MP about I&W and ADTOE connection

[ariich]

And for the flip side of this coin...for me the structural similarities stick out like a big huge throbbing sore thumb.  Sorry Orcas you don't hear them, but the FACT remains they are there (as Thiago pointed out in his break-down) and I am actually in MPs camp on this one, it is a strange thing for DT to do.  For me this album is a big let down on this basis because everything that has been reworked on ADTOE pales in comparison to I&W and that's what I hear when I listen to this album.

Now I don't claim to be a huge expert but I'm going to challenge your FACTS by stating that "Images And Words" is far and away one of my favorite albums of all time and after listening to ADOTE I heard absolutely zero connection between the two albums. Trust me, I'd fucking know if any of those songs sounded like the songs off of IAW, which I know back to front. Comparing the two albums as any sort of criticism against the new album just sounds like zany conspiracy bullshit to fill in for any lack of real criticisms about the music and for people who can't get over the fact that Portnoy isn't in the band any more.

I don't think you understand the concept of structural similarities. Nobody said the music is the same, or that you would like it the same amount. The song STRUCTURES are very similar.

Also, am I missing something with this comment? It was a bit of an over-defensive thing for MP to say, but people seem to be acting like it was a huge attack on the band and I don't understand why.

EDIT: Oh and Thiago, thanks very much for posting an explanation, I thought it was pretty obvious that you weren't bashing the album, but you have to understand that some people think that everything MP says or does must be evil for some reason.

[hefdaddy42]

I read that comparison, and listened to the songs.  And while some of the things he said had merit, some others are very forced.  And frankly, I think MP is being somewhat disingenuous when he says that he noticed it right off the bat.

Possibly, but given what we know of his personality and his situation, it's very possible and even possibly likely that he listened to the album with the intent of finding something wrong with it.

I think it's more likely that he didn't notice anything until reading that guy's article, and then he used that for artillery.

Sorry hef - you're wrong in this assumption, and I say that as a fact.

Scotty, if you say it's a fact, I believe you, and for once I'm glad to be wrong.  Thanks for the correction.

And for the record, I don't think there is anything wrong with Thiago noticing any similarities or reporting on them, but I think his timing really sucks.  He probably should have waited until after the album was released.

[Millais]

First off, I agree with the comparisons in principle. The songs do bear some similarities, especially LNF and UAGM and OTBoA and PMU. In fact, I noticed them too. However, some of your comparisons were VERY far fetched (BMU, BMD and Surrounded? Do me a favour mate...) and to present them as gospel like that was a bit too much. I also don't think the band sat down and said, ok, let's take these songs from 'Images' and write them again. No way. They probably just went back to what they consider their best work (Images...), listened to it again, then what came out came out. It happens to me. if I listen to some mathcore, what I write for a while afterwards will be noticeably more math influenced. To say the band sat down with the arrangements from 1992 is downright presumptious. I also appreciate you coming on here to clear up any confusion. The majority of the people here really dig the album regardless of what influenced it and that will continue to be the case.

However, please, please, please remove the chip from your shoulder about your "qualifications"! It's very condescending and comes across as very high and mighty and is why people have taken issue to what you have said in the way you have said it. While your DT covers are very, very good, it does not make you a divine authority on Dream Theater any more than the next fan. And this comes from a bass player who really enjoys picking apart JMX's basslines. So please tone that down mate, because no one wants to hear it. The rest of us, whatever our qualifications may be, don't go around saying "as an sales exec I can confirm that the band's sales strategy is a rip of this band's sales strategy" or whatever. It's tiresome.

p.s. do some more covers with Will Shaw. The Metropolis one ripped.

this sums up my thoughts perfectly. there are 2, possibly 3 similar structures of songs. the rest are forced and at most, pretty vague. honestly, i think the similarities in these 2 (possibly 3) songs are pretty cool as well.

