the band?  It's not like DT fans are going to hear about this then suddenly go "what the FUCK, Dream Theater? I may or may not have been ok with the countless other times you've done this sort of thing, but this time I'm through!" They're not going to lose their Grammy nomination over this. This isn't going to sully their name with the general public, since the general public still pretty much has no idea who they are outside of the fact that they recently got a Grammy nomination.

It's not going to do anything other than cause a stink that people will forget about after a few weeks and will only be brought up as another reason for people do dislike MP. It's a non problem; just MP fueling the flames again.

Anytime someone does damage to someones artistic credibility it's a serious thing.  Sure they may not be fan-less over the ordeal(s), but at the rate MP keeps chipping away at DT they are going to be so badly wounded in the minds of fans/potential fans that they may avoid them altogether  I don't think it's a dire situation or anything, but you can't deny the effect of public image on selling your goods.  If it wasn't important the world would be an entirely different place.     DT is getting a lot of negative exposure lately, and for a band that didn't exactly have a massive following that is going to hurt them eventually.  Now the accusations of plagiarism and copying their own songs are constantly going to be brought up as another reason to hate on them and it undermines all of their music as people are more likely to look for things now that they've "stolen" or "copied".  MP's smear campaign, whether intentional or not, is working (look on the RED video atm at the people saying essentially "omg portnoy said DT ripped off this song").  Before, when people said stuff about DT copying songs or whatnot it was by posters and wasn't usually put up in a hugely negative and confrontational way or published as "news" articles (to my knowledge).  They were stuffed in forums on the net and most people would have never heard about it.  MP has starpower and a pretty large following listening to his every word while he stands on his soapbox of social media and forums though.

Also, it would sully their name with the public because the public doesn't know who they are.  All they will hear (theoretically) is the condensed little sound-byte that DT accused of plagiarism, and that's all they will remember.  If they ever see something DT in the future they will probably look at it not as favorable (they had no sway at all before, and now they have negative thanks to the accusation, they certainly wouldn't like them more because of plagiarism!)

Anyway, it's not a huge deal either way, but it isn't something that should be downplayed.  It has a real effect on their fan-base and careers as well as the public perception of their music.     I just wish people would stop exaggerating how similar the songs are for their own desires or bias - including MP.

[snapple]

Plagiarism is a huge freaking deal. Plagiarize in university and you generally get kicked out and you get a stamp on your records saying you did.

[GunsOfThePatriots]

Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves

I hope that this is the only song

[gentaishinigami]

Plagiarism is a huge freaking deal. Plagiarize in university and you generally get kicked out and you get a stamp on your records saying you did.

Hmmm, I should clarify my statement, I meant it in the sense that they didn't plagiarize "Feed the Machine" and no one would agree that they did that wasn't heavily biased, so I don't see it as a big deal in that regard (as in I don't see any type of action being taken against them.. I guess it would be copyright infringement if red actually tried?  ).  What DT did isn't a big deal at all, what MP did on the other hand is, and I'm pretty sure it's illegal isn't it?  Or did he phrase the slander as a question again?  I can't remember atm how exactly it was worded.

Edit:  @GoTP  wow... I'm speechless...   

[Slain]

I can hear some similarities, but come on. It's not plagiarism. Why doesn't MP just shut the fuck up at this point? He comes to DTF, and tries to clear things up with the fanbase, but now he's backtracking again. I'm sure we'll see more posts from him defending himself, and trying to bring people back to his side again, but I'm done. I might listen to some of the future projects he releases but I can't support him or defend him anymore.

Stay classy DT, and ignore all of the nonsense.

[olliemedsy]

Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves

I hope that this is the only song

i almost agree. im not trying to sound like a cunt, but i actually think the intros sound less alike the the rest of the songs. no, im not trolling.

[Kotowboy]

oh and lastly:

MP:If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it's their choice and doing...not mine!

...really? really? A bad response is clearly going to come from this so actually, it is indeed your doing 

He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.

Putting your hands over your eyes does not make you invisible.

[snapple]

oh and lastly:

MP:If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it's their choice and doing...not mine!

...really? really? A bad response is clearly going to come from this so actually, it is indeed your doing 

He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.

Putting your hands over your eyes does not make you invisible.

This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.

[02T]

I don't know.  I could see Adrenaline Mob being huge.  Russell Allen is the best singer in the world who isn't Bruce Dickinson.  And Mike Orlando is a total rock star, apart from being an awesome, ballsy player.  The whole band totally delivers the goods live.

I dunno, they have so many awesome people but somehow the whole is less than the sum of its parts right now. I LOVE Russell Allen and MP but as with everyone else, the songs just haven't really grabbed me so far.

Bit of a thread hijack.  Sorry.  But I dig the songs, and the hooks, as someone mentioned earlier.  And some of the ones from the album that weren't on the EP they played live are even better.  They're one of the best, most engaging and entertaining live bands I've seen.

