Mike Mangini should be dubbed "Mike Metronome"

[atalkingfish]

If this makes any difference, I know the lighting guy plays the lights like an instrument, so those aren't operated by the click track.

[El Barto]

If this makes any difference, I know the lighting guy plays the lights like an instrument, so those aren't operated by the click track.

I was meaning to inquire about that.  I've seen him on other tours and he rocks out harder than the guys on stage.  Never saw him this tour,  so I'm not sure if that's still the case.  I do recall that by way of comparison,  when he left and Maiden's lighting guy took over,  his job was to press start before each song and then kick back and watch it all happen. 

But you're blending together a few different issues that don't necessarily impact one another.  If some songs require a click to sync up some audio or video, that doesn't change the fact that (1) the band can still mess around and extend or shorten "jam" sections of other songs in the set that don't require the click, and (2) that doesn't mean the band can't still be a bit loose and spontaneous even within a given section of a song.  A lot of spontaneity and ad libbing happens within the context of a given solo or instrumental section that, even if they change it up a bit, is still going to last the same number of measures and still have the same exact tempos, so whether the band is playing with a click or not, it doesn't really impact their ability to change things up a bit.

Out of curiosity,  if you saw DT 3 times on this tour,  would you rather see three different performances of Endless Sacrifice which ran 11:00,  11:20 and 11:40,  or would you prefer three identical 11:23 versions?

[hefdaddy42]

If the differences were only due to the tempo being off, and not anything structurally, I wouldn't care either way.

[El Barto]

If the differences were only due to the tempo being off, and not anything structurally, I wouldn't care either way.

I wouldn't necessarily think of it as being "off", though.  Maybe they felt inspired to play a section faster or slower.  That's what makes live music live. 

[hefdaddy42]

If the differences were only due to the tempo being off, and not anything structurally, I wouldn't care either way.

I wouldn't necessarily think of it as being "off", though.  Maybe they felt inspired to play a section faster or slower.  That's what makes live music live.

I think you are romanticizing it a little much.  They aren't Phish, they are DT.  In the past, if a song was played too fast or too slow, it had nothing to do with inspiration, it was just MP playing too fast or too slow.

[El Barto]

I think you are romanticizing it a little much.  They aren't Phish, they are DT.

Perhaps so.  Nevertheless,  I think music should be romanticized.

Speaking of MP,  didn't he at one point express the exact sentiment that I am?  I searched his FAQ for "click track,"  but didn't find what I was looking for, other than "I'd never use one live."  For some reason,  I seem to recall him expressing his disdain for the same reasons I am. 

[Ħ]

If they wanted to play a certain section slower, they could just recalibrate the click before the show.

[theseoafs]

If they wanted to play a certain section slower, they could just recalibrate the click before the show.

I think it's a bit much to assume that all the video, lighting, and sound cues could simply be "recalibrated" before the show. That's the reason they'd use the click, after all.

[johncal]

Seems pretty amazing to me how we can all just keep going on pure conjecture (myself included). We all know the odds of convincing someone to agree to our thinking are nil but I guess that's half the fun.

[Shattered Glass]

I don't know much about playing rock music -  I mean, my own experience is mainly classical and singing in choirs acapella - so, my reaction to hearing this "click track" stuff is not favourable.  I'd prefer MP playing fast or slow to this.  And, if the justification is to keep in time with lights, I think that the music itself is more important than lights or animation show (at a concert).  I agree with El Barto in that hearing this was the first time that I really started to miss MP.  I could not imagine performing with a metronome. 

I guess, popular music is different genre to what I'm used to and all, but I just find it really disappointing.  Obviously, the crowds are reacting well to the performance, so it doesn't hurt the performance but it just seems a strange way to perform. 

In relation to this -

If they wanted to play a certain section slower, they could just recalibrate the click before the show.

isn't a performance supposed to be a spur of the moment thing?    to this in general, me. 

[johncal]

This is more fun by the moment. People"reacting" like they are to a click or metronome that no one can prove is or is not used.

[Shattered Glass]

This is more fun by the moment. People"reacting" like they are to a click or metronome that no one can prove is or is not used.

are you saying that it's not being used?

Just also, if I haven't referred to your opinions as "opinions", I'd appreciate it if you don't refer to my reactions as "reactions". Thanks. 

[hefdaddy42]

I don't think he was pointing directly at you (or ONLY at you).  And opinions ARE opinions, and reactions ARE reactions.

And given the way that the light show/video show is done with a live operator who is responsible for all the sections and changes, I wouldn't be surprised if there is no click, and MM is just a consistent drummer.  There are lots of consistent drummers.  Just because MP wasn't always consistent with regard to tempo doesn't mean that other drummers aren't.

