If Breaking All Illusions was a ~20 minute epic...

[Vajra]

-4 minute instrumental intro
-Far From Heaven (with JM lyrics instead)
-FFH right into BAI without a pause (because they flow into each other seamlessly)
-An extended version of the first soft section of BAI
-An extended version of the heavy section
-The main chorus
-The instrumental section
-A new verse/chorus section, followed by the main chorus
-The reprisal of the Far From Heaven music followed by the finale


What do you guys think? Would you have liked to have seen that as a song?

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Cool story bro.

[SystematicThought]

It's fine as it is in all honesty. On first listen, it almost felt too long.

[RaiseTheKnife]

Yeah, if every song is a 20 minute epic, then they'd start losing their special appeal.

[Chimpi]

I kind of like it as it is, honestly...

[PetFish]

Lame idea.  It's already an epic.  What's this obsession with way-too-long songs anyway?  I'm so glad every track on ADToE is all killer and no filler.

[toro]

long =/= epic

[MasterLomaxus]

I think it would be pretty cool.

[PetFish]

long =/= epic

For some reason I forgot to say that part cuz I always do.  It's pretty much my motto whenever someone brings up "epic" songs.  It's like, just cuz a song is long (what's the stereotypical minimum song length anyway to be considered "epic"?) it's automatically "epic" and that's just lame.  So much Transatlantic stuff for me is just "long" and not "epic" at all.

Also, I absolutely loathe the word "epic", it's so over-used and has almost no meaning anymore.  For example, once people started to say stupid stuff like "I had an epic sandwich for lunch" it was pretty much over.

However, one of my favourite "epic" songs is Hell's Kitchen but for some reason they never play it.

[Pols Voice]

To me, an epic is usually 16 minutes plus, with several subsections and usually with repeated musical themes. The term "epic" has been used to describe certain prog songs for a long time. A long song that doesn't change much, or is more of a jam, isn't an epic IMO.

But anyway, no, I'm glad BAI is the length it is. I'm pretty burned out on 20 minute long songs, to be honest.

[Cranky]

I'm kind of burned out on the 20+ minute long "epics" for now, maybe on their next album.
I think the new album was doing a great thing by keeping the song lengths tasteful and tactful... As much as Dream Theater can, at least.

[DJay32]

*reads replies*

..*sighs*

"Epic" is a noun meaning "Work of grand stature." If a song is known as an epic, that means, by definition, it is of grand stature. It is long. To use it as an adjective, it would still refer to works of grand stature. It's not impossible for a not-lengthy song to be an epic, but it would take something quite remarkable.

And don't give me that "Common usage" bull, because common usage still uses this definition. Some people just happen to mistake it for "awesome."

"Breaking All Illusions" may or may not be an epic, depending on how long you'd consider "grand stature" to be. To me, it's not. To me, if the song was around the twenty-minute length, I'd probably listen to it a lot more. Thank you, and please have a nice night.

[Zantera]

As it is now, it is my favorite on the new album.
If they had made it 8 minutes longer, it would probably have been my least favorite.

So yeah, I'd rather have it as it is now.

[Ben_Jamin]

Funny part is it does Reprise Far From Heaven at the end.

[Infinite Cactus]

The only part I wish was longer is the funk section in the middle, other than that, I say leave it alone

[?]

One thing I like about ADTOE is that they didn't try to write overlong songs, and I like BAI as it is.

[Mbarak]

One thing I like about ADTOE is that they didn't try to write overlong songs, and I like BAI as it is.

Exactly. If it was like the OP described, it would be back in the vein of BC&SL writing where every good riff idea has to be stretched out and played in every single way (e.g. just the riff, riff+keys, intro/outro to solo, beneath the solo...etc) before moving to the next section

I love how DT seem to restrain (maybe humble?) themselves in ADTOE. There is much less self-indulgent noodling than we have seen since I dare say FII.

[Progmetty]

Can we close registeration for DTF a couple of month? I think more of these people will be unmanageable.








































j/k cool story bro.

[Metabog]

BAI is the perfect length.

[Mladen]

It's great as it is. 

[hefdaddy42]

*reads replies*

..*sighs*

"Epic" is a noun meaning "Work of grand stature." If a song is known as an epic, that means, by definition, it is of grand stature. It is long. To use it as an adjective, it would still refer to works of grand stature. It's not impossible for a not-lengthy song to be an epic, but it would take something quite remarkable.

And don't give me that "Common usage" bull, because common usage still uses this definition. Some people just happen to mistake it for "awesome."

"Breaking All Illusions" may or may not be an epic, depending on how long you'd consider "grand stature" to be. To me, it's not. To me, if the song was around the twenty-minute length, I'd probably listen to it a lot more. Thank you, and please have a nice night.

"Grand stature" still doesn't necessarily have anything to do with length.  That would mean a song could be 20 minutes long and crappy, and still be an epic. 

[FlyingBIZKIT]

Fine as is.

[Xanthul]

ep·ic   /ˈɛpɪk/ Spelled[ep-ik]
adjective Also, ep·i·cal. 
1. noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style: Homer's Iliad is an epic poem.
2. resembling or suggesting such poetry: an epic novel on the founding of the country.
3. heroic; majestic; impressively great: the epic events of the war.
4. of unusually great size or extent: a crime wave of epic proportions.

According to definition 4, a 20 minute crappy song IS epic.
According to definition 3, a 4 minute impressive song (hello Hell's Kitchen) IS epic.