[SjundeInseglet]

This whole "similar structure" deal hasn't hampered my enjoyment of the record one bit (and it really shouldn't hamper anyone else's either... which, thankfully, seems to be the case considering most people aren't bothered by it at all). Following a previously-established structure makes everything sound more cohesive and "together". That's why people do it all the time. Is that really such a bad thing? I, for one, couldn't care less as long as the music sounds good (and in ADToE it clearly does to my ears).

[Infinite Cactus]

I guess I'm the only one who was legitimately excited to notice the similarities. I thought it was a neat idea.

[Infinite Cactus]

And I actually feel like certain songs were done on purpose with the intent of being discovered over time. But lol at the immediate discovery. Also, I felt like BMUBMD is more Caught in a Web anyway. 

[Knguro]

I guess I'm the only one who was legitimately excited to notice the similarities. I thought it was a neat idea.

Not only you man, I dig it too, I don't give a shit, I rather have similarities with I&W than Muse.

[3xodus]

welp.. I, for one, am a little tired of playing devil's advocate with MP. I have been able to legitimately explain and rationally think of reasons for him to say the things he has in the past.. But this is just childish and immature of him. There's really no reason to comment in public about the album in such a way. This is one comment that he has made that has no explanation other than it's intended to be hateful and dismissive towards the bands newest effort. sigh..

[Resonate]

The only questions/concerns I  have about Thiago's original analysis is if he published it based off a leaked copy of ADTOE?  And if so, why did he do that?  Why not wait to publish his article until the album was ethically available to him? 

Listening to a leak of ADTOE "privately" before official release/purchase is  one thing.  Writing an article about said leak and uploading to FB or elsewhere, I think that was very unfair to the band, if that is what he originally did.  He says in his article, dated 9-5, that "I have heard the album", but he does not say how he heard it.  Or that he had a band provided copy. Or I missed that.  So this is why I wonder.

Regarding MP's comments yesterday, as much as there seem to be people here on this forum upset with him, there are people who seem to be even more upset with him on his own forum.  I've read harsher (harsher to me anyway) comments against him over there than what people are saying here,  which is a big surprise to me.  I personally don't have anything to say about his comments one way or the other. 

I just plan to enjoy the album as much as possible in spite of all this when I get it on Tuesday. Can't wait!!   

[TheKillingHand]

Listening to a leak of ADTOE "privately" before official release/purchase is  one thing.  Writing an article about said leak and uploading to FB or elsewhere, I think that was very unfair to the band, if that is what he originally did.  He says in his article, dated 9-5, that "I have heard the album", but he does not say how he heard it.  Or that he had a band provided copy. Or I missed that.  So this is why I wonder.

Yeah, and not long ago Dream Theater posted his band's OTBOA cover and spoke highly of it. Nice way to repay them...

[DreamerTV]

Not because he's feeling bitter (which IMO he rightfully is),

- Thiago Campos

I didn't want to talk about that, even if yesterday i was strongly tempted to (the funny fact of "A Change Of Seasons, Octavarium, Learning To Live, Pull Me Under and The Glass Prison....all on one album.... " but as i know that someone smart as Adami would eventually come up with that i desisted), but i'll say this: if you wright something potentially controversial, which yours in fact is, and you post it on the forum of someone you clearly know, as said by yourself, has bitter feelings towards the object(s) of your statement, it sound at least strange that you were not searching for that kind of reaction. In our main ADTOE thread you could  find, quite early, YtseBitsySpider (hope i'm not wrong with the user/post association) saying basically what you said. So you could have talk easily with everyone else without going to pick someone as sensitive on this matter in this moment as Mike. I'm not saying you've done with negative purpose, it's just that you could have considered in the range of possible consquences what eventually happened, and so try to avoid it. Anyway, nothing against what you've wright for itself.

Cheers

[Super Dude]

I'm sorry but I really can't see how people can still defend MP.  I understand that *maybe* he just unintentionally let that slip (which to me seems really suspect as it is), but at age 40+, and for someone who's been involved in drama before no less, he should know to just not say anything for his own good.

