MP about I&W and ADTOE connection

[orcus116]

Peter Griffin, sir - MP could fart and people would say it was a personal attack on DT. If he says something nice it would be twisted against him, if he said nothing, he would get crucified and say its sour grapes, he should have said something, if he says something you dont like or agree with - suddenly people say he shouldnt have his own opinion and shouldnt have said anything.
If JP answered a question with 'no comment' - he's classy.
If MP answered a question with 'no comment' - he's a classless asshole
Different rules for different people methinks!

People have typed pages and pages of views and opinions i agree with and disagree with and thats cool, you yourself have probably given your view on the album, i know i have, so who are you to say that we can say anything we want but MP should not say anything? Because if you ignore all the bullshit like being a founder member and a millionaire rockstar, at the end of the day he is still also just a fan of music.

There are no different rules. The reason people treat JP and MP different is because JP gives boring, straightforward answers where he never raises his tone or puts a vicious spin on anything while MP chooses to use the more emotional, passive-aggressive approach. It's the "Huh? What did I do? Wow you people read into things way too much" attitude from MP every time he gets called out for pretty obviously making subtle jabs that annoys people.

[deadtotheworld]

Mebert78 - Dave Mustaine has slagged Metallica off should I stop listening to Megadeth? James Hetfield has slagged off Axl Rose should I not give Master of Puppets another spin because I like GnR? Your logic of not listening to a band because of a view of a member is rediculous! If you did that with every band you would not listen to anything! Even a pathetic view doesnt make him a bad drummer and shouldnt influence what you listen to or like and dislike, thats pathetic.

[johncal]

Keep in mind in my Arrich comment I used the "IF" statement as an "excuse" to imply that I meant nothing bad, although we all know it's meant to be a snotty comment. Maybe Arrich can see the Portnoy statement with clearer vision from the example.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Mebert78 - Dave Mustaine has slagged Metallica off should I stop listening to Megadeth? James Hetfield has slagged off Axl Rose should I not give Master of Puppets another spin because I like GnR? Your logic of not listening to a band because of a view of a member is rediculous! If you did that with every band you would not listen to anything! Even a pathetic view doesnt make him a bad drummer and shouldnt influence what you listen to or like and dislike, thats pathetic.

use the quote function, bro.

Also, Portnoy ain't stupid, he knows comments like those are going to sparkle discussion. That man wants to have people talking about him. What happened in that ADTOE thread in MP.com? It was getting lots of praise (excluding that "I'm with you MP! I can't wait for THE MOB to release that rocking modern metal album!" folk) until Thiago first posted his analysis, and people were like "oh, cool!" When MP posted, the place went nuts. Both Thiago and Portnoy are responsible for such happenings.

Now, it's just a matter of time befrore Portnoy says "everything I say gets misinterpreted by Blabbermouth...!" when it was kinda obvious a comment like that one was destined to sparkle tension.

[j]

Peter Griffin, sir - MP could fart and people would say it was a personal attack on DT. If he says something nice it would be twisted against him, if he said nothing, he would get crucified and say its sour grapes, he should have said something, if he says something you dont like or agree with - suddenly people say he shouldnt have his own opinion and shouldnt have said anything.
If JP answered a question with 'no comment' - he's classy.
If MP answered a question with 'no comment' - he's a classless asshole
Different rules for different people methinks!

The rules are the same.  The difference is, Portnoy would say "no comment...I'd rather not say anything negative" or something of the sort to imply what he wants to while still giving him plausible deniability.  Petrucci would just say "no comment," or God forbid, make a genuinely positive comment!  Imagine that!

And please cite ONE example where Portnoy has said something nice and it has been "twisted against him."  Blows my mind how blatantly vacuous and in denial some people are being with regard to the things Portnoy CONTINUES to say and do.

-J

[Super Dude]

Keep in mind in my Arrich comment I used the "IF" statement as an "excuse" to imply that I meant nothing bad, although we all know it's meant to be a snotty comment. Maybe Arrich can see the Portnoy statement with clearer vision from the example.

