Did Dream Theater fans turn their back on Mike Portnoy?

[Slain]

I'm not saying he's perfect, but I've seen tweets along the line of '@MikePortnoy the new DT album rocks, they did it without you. Thanks for leaving cause you suck.' And nobody deserves to have shit like that said to them.

I think people ignore just how much shit like this he's had to put up with since the split. Whether or not people think he "deserves it" is irrelevant.
MP's comment about fans turning their back on him is 100% justified, and this thread is further proof of it, just like the other 20 threads we've had in the past week that have devolved into the exact same thing. MP has made mistakes in how he's handled himself, no doubt. And it was his own choice for leaving DT, so that is on him. But if any person here got the same amount of hate thrown their way as MP has for his mistakes, I'd like to see how well they handle it.

I don't think he deserves it either, but he continues to make these mistakes, whether it's passive aggressive comments towards the band, or "liking" anti-DT posts on facebook, whatever. I probably wouldn't be able to handle something like this, but there is a point where you just have to let things go, and leave it alone.

I'll continue to support him because I enjoy what he's done with DT (I went to one of the AM concerts in Virginia, and it was a lot of fun) but he's making it more and more difficult for me to. Being in any position of fame is going to come with lots of criticism, both fair and unfair, and there are plenty of actors, directors, writers, and other musicians that deal with seeing worse things posted on the internet.

[Metabog]

There's a lot of hate if you look on places where negative opinions aren't censored.

Also, if anyone's ever heard of a dude by the name of John Romero, I think almost the same thing happened with both of them. Inability to understand that fans don't have his exact opinions, and that they won't actually follow him blindly whatever or wherever he goes. There was a lot of hate for Romero around 2000-2001, and he never quite bounced back into the spotlight, but he's still around.

[ReaPsTA]

I think people ignore just how much shit like this he's had to put up with since the split. Whether or not people think he "deserves it" is irrelevant.
MP's comment about fans turning their back on him is 100% justified, and this thread is further proof of it, just like the other 20 threads we've had in the past week that have devolved into the exact same thing. MP has made mistakes in how he's handled himself, no doubt. And it was his own choice for leaving DT, so that is on him. But if any person here got the same amount of hate thrown their way as MP has for his mistakes, I'd like to see how well they handle it.

It seems to me from reading this that you have more context for understanding this than most people.  If that's true, than obviously I can't say anything about it.  I'll assume it's valid.

But, the thing I can't get my mind off of is that he got the bad will going.  He never needed to say or imply a single negative thing about DT in the press.  I think, more than anything else, that's what has people upset.

[rumborak]

- He seems to be implying that he expected DT fans to stick with him and that we're the ones doing wrong by him for not getting into his current output.

That sort of reasoning is a mainstay with him. He never sees himself having made the mistake, unless it is a glorious one (read: the AA suite) where however it is elevated to such heights that it once again is a form of self-glorification.

Blaming the fans is cheap. The argument can work with one fan, or two, but once the number goes into the thousands, it is rather unlikely that all these thousands suddenly turned evil. People judged him by his post-DT output, simple as that.

rumborak

[Lowdz]

Just wrote a great long diatribe about my response to this but thought better of it and deleted it all.

MP should take a leaf out of JP's way of doing things. He's been asked the same questions about the split as MP and he just gives the boring stock answers. No fuel to the flames and stays classy throughout. Boring to read certainly, but diplomacy is always best in these circumstances. The proof is in what happens when you react like MP- it becomes devisive and nasty and encourages others to take sides, splitting your fanbase and cutting potential sales.

[hefdaddy42]

MP should take a leaf out of JP's way of doing things.

I don't care about right or wrong anymore, but this would certainly make modding a forum easier.

[ariich]

He sure seems to think so.

"It has been a tough year for me watching DREAM THEATER fans turning their backs on me, which is unfortunate, because I have been the most fan-oriented artist you'll ever meet. And during my time with DREAM THEATER, everything I did was for the fans. So it is sad when I see someone turning his back on me."



Source: https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=162788

You only took a snippet that makes it sound worse than it actually was. Now THAT is worth a or three.

Metal Kaoz: Have you been facing "haters" along this process?

Portnoy: Absolutely, I have. It has been a tough year for me watching DREAM THEATER fans turning their backs on me, which is unfortunate, because I have been the most fan-oriented artist you'll ever meet. And during my time with DREAM THEATER, everything I did was for the fans. So it is sad when I see someone turning his back on me. But, again, there is a big number of fans who have been very supportive and for those people I am so eternally grateful and I will continue trying to make them proud fans.