What really irks me though is that he did succeed: he's dividing the fan base.  Nobody really wants that, do they?  It's just bad for everyone and it could potentially mean that this album doesn't become the much-needed comeback.  Who knows what happens if this turns out to be the "failed" SFAM?

[cyberdrummer]

I'm confident that all the press coverage surrounding MP's departure and everything that has followed will actually increase sales in the end. I'm sure this will be the band's most successful album to date (perhaps with the exception of I&W).

[BlobVanDam]

What really irks me though is that he did succeed: he's dividing the fan base.  Nobody really wants that, do they?  It's just bad for everyone and it could potentially mean that this album doesn't become the much-needed comeback.  Who knows what happens if this turns out to be the "failed" SFAM?

Come on, 95% of the fanbase buying this album won't know or even give a shit about these online shenanigans like the forums do. It's already got the pre-orders to guarantee it's going to be as successful as other recent DT albums, and nobody is going to change their mind to buy the album at this stage because of something this silly.

[Super Dude]

I dunno, it concerns me greatly that as someone else said, "near-unanimous praise turned to near-unanimous acrimony," unless that's just a thread full of ass-kissing now.

That behavior just pisses me off.  I'm half his age (not even, actually) and I have more tact.

[DreamerTV]

Come on, 95% of the fanbase buying this album won't know or even give a shit about these online shenanigans like the forums do. It's already got the pre-orders to guarantee it's going to be as successful as other recent DT albums, and nobody is going to change their mind to buy the album at this stage because of something this silly.

I was reading posts on fb and forums and thinking exactly this.

[King Postwhore]

I just think that Mike wears his heart on his sleeves and most of the time he leaps before thinking of it.  Some people don't have a filter and Mike seems to be to be that way.  I understand his hurt.  I do, but he hurt himself.  I will always follow him and his music and I will continue to love DT.

[Super Dude]

Right, that's why I refuse to feel bad for him.  Not only is he not trying to move on, not only is he purposely burning his bridges, he's doing so over something he did to himself.  No matter how bitter you may feel about the situation you're in, if you're at fault you should at least have the maturity and wisdom to just accept it.

[BlobVanDam]

I dunno, it concerns me greatly that as someone else said, "near-unanimous praise turned to near-unanimous acrimony," unless that's just a thread full of ass-kissing now.

That behavior just pisses me off.  I'm half his age (not even, actually) and I have more tact.

Is there anywhere besides MP's forum where this is the case though? Because we know that's not an accurate representation for many reasons.
I don't see anyone turning against DT here on DTF, even those who agree with the comparisons. In the grand scheme, this whole thing isn't even a blip imo.

[duncan3dc]

I think it's a real shame that the similarities are being received in this way. When I found out I was really looking forward to a thread on here discussing various sections as people discovered them.
In a similar way to when people find the shared sections between Far From Heaven and Breaking All Illusions. People post about those with excitement, and other users are glad to have them pointed out.

But for some reason when pointing out similarities in structure between Images & Words songs and Dramatic Turn songs, a lot of people get very defensive about it, in a "so what?!" kinda way 

[Knguro]

Thiago: I really admire your passion for the band and it's really motivating, but come on man you were talking about similarities? What about you and your band sounding like DT I mean its kind of waaaaaay to close, same guitar, same bass, same amps but really who gives a dogs shit! why don't you go back keep doing your own stuff, cause now you made a big deal out of nothing, and yes I've read your posts on MP forum and they are a lot more agressive when making your statements "clear", please enjoy your last 15 minutes of fame with this, cause all of your possitive feedback on you cover project it might not be that good anymore.  Don't take me wrong your passion is leading you to the wrong direction I'm telling you this honestly.

And this will be the boiling point:

For those of you who do agree with my theories or are slowly figuring this out, awesome! If you wanna discuss about it I'm up for it. In fact, I might just write "my charts" for the Outcry - Metropolis, Breaking all Illusions - Learning to Live, On the Backs of Angels - Pull me Under comparisons next week.