You're not gonna last very long here.  Think before you type.

[Enc3f4L0]

So now the issue is that I posted my article early?
Why do I have the feeling some people just DON'T want to understand a thing I say and are holding on to whatever they can to remain pissed off?

When I made the note I did it on my personal profile on facebook. The album was all over Youtube already and I KNOW most die-hard DT fans heard the leak, so please spare me the righteous talk on the matter. We're in 2011, album leaks have been around for awhile. I'm not more of a pirate than you because I wrote my thoughts on a facebook note, it's just hypocritical to try to pin that shit on me.

When I pasted the note on MP.com the album was already being OFFICIALLY streamed by Roadrunner, which makes it legally available for ANYONE who wants to hear it.
I posted it 3 times (well, actually 2, cuz on the 2nd time I just decided to paste the text directly, so I posted right after... should've edited my 2nd post replacing the link I guess) because I wanted to start a discussion about it with those people who are interested in breaking down music. There is a single "SANCTIONED" thread, so I couldn't make a new one, and some people were hinting they were finding similarities and asking if anyone else was. This motivated me to repost my link cuz I thought something might've kept my post from being shown (I know I'm having issues with posts not showing up on MP.com).

Again, I posted it there AFTER THE STREAM, and with NO INTENTION of luring our MIKE PORTNOY (as implied by yet another fan - and I'm the one with the conspiracy theories?). When I concluded all the similarities between the albums I thought to myself "MP must be one of the 1st to hear this, I'm sure he'd agree with my findings", but I never thought he would actually read my note (it was lost in almost 100 pages on that thread). Even in the unlikely event he did read it, I would've bet my ass he wouldn't comment on it (I'm glad I didn't make that bet), after all that's happened, how anything he says turns into shitstorm, and specially because it would've been his 1st manifestation of having heard the album, and it would be interpreted as... well, as it has been.

If you still wanna hold on to reasons to make me your big bad wolf, then there's nothing I can do about it. I just about covered every aspect I could think of to clarify this and steer the discussion in the right direction.

[johncal]

Keep in mind in my Arrich comment I used the "IF" statement as an "excuse" to imply that I meant nothing bad, although we all know it's meant to be a snotty comment. Maybe Arrich can see the Portnoy statement with clearer vision from the example.

You're not gonna last very long here.  Think before you type.

I did. If you can't see that it's meant to show him something objectively, then you're missing my point, you didn't read the earlier post, or I did a bad job of explaining it. If I did a bad job explaining it, I apologize. I harbor no ill will against anybody here.

[darkshade]

 

[chrisbDTM]

  at all of this

also not all 'die-hard DT fans' listen to leaked material

[Moonchild]

MP is extremely childish and the Dave Mustaine of the internets.

@ Thiago: we all know you play covers 1 hour after the song is released (my opinion of that is highly negative).. but making reviews without even being an "official journalist" is wrong.

wut

That's like saying only people who play instruments can critique another person's playing. Also, what's negative about the guys playing DT covers? Excluding your extreme exaggeration of the time frame of course.

Just my two cents.. I don't think people should make a living through other peoples imagination and work, that's why I don't like cover bands or any kind of covers that don't add anything new or unique. It has become a cliché.
I didn't say that people who play instruments can critique others but what I meant is that Thiago didn't buy the album and reviewed it before it's release.. and his review was like reading THE truth and self promotion casting his "musical" atributes. Well.. and from what I read he is a complete post whore trying to get everyone's undivided attention. He surely did it.

[johncal]

So now the issue is that I posted my article early?
Why do I have the feeling some people just DON'T want to understand a thing I say and are holding on to whatever they can to remain pissed off?

When I made the note I did it on my personal profile on facebook. The album was all over Youtube already and I KNOW most die-hard DT fans heard the leak, so please spare me the righteous talk on the matter. We're in 2011, album leaks have been around for awhile. I'm not more of a pirate than you because I wrote my thoughts on a facebook note, it's just hypocritical to try to pin that shit on me.