[johncal]

I don't think he was pointing directly at you (or ONLY at you).  And opinions ARE opinions, and reactions ARE reactions.

And given the way that the light show/video show is done with a live operator who is responsible for all the sections and changes, I wouldn't be surprised if there is no click, and MM is just a consistent drummer.  There are lots of consistent drummers.  Just because MP wasn't always consistent with regard to tempo doesn't mean that other drummers aren't.

Exactly my opinion as well. MM "may" use a click for 3-4 beats to establish the speed of the song since JP mentioned that they really wanted to get back to getting the speed the same as on the albums, but that's it. MM is certainly good enough to hold a tempo properly. He's beyond anal in his level of perfectionism (which is a good thing). But none of us really know for sure. But again I agree with your assesment.

[iamtheeviltwin]

Wasn't there a quote about Mangini being that consistent when someone claimed they used triggers on the studio album?

From what I have read MM is just that steady and reliable.  At "worst" he might use a click to set initial tempo.

[El Barto]

This is more fun by the moment. People"reacting" like they are to a click or metronome that no one can prove is or is not used.

I haven't made any claims one way or the other.  I'm actually enjoying a discussion about click-tracks in general.  If DT is using one now,  I'd consider it a great loss.  Others disagree.  Interesting topic of conversation.  The only person reacting to anything is you.

As for the speculation (which is also an interesting pastime),  who's triggering the canned vocals if it isn't sequenced in?  It wasn't JR. 

[Bardic Tortoise]

As for the speculation (which is also an interesting pastime),  who's triggering the canned vocals if it isn't sequenced in?  It wasn't JR. 

How do you know it wasn't JR? I seem to recall him triggering choral effects through his keyboard rig in prior shows. I saw the show live this tour and I can't think of any reason why it couldn't be him. I think he certainly has the chops to pull it off.

[El Barto]

As for the speculation (which is also an interesting pastime),  who's triggering the canned vocals if it isn't sequenced in?  It wasn't JR. 

How do you know it wasn't JR? I seem to recall him triggering choral effects through his keyboard rig in prior shows. I saw the show live this tour and I can't think of any reason why it couldn't be him. I think he certainly has the chops to pull it off.

Because I watched him.

[Spacebar.]

Didn't JP do a recent interview where he said the MM used a click? Source is eluding me right now ... but I clearly remember him saying that the rest of them had taken the music's timing for granted because they had been playing it for so long and he obviously hadn't

[CodyWanKenobi]

JP noted in a couple of intervirews that some of the stuff he has to play is so fast that if the songs are faster than normal it's just to hard to play them correctly. The best and only 100% sure way to do that is to begin the songs with a click.

Take most of the Budokan show for example. I mean, have you heard Endless Sacrifice off that CD? The solo is pretty sloppy, and I know JP can play it because he played it flawlessly at the Los Angeles show two months ago. Why? Because MM kept the song at a decent tempo. Good for MM for being considerate enough to make the songs as perfect sounding as possible.

[BlobVanDam]

JP noted in a couple of intervirews that some of the stuff he has to play is so fast that if the songs are faster than normal it's just to hard to play them correctly. The best and only 100% sure way to do that is to begin the songs with a click.

Take most of the Budokan show for example. I mean, have you heard Endless Sacrifice off that CD? The solo is pretty sloppy, and I know JP can play it because he played it flawlessly at the Los Angeles show two months ago. Why? Because MM kept the song at a decent tempo. Good for MM for being considerate enough to make the songs as perfect sounding as possible.

I checked the Endless Sacrifice guitar solos against the original CD, and checked the exact length down to the beat. I checked all 3 of JP's solo sections individually (since there were keyboard solos inbetween) and the Budokan solos were between only 1.02% and 1.06% faster, ie not even noticable. I'd call that a damn fine bit of timing from MP, actually. If JP played any of those solos badly, it's only his own fault. Those solos were breakneck speed on the CD, especially the last sweepy bit, so it's no surprise if he flubbed them live. Musicians can have on and off nights. Happens to all of them.

The main time I've felt that MP's live drumming was too fast for JP is the opening arps of TGP, another instance where it was just breakneck speed on the CD, leaving no room for faster tempos. I would kill to hear that song live with MM. Screw the no MP lyrics thing.

I'm not disagreeing that some songs were too fast with MP though. On Budokan Goodnight Kiss/Solitary Shell and Disappear completely lose the vibe for me and I can't listen to those versions, but the heavier songs like the ToT stuff were mostly either the right tempo, or only slightly faster, and being a heavier album the extra energy lends itself well to that kind of music. Sometimes it just works well for the live environment and is part of the live experience. Occasionally it's taken too far.