- Thiago Campos

[KevShmev]

Also, am I missing something with this comment? It was a bit of an over-defensive thing for MP to say, but people seem to be acting like it was a huge attack on the band and I don't understand why.

EDIT: Oh and Thiago, thanks very much for posting an explanation, I thought it was pretty obvious that you weren't bashing the album, but you have to understand that some people think that everything MP says or does must be evil for some reason.

Why am I not surprised that this is your reaction?

[Knguro]

I thought we were looking for an old school oriented album guys, I really don't get whats he big deal I love every single "similarity" with I&W, I dig it! So what? MP mad? No fucking doubt about it. If ADToE will be a hit? sure fucking thing. I'm done with this drama.

[Bertielee]

Also, am I missing something with this comment? It was a bit of an over-defensive thing for MP to say, but people seem to be acting like it was a huge attack on the band and I don't understand why.

EDIT: Oh and Thiago, thanks very much for posting an explanation, I thought it was pretty obvious that you weren't bashing the album, but you have to understand that some people think that everything MP says or does must be evil for some reason.

Why am I not surprised that this is your reaction?

Indeed, I was waiting for this one from Ariich too.

B.Lee

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Thiago: I really admire your passion for the band and it's really motivating, but come on man you were talking about similarities? What about you and your band sounding like DT I mean its kind of waaaaaay to close, same guitar, same bass, same amps but really who gives a dogs shit! why don't you go back keep doing your own stuff, cause now you made a big deal out of nothing, and yes I've read your posts on MP forum and they are a lot more agressive when making your statements "clear", please enjoy your last 15 minutes of fame with this, cause all of your possitive feedback on you cover project it might not be that good anymore.  Don't take me wrong your passion is leading you to the wrong direction I'm telling you this honestly.

Thiago did nothing wrong. He noticed something about ADTOE that no one had written about before, and decided to write about it, the entire time praising the album. His musings are not critiques; they are merely observations.

[ariich]

Also, am I missing something with this comment? It was a bit of an over-defensive thing for MP to say, but people seem to be acting like it was a huge attack on the band and I don't understand why.

EDIT: Oh and Thiago, thanks very much for posting an explanation, I thought it was pretty obvious that you weren't bashing the album, but you have to understand that some people think that everything MP says or does must be evil for some reason.

Why am I not surprised that this is your reaction?

Well maybe someone can explain it for me?

[Bertielee]

Thiago: I really admire your passion for the band and it's really motivating, but come on man you were talking about similarities? What about you and your band sounding like DT I mean its kind of waaaaaay to close, same guitar, same bass, same amps but really who gives a dogs shit! why don't you go back keep doing your own stuff, cause now you made a big deal out of nothing, and yes I've read your posts on MP forum and they are a lot more agressive when making your statements "clear", please enjoy your last 15 minutes of fame with this, cause all of your possitive feedback on you cover project it might not be that good anymore.  Don't take me wrong your passion is leading you to the wrong direction I'm telling you this honestly.

Thiago did nothing wrong. He noticed something about ADTOE that no one had written about before, and decided to write about it, the entire time praising the album. His musings are not critiques; they are merely observations.

Sure, but he should have waited for the album to be released. It's not what he wrote- hey, he knows DT a lot better than I do(albeit I've been a fan for almost 20 years) and it's a very interesting read- but he should have waited, really. Plus, come on, his tone has been more than condescending when defending his point of view. Some of us may not be musicians but we're not fools for that matter.

B.Lee

[Bertielee]

Also, am I missing something with this comment? It was a bit of an over-defensive thing for MP to say, but people seem to be acting like it was a huge attack on the band and I don't understand why.

EDIT: Oh and Thiago, thanks very much for posting an explanation, I thought it was pretty obvious that you weren't bashing the album, but you have to understand that some people think that everything MP says or does must be evil for some reason.