When I pasted the note on MP.com the album was already being OFFICIALLY streamed by Roadrunner, which makes it legally available for ANYONE who wants to hear it.
I posted it 3 times (well, actually 2, cuz on the 2nd time I just decided to paste the text directly, so I posted right after... should've edited my 2nd post replacing the link I guess) because I wanted to start a discussion about it with those people who are interested in breaking down music. There is a single "SANCTIONED" thread, so I couldn't make a new one, and some people were hinting they were finding similarities and asking if anyone else was. This motivated me to repost my link cuz I thought something might've kept my post from being shown (I know I'm having issues with posts not showing up on MP.com).

Again, I posted it there AFTER THE STREAM, and with NO INTENTION of luring our MIKE PORTNOY (as implied by yet another fan - and I'm the one with the conspiracy theories?). When I concluded all the similarities between the albums I thought to myself "MP must be one of the 1st to hear this, I'm sure he'd agree with my findings", but I never thought he would actually read my note (it was lost in almost 100 pages on that thread). Even in the unlikely event he did read it, I would've bet my ass he wouldn't comment on it (I'm glad I didn't make that bet), after all that's happened, how anything he says turns into shitstorm, and specially because it would've been his 1st manifestation of having heard the album, and it would be interpreted as... well, as it has been.

If you still wanna hold on to reasons to make me your big bad wolf, then there's nothing I can do about it. I just about covered every aspect I could think of to clarify this and steer the discussion in the right direction.

I think a lot of people here understand what you're saying but just don't agree with it. Personally, I think you read way too much into the whole similarity thing. You can push your credentials to show why you're "right" but I just don't see it. Not that I'm refusing to, i just don't see it. It's not there, not to me anyways. As to all the posts, I'm sure you were excited about what you thought you found (or did find) and wanted to share it with everybody which is OK. Hey maybe you're right and maybe not. I think I definitely would have waited a bit for it though. As far as Portnoys response goes, you can't control him. Your article was just his excuse to be Portnoy. I do think the more you try to defend your position though, the worse it gets. One thing I've learned here you can never PROVE anything to anybody. They drag guilty people out of court and they're still think they're innocent and right. And you think you can convince people on a forum? Lot's of luck man.

[orcus116]

The only paragraph that really bothered me was the who accusatory "I have no idea why Dream Theater did this", especially considering there is no proof that any of this over analysis is even true. It just lends to an condescending "caught them red handed but they pulled it off" tone that just seems off.

[ReaPsTA]

Why is it over-analysis?

[orcus116]

You don't think a section by section comparison to two songs that don't sound even remotely alike is overkill? Really? The music on both albums are so drastically different that the only way they're even close is if you really want to hear parts of songs in another song.

[reneranucci]

You don't think a section by section comparison to two songs that don't sound even remotely alike is overkill? Really? The music on both albums are so drastically different that the only way they're even close is if you really want to hear parts of songs in another song.

Aren't you the guy who insisted that the songs on SC and BC&SL had the same structure, even though they don't?

[orcus116]

No. I said the music is stylistically the same, though.

[ResultsMayVary]

The post comes off as a blatant bash at DT. More 'lolMP' moments to enjoy, apparently.

[Orthogonal]

You don't think a section by section comparison to two songs that don't sound even remotely alike is overkill? Really? The music on both albums are so drastically different that the only way they're even close is if you really want to hear parts of songs in another song.

I think you still don't understand what a song structure is. It's like 2 houses built to the same blue print, but the finishing work and paint jobs are entirely different. They would feel very different being inside, but they are structurally the same. That is all he is saying. He presents a lot of good evidence for it. You can agree or disagree, but don't say that it doesn't exist because they don't sound alike.

[Millais]

The album was all over Youtube already and I KNOW most die-hard DT fans heard the leak, so please spare me the righteous talk on the matter.

"Die-hard" fans respect the band and wait until the release date.

[TheKillingHand]

The album was all over Youtube already and I KNOW most die-hard DT fans heard the leak, so please spare me the righteous talk on the matter.