To bring it back to the topic: Mike's not being cool.  Lame.

[ResultsMayVary]

Edit:  @GoTP  wow... I'm speechless... 

I attempted to facedesk through my laptop. Holy shit.

[BlobVanDam]

Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves

I hope that this is the only song

No, those who say contrary actually understand music, and realize that there is zero musical similarity. It may have a similar vibe and structural similarities, but musically they're almost nothing alike.

Sorry, but I'm not letting MP's underhanded accusations become anything more than the bitter empty words that they are, and he's already given this more attention that it deserves.

I hate the whole lyrical quote thing, but hey it seems entirely appropriate here.

"Hypocrite
How could you be so cruel
and expect my faith in return?"

[ReaPsTA]

I think JP heard the new Red album and wanted to make a song like that.  Is this my favorite thing?  Not really.  I liked when DT's homages to other artists were more subtle, like To Live Forever (obviously U2 inspired, but it's own thing) and Home (the basslines are obviously inspired by Tool, but only a part of a larger musical tapestry).  But let's compare that to, say Never Enough.  RobWebster said once upon a time he heard a Muse song and thought it was a DT song because it sounded like Never Enough.  I don't see how you could ever look at BMUBMD and any Red song and feel the same way.

Do I think it's a bummer DT seems to throw in at least one song per album that's obviously trying to emulate another band to some degree?  Yes.  But is it MP's place to call it plagiarism?  No way.  Is it plagiarism?  I don't see how.

[Jay.Ess]

This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.

This is not America. This is the internet. A universal forum for a universally known band. Get your head out of the clouds and respect the fact that there are people of other nationalities on this forum, for fuck's sake.

On topic, my take..not plagiarism, just influenced by. BMUBMD has more interesting melodies in my eyes anyway, and makes for a more interesting song.

[Gadough]

This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.

This is not America. This is the internet. A universal forum for a universally known band. Get your head out of the clouds and respect the fact that there are people of other nationalities on this forum, for fuck's sake.

lol

You need to buy a new troll detector, my friend.

[olliemedsy]

oh and lastly:

MP:If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it's their choice and doing...not mine!

...really? really? A bad response is clearly going to come from this so actually, it is indeed your doing 

He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.

Putting your hands over your eyes does not make you invisible.

This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.

Yeah, bun you!

[gentaishinigami]

Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves

I hope that this is the only song

No, those who say contrary actually understand music, and realize that there is zero musical similarity. It may have a similar vibe and structural similarities, but musically they're almost nothing alike.

  Couldn't have said it better myself.

[chwik]

Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves

I hope that this is the only song

No, those who say contrary actually understand music, and realize that there is zero musical similarity. It may have a similar vibe and structural similarities, but musically they're almost nothing alike.

Sorry, but I'm not letting MP's underhanded accusations become anything more than the bitter empty words that they are, and he's already given this more attention that it deserves.

I hate the whole lyrical quote thing, but hey it seems entirely appropriate here.

"Hypocrite
How could you be so cruel
and expect my faith in return?"

I agree! Good post! 

[Cruithne]

He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.

It brings to mind that bit in Star Wars when R5-D4's bad motivator pops, Uncle Owen asks the Jawas what they're trying to push on him and the chief Jawa throws out his arms with a "What, us?" gesture

[Lowdz]

oh and lastly:

MP:If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it's their choice and doing...not mine!

...really? really? A bad response is clearly going to come from this so actually, it is indeed your doing 

He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.

Putting your hands over your eyes does not make you invisible.

It's cowardice pure and simple. All he's done in the last year is push fans away. And I'm one of them.

[hefdaddy42]

This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.

Really?

Really?

[johncal]

Really, how much harm could this possible do to the band?  It's not like DT fans are going to hear about this then suddenly go "what the FUCK, Dream Theater? I may or may not have been ok with the countless other times you've done this sort of thing, but this time I'm through!" They're not going to lose their Grammy nomination over this. This isn't going to sully their name with the general public, since the general public still pretty much has no idea who they are outside of the fact that they recently got a Grammy nomination.

It's not going to do anything other than cause a stink that people will forget about after a few weeks and will only be brought up as another reason for people do dislike MP. It's a non problem; just MP fueling the flames again.

Anytime someone does damage to someones artistic credibility it's a serious thing.  Sure they may not be fan-less over the ordeal(s), but at the rate MP keeps chipping away at DT they are going to be so badly wounded in the minds of fans/potential fans that they may avoid them altogether  I don't think it's a dire situation or anything, but you can't deny the effect of public image on selling your goods.  If it wasn't important the world would be an entirely different place.     DT is getting a lot of negative exposure lately, and for a band that didn't exactly have a massive following that is going to hurt them eventually.  Now the accusations of plagiarism and copying their own songs are constantly going to be brought up as another reason to hate on them and it undermines all of their music as people are more likely to look for things now that they've "stolen" or "copied".  MP's smear campaign, whether intentional or not, is working (look on the RED video atm at the people saying essentially "omg portnoy said DT ripped off this song").  Before, when people said stuff about DT copying songs or whatnot it was by posters and wasn't usually put up in a hugely negative and confrontational way or published as "news" articles (to my knowledge).  They were stuffed in forums on the net and most people would have never heard about it.  MP has starpower and a pretty large following listening to his every word while he stands on his soapbox of social media and forums though.