Why am I not surprised that this is your reaction?

Well maybe someone can explain it for me?

Sure. You've always been the MP defender, trying to find that what MP said / did had nothing wrong. Never. And that's why we love you, Ariich!

B.Lee

[cyberdrummer]

If DT really wanted to imitate Images and Words and its structure, then why did JP add Beneath the Surface at the end of the album? Surely in doing that he destroys any notion of religiously 'rewriting the past'.

Loving the album by the way. 

[Kotowboy]

Images and Words & A Dramatic Turn Of Events both have 5 syllables.


It's just that ADToE has more 


Although on the other hand...

I&W = 5.
ADTOE = 8.

ZOMG NUGGETZZZZZZ 

[KevShmev]

Rich, no need to explain it.  It is obvious.  Almost everyone else is seeing it, and if you don't, well, I'd say that you probably need to take off your rose covered glasses for once.

Also, who thinks that everything Portnoy does or says must be evil?  You jump all over anyone who speculates or exaggerates too much, but now you are doing the exact same thing. 

TOX, had he left the original breakdown as is, it would have been fine (even though the majority of it is a major reach), but him writing the follow up about how DT fans are apparently ignorant and stupid (or whatever he said) and then taking the overly-defensive, condescending tone that he did (read the thread on Portnoy's forum to see this) made him look like, well, not good (I can't use the word I wanted to since he is now a member here and I don't feel like getting chastised for attacking a fellow poster).  If you can read all of that and still say, "He did nothing wrong," well, I would ask you to give Rich his glasses back.

[SjundeInseglet]

Sure, but he should have waited for the album to be released. It's not what he wrote- hey, he knows DT a lot better than I do(albeit I've been a fan for almost 20 years) and it's a very interesting read- but he should have waited, really. Plus, come on, his tone has been more than condescending when defending his point of view. Some of us may not be musicians but we're not fools for that matter.

B.Lee

Plus he posted a link to his FB article three times over at MP.com  (urging people to check his analysis out). Oh and he went ahead and actually posted the whole thing there when he noticed no one was actually paying much attention to his insistent posts. Nobody still cared... until MP showed up and commented on it, that is.

[TL]

What really irks me though is that he did succeed: he's dividing the fan base.  Nobody really wants that, do they?  It's just bad for everyone and it could potentially mean that this album doesn't become the much-needed comeback.  Who knows what happens if this turns out to be the "failed" SFAM?

Come on, 95% of the fanbase buying this album won't know or even give a shit about these online shenanigans like the forums do. It's already got the pre-orders to guarantee it's going to be as successful as other recent DT albums, and nobody is going to change their mind to buy the album at this stage because of something this silly.

This. I wouldn't be shocked if there are some fans who pick up the special edition, put on the DVD, and are like "Wait... Portnoy left?".
I mean, the album has already become their highest charting record in Japan. Most DT fans don't really give a shit about all this drama, they just like listening to the music.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

TOX, had he left the original breakdown as is, it would have been fine (even though the majority of it is a major reach), but him writing the follow up about how DT fans are apparently ignorant and stupid (or whatever he said) and then taking the overly-defensive, condescending tone that he did (read the thread on Portnoy's forum to see this) made him look like, well, not good (I can't use the word I wanted to since he is now a member here and I don't feel like getting chastised for attacking a fellow poster).  If you can read all of that and still say, "He did nothing wrong," well, I would ask you to give Rich his glasses back.

I guess I just assumed that people were only pissed about his original post. Never bothered to see what had transpired since. Apologies to all for my laziness.

[Zook]

MP is extremely childish and the Dave Mustaine of the internets.

@ Thiago: we all know you play covers 1 hour after the song is released (my opinion of that is highly negative).. but making reviews without even being an "official journalist" is wrong.

wut

That's like saying only people who play instruments can critique another person's playing. Also, what's negative about the guys playing DT covers? Excluding your extreme exaggeration of the time frame of course.