"Die-hard" fans respect the band and wait until the release date.

Yeah I always thought it was the casual fans that listen to leaks and die-hards hold out for the CD

[ResultsMayVary]

-snip-

Step down from the podium. You're not better than everyone else.

[johncal]

The album was all over Youtube already and I KNOW most die-hard DT fans heard the leak, so please spare me the righteous talk on the matter.

"Die-hard" fans respect the band and wait until the release date.

And some die-hard fans still download the leak since they already have the album on order so they feel it's OK to do so. I've heard several guys mention that and I don't question thir fan loyalty. Then again some people are waiting either for really good honest reasons, or self righteousness. None of us are perfect.

[KevShmev]

As for apparently being an MP-defender, I'm not.

Sure.  If I didn't know any better, I'd swear you were his lawyer.

So basically, people who spend a lot of time speculating negative possibilities are now pissed that MP is doing the same thing?

Kind of like how you constantly call out people who speculate negative possibilities, but are now seemingly giving Portnoy a free pass for his, right?

-snip-

Step down from the podium. You're not better than everyone else.

Amen to that. 

[Resonate]

So now the issue is that I posted my article early?
Why do I have the feeling some people just DON'T want to understand a thing I say and are holding on to whatever they can to remain pissed off?

When I made the note I did it on my personal profile on facebook. The album was all over Youtube already and I KNOW most die-hard DT fans heard the leak, so please spare me the righteous talk on the matter. We're in 2011, album leaks have been around for awhile. I'm not more of a pirate than you because I wrote my thoughts on a facebook note, it's just hypocritical to try to pin that shit on me.

Well, as I was one of the people who questioned your timing, I'll respond.  You may feel it's hypocritical to bring up that issue, but on this forum, MP's forum, JP's forum, JLB's forum, etc, the moderators of each requested people not to post their opinions on the leak out of respect for the band.   I'm sure a lot people listened to the leak, but if they posted about it on any of those forums, they were either banned from the forum and or their remarks were removed.

You posted about it on your personal Facebook, and you weren't under a moderators control. And you weren't the only person to do so.  But what about self-moderation?   I wondered the same thing about everybody else on Facebook posting publicly about the leak, by the way.   Like with everyone else whom I read talking about the leak on FB, I just don't get downloading a band's music in that manner and then spreading info about it. 

Mike Mangini found out about the leak on FB when people started congratulating him on his wall about the album.  When he asked people how they got the album and they explained how they downloaded it, he was blown away by that....and not in a good way.  He was very gracious about it, but could not hide his initial disappointment. So if you think the band doesn't get upset about that kind of thing, yeah, they do. Just because it's "the reality" doesn't make it cool.

You can come back with another "your hypocritical" response, and we'll just have to agree to disagree about your timing.  You think it's fine.  I don't. 

[Cable]

The album was all over Youtube already and I KNOW most die-hard DT fans heard the leak, so please spare me the righteous talk on the matter.

"Die-hard" fans respect the band and wait until the release date.

And some die-hard fans still download the leak since they already have the album on order so they feel it's OK to do so. I've heard several guys mention that and I don't question thir fan loyalty. Then again some people are waiting either for really good honest reasons, or self righteousness. None of us are perfect.

I agree.

It really is not a question of fan loyalty at all. The first two quoted are trying to lump most of the DT fans into this or that categories.

Waiting or not waiting has nothing to do with fandom, but rather the person. The die-hard DT fan who pre-listens will be the one who buys the album still, and the other will be the die hard fan that waits. This is all we can really say.

So personally speaking? I did the "preview" with 6DOIT (first new DT album as a fan), and did not really enjoy my experience once I bought the album. So since, I have listened to what is publicly and officially available, as the band intends. I listen to what is officially available as much or as little as want (usually much,) as in a perfect world, what we want to hear when we want to hear would be on all of our radios or devices.

But when a fan listens to the album or not has nothing to do with the merit of them being a fan, but instead their personal reasons/preferences etc of listening to music.