Also, it would sully their name with the public because the public doesn't know who they are.  All they will hear (theoretically) is the condensed little sound-byte that DT accused of plagiarism, and that's all they will remember.  If they ever see something DT in the future they will probably look at it not as favorable (they had no sway at all before, and now they have negative thanks to the accusation, they certainly wouldn't like them more because of plagiarism!)

Anyway, it's not a huge deal either way, but it isn't something that should be downplayed.  It has a real effect on their fan-base and careers as well as the public perception of their music.     I just wish people would stop exaggerating how similar the songs are for their own desires or bias - including MP.

You're assuming MP's "star power" which I believe he lost when the truth came out about what a tool he is. I don't think most people here give a crap about what he says other than it pisses them off. Far from influencing if they'll continue to likeDT or not.

Also, I see huge similarities between the 2  couldn't careless. It's pretty hard to not see. As to whether or not you believe they did it on purpose and as to whether or not songwrting purity is essential to you is another story as to how it makes you personally feel. Kind of like the way auto mobile makers plagiarise each other all day long, yet we still know who made what! would you not but a Hyudai because it looks like a Toyota? The greatest inventions in the world were built on the work of others.

[gentaishinigami]

You're assuming MP's "star power" which I believe he lost when the truth came out about what a tool he is. I don't think most people here give a crap about what he says other than it pisses them off. Far from influencing if they'll continue to likeDT or not.

I don't think the people here are exactly the intended "audience" for his comments.  If you think MP has no fans or fame at all anymore I think that would be wishful thinking on your part.  Didn't he even just recently film some clips for a VH1 show about metal history (did anyone else from DT? I don't know I just saw the bit about him)?  Every time he speaks it makes headlines to some degree, even if it might be crappy online news sites lol.  He's no mega-star, but he does have a fair bit of recognition out there at this point.

He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.

It brings to mind that bit in Star Wars when R5-D4's bad motivator pops, Uncle Owen asks the Jawas what they're trying to push on him and the chief Jawa throws out his arms with a "What, us?" gesture

lmao, nice 

[snapple]

This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.

Really?

Really?

I was hoping the speaking "American" would be the biggest hint that I was joking.

[guitarmanchu]

Hey, I'm one of the biggest Petrucci fans out there, but I do think he sometimes crosses the line between inspiration and plagiarism.  This isn't the first time this has happened.  There's the Priest / ITPOE debacle from a while back, then after JP toured with Satriani in G3, there were some eerily similar riffs popping up in DT songs:

Check out the rhythm in 0:15 in Satriani's New Last Jam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-KL1zoWe0

Sound familiar?  Check out the rhythm in 2:40 of A Nightmare to Remember
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOW28D27ybM

Or check out the solo to Constant Motion and compare it to Satriani's "War"

....and then there's the whole ADTOE / IAW thing.

I don't Petrucci is looking to plagiarize directly, but you can see why people are starting to question it....  and this is coming from a Petrucci fanboy.

[BlobVanDam]

There really is no ADTOE/IaW thing. That whole crackpot theory was tinfoil hat level of comparison, and yet another case of MP intentionally force feeding fuel onto a non-existent fire. And yet people still bring it up as if it's more "proof". The only thing it's proved is MP's desperation to discredit DT without him.
If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.

[fibreoptix]

If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.

That would actually make for an interesting experiment you know!

[BlobVanDam]

If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.

That would actually make for an interesting experiment you know!

Don't think I didn't consider the very same thing myself.

[chwik]

Hey, I'm one of the biggest Petrucci fans out there, but I do think he sometimes crosses the line between inspiration and plagiarism.  This isn't the first time this has happened.  There's the Priest / ITPOE debacle from a while back, then after JP toured with Satriani in G3, there were some eerily similar riffs popping up in DT songs:

Check out the rhythm in 0:15 in Satriani's New Last Jam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-KL1zoWe0

Sound familiar?  Check out the rhythm in 2:40 of A Nightmare to Remember
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOW28D27ybM

Or check out the solo to Constant Motion and compare it to Satriani's "War"

....and then there's the whole ADTOE / IAW thing.

I don't Petrucci is looking to plagiarize directly, but you can see why people are starting to question it....  and this is coming from a Petrucci fanboy.

In your Satriani example Petrucci didn't cross the line at all. Sorry but I think that was a bad example.