I'd say that sums it up pretty well.

[ariich]

I've edited the OP to include the full quote.

But seriously, this assault on MP is getting a bit ridiculous.

[Mladen]

I think it is more accurate to say that Mike Portnoy turned Dream Theater fans' backs on Mike Portnoy.

But I think it is more accurate to say that Dream Theater fans are more focused on Dream Theater than on Mike Portnoy now because Mike Portnoy is no longer in Dream Theater.

Well done, sir. It's very simple.

[Knguro]

1. I'll say that he OP is really not a big deal, he even emphasize that not everybody turn their backs on him.

2. He is a great musician no fucking doubt about it! He has developed a unique sound and style.

3. Many of us are really thankful for everything he did. And that brings to my 4th point.

4. EVERY single action comes with a reaction. That is a fact, a simple life fact! He did a lot of good things for the fans over the past 25 years, and yes, the REACTION all over was the same, good. Now days he has done a lot of negative stuff, therefore the REACTION will be always negative.

5.  Conclusion he must change the way he ACTS in order to change the REACTION.

6. IMO.

[Liberation]

He has done some big mistakes which also made him lose a bit in my eyes, but the shit some people are doing is just extremely immature and is nothing else than straightforward brainless bashing.

[Super Dude]

I think people ignore just how much shit like this he's had to put up with since the split. Whether or not people think he "deserves it" is irrelevant.
MP's comment about fans turning their back on him is 100% justified, and this thread is further proof of it, just like the other 20 threads we've had in the past week that have devolved into the exact same thing. MP has made mistakes in how he's handled himself, no doubt. And it was his own choice for leaving DT, so that is on him. But if any person here got the same amount of hate thrown their way as MP has for his mistakes, I'd like to see how well they handle it.

It seems to me from reading this that you have more context for understanding this than most people.  If that's true, than obviously I can't say anything about it.  I'll assume it's valid.

But, the thing I can't get my mind off of is that he got the bad will going.  He never needed to say or imply a single negative thing about DT in the press.  I think, more than anything else, that's what has people upset.

I'm pretty much with Reap on this one.  At the colossal amounts of hate that MP is getting, it is undeserved.  That said he did sorta bring it upon himself when he started all the mud slinging.  Not that I think it's right or that he deserves it (as I've already said), but he can't expect comments like that to jive well with DT fans.

[Perpetual Change]

MP's comment about fans turning their back on him is 100% justified, and this thread is further proof of it, just like the other 20 threads we've had in the past week that have devolved into the exact same thing...

It's not justified at all and this is why: because this comment is a text-book example of why people get annoyed with Mike Portnoy to begin with. It's not about whether he's wrong or right; whether the shit he's getting is deserved or not. It's about the fact that regardless of the situation, Mike is always the first person reminding you that you should be on his side, that he's being wrong or victimized in some unfair way.  Or, on the flipside, that you should be thrilled because he's going all-out for you. Doesn't anyone else see the pattern here? People get sick of that, especially in this case (like in Never Enough) when they're made the target.  

The fact is, whether Mike's being shortchanged by fans, DT, or anyone else is pretty inconsequential because it's always annoying when people constantly remind you that you should take their side in things. Think about it-- when is the last time you've genuinely felt sorry for someone who flat out told you, "you know, you should feel sorry for me!"?

And, for what it's worth, "my old fans have turned their back on me" is just about the most lame and diva-like thing a rock-star can say in an interview. Mike's obviously in a really negative place in his life right now, so I hope he pulls himself out soon because I don't like this new self-absorbed and victimized Mike Portnoy very much at all.

[BlobVanDam]

It's not justified at all and this is why: because this comment is a text-book example of why people get annoyed with Mike Portnoy to begin with. It's not about whether he's wrong or right; whether the shit he's getting is deserved or not. It's about the fact that regardless of the situation, Mike is always the first person reminding you that you should be on his side, that he's being wrong or victimized in some unfair way.  Or, on the flipside, that you should be thrilled because he's going all-out for you. Doesn't anyone else see the pattern here? People get sick of that, especially in this case (like in Never Enough) when they're made the target. 