[reo73]

@Thiago...I completely understand where you are coming from on this and appreciated your post and am sorry you are getting drawn through the flames for it.  Even if you were calling out DT on it, and you weren't, I would be OK with it because this "re-write" is the backbone of the album.  It's an obvious intentional direction DT took with this album, following form charts to the T from a previous album does not occur by happenstance, and for better or worse I am interested to hear someone from DT comment about it.  I can also understand where MP is coming from because I agree that it is a strange (his words) and unique thing for DT to do.

Personally, I am having a difficult time with it when I listen to ADTOE because it's the most prominent thing that jumps out at me and I feel as if it distracts me from hearing the new music as its own compositional piece of music.  In some ways it works but in other ways it doesn't because the new songs are so much more technical than anything off I&W and I feel the technicality is being forced into these forms from almost 20 years ago.

Anyway, hopefully as time goes by we will understand more about it from the DT camp and I will appreciate it more, but right now I see it as distracting and a bit gimmicky.

[ariich]

Keep in mind in my Arrich comment I used the "IF" statement as an "excuse" to imply that I meant nothing bad, although we all know it's meant to be a snotty comment. Maybe Arrich can see the Portnoy statement with clearer vision from the example.

You're not gonna last very long here.  Think before you type.

I did. If you can't see that it's meant to show him something objectively, then you're missing my point, you didn't read the earlier post, or I did a bad job of explaining it. If I did a bad job explaining it, I apologize. I harbor no ill will against anybody here.

I think you may have done a bad job explaining it, because to me it looked like you were saying if I didn't agree with your opinion then I'm an idiot. And attacking mods is generally not a good idea here.

As for apparently being an MP-defender, I'm not.

Sure.  If I didn't know any better, I'd swear you were his lawyer.

Did you even read the rest of that post? I defend people who are being attacked.

So basically, people who spend a lot of time speculating negative possibilities are now pissed that MP is doing the same thing?

Kind of like how you constantly call out people who speculate negative possibilities, but are now seemingly giving Portnoy a free pass for his, right?

I have no problem with speculation as long as it's not unreasonable, and indeed it can lead to interesting discussion. What I have a problem with is treating speculation or assumptions as fact. And no, I'm not giving MP a free pass, I think it was a silly thing to speculate. But, once again, people are acting like he was launching an attack on the band, when he was doing no more than half this forum do all the time.

[KevShmev]

@Thiago...I completely understand where you are coming from on this and appreciated your post and am sorry you are getting drawn through the flames for it.  Even if you were calling out DT on it, and you weren't, I would be OK with it because this "re-write" is the backbone of the album.  It's an obvious intentional direction DT took with this album, following form charts to the T from a previous album does not occur by happenstance, and for better or worse I am interested to hear someone from DT comment about it.  I can also understand where MP is coming from because I agree that it is a strange (his words) and unique thing for DT to do.

Personally, I am having a difficult time with it when I listen to ADTOE because it's the most prominent thing that jumps out at me and I feel as if it distracts me from hearing the new music as its own compositional piece of music.  In some ways it works but in other ways it doesn't because the new songs are so much more technical than anything off I&W and I feel the technicality is being forced into these forms from almost 20 years ago.

Anyway, hopefully as time goes by we will understand more about it from the DT camp and I will appreciate it more, but right now I see it as distracting and a bit gimmicky.

That is too bad, but you have no proof that it was an intentional direction that DT took.  Saying it over and over doesn't make it so.

As for apparently being an MP-defender, I'm not.

Sure.  If I didn't know any better, I'd swear you were his lawyer.

Did you even read the rest of that post? I defend people who are being attacked.

Yes, I read the rest of that post, but the fact that you automatically equate criticizing with attacking is bothersome.  It is possible to criticize someone, especially when it is fair and warranted, without it being an attack.  Sure, a few might go over the line, but by and large, most of us criticize in a very non-attacking manner.

So basically, people who spend a lot of time speculating negative possibilities are now pissed that MP is doing the same thing?

Kind of like how you constantly call out people who speculate negative possibilities, but are now seemingly giving Portnoy a free pass for his, right?