Can we all just bask in the fact that everyone is right?

[Phoenix87x]

Less is Moore

[senecadawg2]

The song is great as is. It COULD be cool as a 20 minute song... Doesn't mean it would be better or even more 'epic'.

[johncal]

*reads replies*

..*sighs*

"Epic" is a noun meaning "Work of grand stature." If a song is known as an epic, that means, by definition, it is of grand stature. It is long. To use it as an adjective, it would still refer to works of grand stature. It's not impossible for a not-lengthy song to be an epic, but it would take something quite remarkable.

And don't give me that "Common usage" bull, because common usage still uses this definition. Some people just happen to mistake it for "awesome."

"Breaking All Illusions" may or may not be an epic, depending on how long you'd consider "grand stature" to be. To me, it's not. To me, if the song was around the twenty-minute length, I'd probably listen to it a lot more. Thank you, and please have a nice night.

To be "epic" by your definition, the work needs to be of "grand stature". I didn't see anywhere where the exclusive definition of grand stature=long or even defined that way at all. Grand stature could just refer to superior emotional or historical quality, maybe large or big, which doesn't necessarily mean long. There are epic stories, epic works of art, epic battles, etc. these are usually epic for their historical or emotional significance, so I'm not convinced. I don't consider SDOIT epic by any means and it's massively long To me BAI is definitely "epic" by it's emotionally soaring guitar solos and instrumentation sections, classic foundation, and sheer power.

Epic "can" be long, but doesn't have to be to meet the definition only IMO and it's accepted definition.

ep·ic (pk)
n.
1. An extended narrative poem in elevated or dignified language, celebrating the feats of a legendary or traditional hero.
2. A literary or dramatic composition that resembles an extended narrative poem celebrating heroic feats.
3. A series of events considered appropriate to an epic: the epic of the Old West.
adj.
1. Of, constituting, having to do with, or suggestive of a literary epic: an epic poem.
2. Surpassing the usual or ordinary, particularly in scope or size: "A vast musical panorama . . . it requires an epic musical understanding to do it justice" (Tim Page).
3. Heroic and impressive in quality: "Here in the courtroom . . . there was more of that epic atmosphere, the extra amperage of a special moment" (Scott Turow).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[From Latin epicus, from Greek epikos, from epos, word, song; see wekw- in Indo-European roots.]

[ddtonfire]

semantics schemantics.

My definition of "epic" is if I feel the song has taken me on a journey once I've finished listening to it.

[m0hawk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEH98_Ha2aA&feature=related

Would that be considered "epic"?

[RuRoRul]

If it was 20 minutes long, the extra eight minutes would probably be made up by an extended version of the section starting at 9:07, since that's the only section they seemed to feel could do with being drawn out way longer than it needs to be.

I'm not going to say I'm glad they didn't make it 20 minutes long, because for all I know they could have made it just as good or even better in that time. If it had been a 20 minute song people (including myself) would quite possibly still be saying that it's perfect as it is, it shouldn't be any longer or shorter. They can make a song however long they want as long as it's good, and they obviously wanted this one to be twelve minutes and succeeded in making it a great song, so I am happy.

[Millais]

Lame idea.  It's already an epic.  What's this obsession with way-too-long songs anyway?  I'm so glad every track on ADToE is all killer and no filler.

[energythief]

It's perfect the way it is.

[snowdog]

I don't really care for the discussion on what is "epic" and what is not.  But I definitely agree with others in this thread that I'm VERY thankful that they didn't try to make it a long song just for the sake of it.  I don't feel any of the songs on this album have any filler thankfully.  BC&SL on the other hand had filler on practically every song, with the only possible exception being Wither.   I know I'll likely get flak for this on this board but I personally think 6DOIT(the song) is at least 15 minutes too long, if not more.

[johncal]

I don't really care for the discussion on what is "epic" and what is not.  But I definitely agree with others in this thread that I'm VERY thankful that they didn't try to make it a long song just for the sake of it.  I don't feel any of the songs on this album have any filler thankfully.  BC&SL on the other hand had filler on practically every song, with the only possible exception being Wither.   I know I'll likely get flak for this on this board but I personally think 6DOIT(the song) is at least 15 minutes too long, if not more.

No flak from me on SDOIT. The overature was a good idea but could have been cut way down. Glass Prison, Blind Faith, The Great Debate, and a tidier version of SDOIT on 1 disk would have been the #1 album of all time IMO.

[reneranucci]

Not another discussion about epicness, please. Everytime someone makes a thread referring to epics someone will jump in on the 5th post saying "Space Dye Vest is an epic cuz it's very emotional and Wait for Sleep is way more epic than the Count of Tuscany", dictionaries will be quoted, etc. Leave people have their own opinions about music.

But an epic has to me at least 18 minutes with 40 seconds long because Close to the Edge was the first mother of all epics. That's a fact.

[johncal]

Not another discussion about epicness, please. Everytime someone makes a thread referring to epics someone will jump in on the 5th post saying "Space Dye Vest is an epic cuz it's very emotional and Wait for Sleep is way more epic than the Count of Tuscany", dictionaries will be quoted, etc. Leave people have their own opinions about music.

But an epic has to me at least 18 minutes with 40 seconds long because Close to the Edge was the first mother of all epics. That's a fact.

Can't say I agree with the 18:40 part (jokingly) but I definitely agree it was the mother of all epics. I listened to that almost every day for a couple of years and still play it now and again!