[rumborak]

The main time I've felt that MP's live drumming was too fast for JP is the opening arps of TGP

The interesting part is that, most likely when that happened, it was JP's fault. We played that tune too, and the one deciding the tempo for the song is actually the guitarist because you play the opening riff alone before the band sets up. I have gotten myself into trouble more than once starting off way too fast, and when the arps came, cursing myself

BTW, regarding click tracks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7jikeIyKaE

I was surprised they used click tracks for the SFAM recording.

rumborak

[BlobVanDam]

I'd be more surprised if they didn't! They were even using click tracks far back as IaW. It's rare to find an album that doesn't use one these days.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, especially in the world of modern recording using things like Pro Tools where everything is digital, you almost have to use a click to record.

[Bardic Tortoise]

As for the speculation (which is also an interesting pastime),  who's triggering the canned vocals if it isn't sequenced in?  It wasn't JR. 

How do you know it wasn't JR? I seem to recall him triggering choral effects through his keyboard rig in prior shows. I saw the show live this tour and I can't think of any reason why it couldn't be him. I think he certainly has the chops to pull it off.

Because I watched him.

Touche.

[CodyWanKenobi]

MP uses them with TA.

[CodyWanKenobi]

In the studio, that is.

[Blazinarps]

As for the speculation (which is also an interesting pastime),  who's triggering the canned vocals if it isn't sequenced in?  It wasn't JR. 

How do you know it wasn't JR? I seem to recall him triggering choral effects through his keyboard rig in prior shows. I saw the show live this tour and I can't think of any reason why it couldn't be him. I think he certainly has the chops to pull it off.

Because I watched him.

Touche.

Jordan is the one cueing all samples.  It's a sample that's played into his keyboard, and then he hits the key that triggers it.  You wouldn't be able to tell by "watching" him.  There is no special movement, just hitting a key.

[CodyWanKenobi]

As for the speculation (which is also an interesting pastime),  who's triggering the canned vocals if it isn't sequenced in?  It wasn't JR. 

How do you know it wasn't JR? I seem to recall him triggering choral effects through his keyboard rig in prior shows. I saw the show live this tour and I can't think of any reason why it couldn't be him. I think he certainly has the chops to pull it off.

Because I watched him.

Touche.

Jordan is the one cueing all samples.  It's a sample that's played into his keyboard, and then he hits the key that triggers it.  You wouldn't be able to tell by "watching" him.  There is no special movement, just hitting a key.

...boom goes the dynamite...

[rumborak]

Yeah, especially in the world of modern recording using things like Pro Tools where everything is digital, you almost have to use a click to record.

Not that we were doing it professionally, but we actually had to force the studio guy to let us record TDOE without a click. Problem was that nothing was prepared, so he was trying to create the click track on the fly.

rumborak

[El Barto]

As for the speculation (which is also an interesting pastime),  who's triggering the canned vocals if it isn't sequenced in?  It wasn't JR. 

How do you know it wasn't JR? I seem to recall him triggering choral effects through his keyboard rig in prior shows. I saw the show live this tour and I can't think of any reason why it couldn't be him. I think he certainly has the chops to pull it off.

Because I watched him.

Touche.

Jordan is the one cueing all samples.  It's a sample that's played into his keyboard, and then he hits the key that triggers it.  You wouldn't be able to tell by "watching" him.  There is no special movement, just hitting a key.

...boom goes the dynamite...

In the past,  samples have been tied to the lowest keys,  so it's pretty obvious when he triggers them.  I suppose it is possible that he's mapped them to notes he's playing, or more likely the pedal.  The problem with that is that,  while I'm not positive,  I think I recall some JLB backing vox while he was not at his main keyboard.


From MP's FAQ:

MP: I prefer using a click track in the studio, although I would never use one on stage. In the studio, it's a real comfortable thing to have, because it allow me to concentrate on the performance and not think so much about the time. The problem with click tracks and our music is that we play a lot of odd time signatures and changing meters, so you have to be careful with what type of click you use. A quarter-note click played over several changing 8th-note based meters will make things more confusing. In general, I always use some type of 8th-note click, which will work for most of the odd meters we play.

[Blazinarps]

Yeah it's been on the lowest key(s) because he is unlikely to use them in performance.  MP using clicks is irrelevant to MM using clicks. The fact remains that nobody can tell by listening if they are using clicks or not.  Especially not while seeing them live. 

[El Barto]

MP using clicks is irrelevant to MM using clicks. The fact remains that nobody can tell by listening if they are using clicks or not.  Especially not while seeing them live.

Indeed.  MP's use of clicks has been a recent point of discussion, though.

[rumborak]

I'm usually not a big fan of clicks live. In the case of DT's music, I guess it's alright because DT's music isn't exactly the most spontaneous, one might say

rumborak

[hefdaddy42]

And that's the whole thing.  Their music is highly orchestrated and arranged.  They don't do things at random on stage very often.