I have no problem with speculation as long as it's not unreasonable, and indeed it can lead to interesting discussion. What I have a problem with is treating speculation or assumptions as fact. And no, I'm not giving MP a free pass, I think it was a silly thing to speculate. But, once again, people are acting like he was launching an attack on the band, when he was doing no more than half this forum do all the time.

No we are not.  We are reacting as if he passively-aggressively was all but questioning the band's motives with a very dubious and uncalled-for theory.  No one said he was launching an attack on the band.  Jeez, Rich, are you always this black and white with everything?

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I never thought I'd see the day when people get more annoyed with Rich than they do with me but... Here it is!

Hang in there Rich!

[FlashCE]

Wow at the replies in here.

The structural similarities are there. The songs don't sound alike, but it's a fact that the structures are similar. But who cares? Many songs have the same structure. The Count of Tuscany is a long song but has a structure that's similar to many much shorter songs.

I don't get why MP is taking a shot at DT with this. It's just ridiculous.

[theseoafs]

Nobody else would be subject to the amount of outrage and upset that MP has been, once again.

Because it's obvious how resentful Mike is to DT going on without him. I don't see how it could only be innocent speculation and nothing more than that.

I know that you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but there was absolutely no reason to throw that "desperately rewriting the past" comment in, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I'm staying out of the thread now though, nothing good ever comes out of these topics. 

Well I don't even know what he meant by that, so can't fully comment. But it definitely comes off as a pretty negative suggestion.

As I see it, MP's comment is indicative of his still being in the "there is no DT without me" mindset. I'm thinking he heard it and went, "well, these guys went back to Images and Words because they knew that's the only way they would be successful, 'cause they can't do anything good and original", or some more indirect form of that. That's what "desperately re-writing the past" probably means.

[ariich]

Yes, I read the rest of that post, but the fact that you automatically equate criticizing with attacking is bothersome.  It is possible to criticize someone, especially when it is fair and warranted, without it being an attack.  Sure, a few might go over the line, but by and large, most of us criticize in a very non-attacking manner.

Except that I don't confuse the two at all, and maybe that's the problem here. There's no way you can possibly think that comments like "MP is officially an idiot now" are intelligent critique. And intelligent critique is fine, as long as people are respectful then they can think whatever they want. I find it odd that you're being so defensive about it - you may be very articulate and respectful with your posts but that doesn't mean that everyone who happens to share your opinion is equally so.

EDIT: Interesting point, theseoafs, it could be something like that. But other comments of his recently would indicate that he is out of the "no DT without me" phase, so it seems a bit weird that he would revert to that mindset.

[KevShmev]

Okay, how many people actually said that?  One?  Maybe two?  When there are 50 replies (for example), focusing on the one or two most negative replies and then acting like that is commonplace seems rather silly to me.  I think most of us are pretty good at expressing ourselves in a pretty respectful way (here at DTF, as opposed to the over the top nature of a place like 5/8 for example), so talking in general terms about how Portnoy is being attacked and being called an idiot doesn't do anything but drive the conversation in a direction it really doesn't need to go.  Anyone who would respond with a comment like, "Mike Portnoy is an idiot now," isn't worth replying to.

[theseoafs]

EDIT: Interesting point, theseoafs, it could be something like that. But other comments of his recently would indicate that he is out of the "no DT without me" phase, so it seems a bit weird that he would revert to that mindset.

I don't know if it's ever been confirmed that he fell out of that phase. I agree that he's been a bit more mature about his handling DT-related questions lately, but I don't know if that means he changed. From what (little) information we know about his departure, it seems that he wouldn't have left the band if he didn't legitimately believe the band could not go on without him, and I see no reason why he wouldn't still believe that, even if he is less vocal/bitter now. (Could be wrong. This is extreme speculation right here.)

The other possibility (which I endorsed on the first page of this thread and which I don't find too likely anymore) is that he believes DT wanted to rewrite Images and Words not to feature MP, but this makes him out to be really insecure and I don't really buy that.