The fact is, whether Mike's being shortchanged by fans, DT, or anyone else is pretty inconsequential because it's always annoying when people constantly remind you that you should take their side in things. Think about it-- when is the last time you've genuinely felt sorry for someone who flat out told you, "you know, you should feel sorry for me!"?

And, for what it's worth, "my old fans have turned their back on me" is just about the most lame and diva-like thing a rock-star can say in an interview. Mike's obviously in a really negative place in his life right now, so I hope he pulls himself out soon because I don't like this new self-absorbed and victimized Mike Portnoy very much at all.

This is what I'm talking about though. It doesn't matter who started it, because attitudes like this are perpetuating his behaviour as much as his is perpetuating yours. I won't argue that he's handled himself perfectly, because I agree with some of what you're saying to a degree.
The fact is a lot of fans have turned their backs on him. For most people here it's because of his attitude, and it's descended and escalated to occasionally unreasonable levels thanks to threads exactly like this (and I'm not accusing you or anyone in particular of this). And there are plenty of people on Facebook and Twitter who have just been bitter fanboys whining about the split and given MP undeserved crap over this from day 1 before MP put a foot wrong (and I'm definitely not accusing anyone here of that one).

I'm not sticking up for Portnoy here, or saying anyone here is wrong to feel the way they do. But when you see it from MP's POV, he's receiving a lot more than he deserves, even taking into account his many missteps. Some people are letting their opinion of MP colour their interpretation of MP's actions far more than they'd like to think. I just think people should try to remain more objective and neutral.

And in this particular case, I have no issue at all with MP's comments here. He didn't make any claims about every DT fan hating him. He was referring to some fans hating him, and that is clearly the case. He also pointed out that many fans have stuck with him. This is also true. I don't see any issue here. Move along, people.

[Perpetual Change]

This is what I'm talking about though. It doesn't matter who started it, because attitudes like this are perpetuating his behaviour as much as his is perpetuating yours. I won't argue that he's handled himself perfectly, because I agree with some of what you're saying to a degree.

I'm not sure what "my behavior" is supposed to mean 

But I get what your saying overall. The key difference is for me is that the rock-star isn't supposed to be the one that's pitting fans against each other or even himself against fans. That's just terrible showmanship and I can't fathom how anyone's supposed to be entertained for made excited about a new album or tour by it.

...But I guess the "with me or against me" attitude always kinda been part of the gig for MP fans. Come to think of it, there are multiple examples from just DT's career alone I can point to where fans were led to believe that boogeymen producers, record labels, ex-members, members of other bands, online "fans" and the like were somehow being unfair toward the Dream Theater guys. In the end, you've gotta wonder if that's why MP's fans tend to be as zealous as they are, because he's always testing their loyalty one way or another. Having your loyalty tested and being asked to take sides is like central to being a die-hard MP fan...

/off-topic musings

[rumborak]

In the end, it doesn't matter who is at fault or what not. We are his life blood, the consumers of his product, and many of us currently don't like his product. And it doesn't matter whether we arrived at this conclusion because we had prejudices we wanted to see confirmed, or whether he really made a lot of unfortunate statements. If he wants his product to get bought more, he needs to work on the image of it. Nobody bought a Mac back in the day because Steve Jobs whined about how evil and stupid PCs are. They bought it because he pitched his product well.

rumborak

[Jamesman42]

But when you see it from MP's POV, he's receiving a lot more than he deserves, even taking into account his many missteps.

Yes, he is getting more than he deserves. But online with the tools of anonymity and license to post whatever you want, people will take it too far just to troll people. Those people would do that to any situation. I admit that I have occasionally gone too far but I don't do it where he can see. The one time I put a comment where he could actually see, it was on his FB page and it was very respectable.

But disregarding how much he deserves, his POV seems somewhat out of whack regardless. I agree with PC that he keeps bringing up that we have to take sides (or implying it). And that attitude perpetuates his responses that make a lot of us go "WTF MP?!" It's a vicious cycle for him, because he can't stop with the negativity, but then the comments keep coming at him and he wonders why and gets upset about. I feel bad for the guy, I know he is going through a lot internally (well, very little doubt that he isn't). But he is in a business where tons of people are watching his moves, knowing him ONLY from his public messages. I think he was spoiled in DT because his "haters" were few and far between. Now he doesn't know how to deal with the fans because the game has changed, and the atmosphere is entirely different.

[BlobVanDam]

But when you see it from MP's POV, he's receiving a lot more than he deserves, even taking into account his many missteps.

Yes, he is getting more than he deserves. But online with the tools of anonymity and license to post whatever you want, people will take it too far just to troll people. Those people would do that to any situation. I admit that I have occasionally gone too far but I don't do it where he can see. The one time I put a comment where he could actually see, it was on his FB page and it was very respectable.

But disregarding how much he deserves, his POV seems somewhat out of whack regardless. I agree with PC that he keeps bringing up that we have to take sides (or implying it). And that attitude perpetuates his responses that make a lot of us go "WTF MP?!" It's a vicious cycle for him, because he can't stop with the negativity, but then the comments keep coming at him and he wonders why and gets upset about. I feel bad for the guy, I know he is going through a lot internally (well, very little doubt that he isn't). But he is in a business where tons of people are watching his moves, knowing him ONLY from his public messages. I think he was spoiled in DT because his "haters" were few and far between. Now he doesn't know how to deal with the fans because the game has changed, and the atmosphere is entirely different.

Yes. And the part that frustrates me is that neither side is going to stop it. With MP's personality, I can't see him stopping while people are still dumping shit on him. And people here aren't going to stop dumping shit on him until he stops, which isn't going to happen either. How does that end?
I'm not taking sides, because quite frankly I think both sides are as bad as each other.
Obviously the scrutiny is placed more on MP because he's supposed to know better, or at least know that he doesn't know better and let someone else handle it. Fair enough. But it would drive me psychosane too. Just sayin'.

[Perpetual Change]

Yes. And the part that frustrates me is that neither side is going to stop it.

Yeah, but going back to what rumby was saying, it's not really the job of the fans to stop it. At the end of the day, Mike's the professional and we're just the peons who will choose whether or not to support Mike's future endeavors. In DT, fostering an "Us vs. Them" relationship with both fans and other professionals was advantageous because the product was actually a good one and it made the fans that were there all the more zealous. Now? Not so much.

[rumborak]

That's all this really comes down to. Whether or not the bickering stops all depends on whether he will be able to create momentum with his musical output again. Every time things get stagnant (and they are right now for MP, despite AM), criticism and in-fighting starts. MP's positivism about AM and the other stuff is a bit put on, and people perceive that. And he's not a good PR guy enough to hide it in his interviews.

rumborak

[BlobVanDam]

Yes. And the part that frustrates me is that neither side is going to stop it.

Yeah, but going back to what rumby was saying, it's not really the job of the fans to stop it. At the end of the day, Mike's the professional and we're just the peons who will choose whether or not to support Mike's future endeavors. In DT, fostering an "Us vs. Them" relationship with both fans and other professionals was advantageous because the product was actually a good one and it made the fans that were there all the more zealous. Now? Not so much.

I just don't like the double standard, as true as it is. I'm not saying MP has the right to act the way he has, because he doesn't, but I think fans should attempt to set an example instead of acting in kind. It's just too hard a cycle to break. I know this myself, being the forum's "MP" plenty in the past.

[Liberation]

Since the amount of conspiracy theories about MP sometimes reached a truly amazing size, I don't know how exactly _he_ is supposed to stop it as he's going to be evil and terrible no matter what (if he says "sorry for my behaviour the past year, I made some mistakes" it's going to be "OMG HE'S GLORIFYING HIMSELF AGAIN". I bet on it.). It's the problem of the assholes who fuel the whole hate campaign against him and often go unpunished. They're the ones it's all up to.

[rumborak]

There is a difference between is and ought. MP needs to deal with the is, not the ought. Who cares if so many (former) fans of his are spineless backstabbers? They were so before too, when they were fans of DT.  He needs to work with the fans he has, not the fans he would like to have.

rumborak

[Jamesman42]

How does that end?

If he wants it to end, it's gotta be on his end to break the cycle. The fans are the ones who form the opinions about MP. MP can form opinions about us fans all day, but what does that do? We are not affected by his opinions of us (and if we are, it's nothing significant). But our opinions of him do help feed into his products he delivers and how much we will care about his current doings.

[Jaq]

I haven't turned on him in the least, but I will admit there are times when Mike says or does something where I think to myself "you don't stoop to conquer." Interviewers are, naturally, going to ask him questions concerning Dream Theater, and eventually he's going to have to simply say "I'm no longer in Dream Theater, I've moved on in my life." People are going to keep thinking the worst of him regardless of what he says, because that's how some people are, but if Mike would take a diplomatic approach to things, he'd give people a lot less fuel to the fire. The problem is that, now, most of what he says either comes off as Mike going "oh, poor pitiful me" or can be interpreted as such, and until that stops, he's going to keep taking it on the chin.

And nothing he says NOW can change that he is the one who left Dream Theater after issuing demands, then tried to run back to them when he realized he'd made a mistake and they replaced him. A lot of people aren't ever going to accept him pulling that stunt. But the simple fact is, everyone needs to move on. Dream Theater certainly did. MP needs to as well.

[zipporaid]

Actually I probably turned my back on him when he copied a Muse song,
and all the other blatant influences that obviously came from him.  To vent a little,
I really haven't liked MP's "vision" for the band for the last bunch of albums -

and honestly I think the question for the thread should be "Did MP turn his back
on the fans and DT", and I would have to say yes he did.  Of course he
had his reasons, the "wives" weren't doing it for him anymore, etc...
So good for him, as long as he's happy.

I'll try out anything he does in the future, but honestly MM's attitude and
talent have really helped me look past the whole MP/DT thing at this point,
probably more than anything MP did.  Was the split too public, probably -
as a7x stated - but It really hasn't made me turn away from MP, cause
nothing he's done since the split surprised me AT ALL.

[Knguro]

Well watching at twitter you can easily find pretty stupid shit like this:

"Official: Dream Theater is gone with @MikePortnoy departure,I can't find any power/balls on A Dramatic Turn of Events album,it's so boring!!"

"Hey @MikePortnoy is it "Dream Theater" or "James Theater" ? well either way doesn't have BALLS !!"

"@MikePortnoy I can guess ...I m listening to new DT album and it doesn't sound DT anymore .... "

So basically stupid people is everywhere is a matter of a stand of point.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

It appears that way... until you read the whole quote.

Have you been facing 'haters' along this process?

Absolutely I have. It has been a tough year for me watching DREAM THEATER fans turning their backs on me, which is unfortunate because I have been the most fan-oriented artist you'll ever meet. And during my time with DREAM THEATER, everything I did was for the fans. So, it is sad when I see someone turning his back on me. But again, there is a big number of fans who have been very supportive and for those people I am so eternally grateful and I will continue trying to make them proud fans.


He's exactly right, some people are real jerks to him, I've seen it. Most seem to be accepting of what he wants.

People are jerks on the internet. People throughout the years have been real jerks to James LaBrie, and do you see him complaining?  Portnoy's problem is that he reads everything that's said about him on the internet and takes it very personally.

[millahh]

Boiling all of this down, MP behaves in divisive and polarizing ways...and that cuts both ways.  The folks who are die-hard fans of MP are extremely loyal (to the point of taking everything he said as gospel and turning their backs on DT), but the folks who don't like the behavior are really turned off by it, and are driven away by it (and some are very vocal about that, as well).

For better and worse, MP doesn't do anything halfway.  He never has, and it doesn't look like that will stop anytime soon.

I do wish he cared less about what anonymous fans think, though...investing that much in other peoples' opinions of you is not healthy, and never leads anywhere good.

[rumborak]

I also don't buy the argument that there was this army of haters out there that were just waiting for him to make a bad move. I am certainly somebody who's vocally critical of MP usually, but even I went into this split with the attitude of "well, DT has been somewhat stagnant lately anyway, so this might be a chance of getting double the amount of good music".

rumborak

[Lowdz]

If you worry about what everyone thinks of you then maybe the internet is not the place to be looking for your validation. People can be pricks and anonymnity makes people bigger pricks. The same idiots pointlessly bashing MP woud probably sucking his ass if they met him. He needs to realise this and let it go.

[Super Dude]

The people who don't like MP aren't going to stop disliking him for any reason, so the best he can do is just shrug and move on.

And basically what said.

If you worry about what everyone thinks of you then maybe the internet is not the place to be looking for your validation. People can be pricks and anonymnity makes people bigger pricks. The same idiots pointlessly bashing MP woud probably sucking his ass if they met him. He needs to realise this and let it go.

And this.

[KevShmev]

Exactly. To this day, I don't know who that song is for.

It's for KevSchmev.

It's not a joke.

um, could you please elaborate?

hef is mostly kidding (I would hope), but I used to be extremely critical of Portnoy on the message boards (which stood out more then, since very few others were, as opposed to now), so being the almost original Mike Portnoy basher (to put it in extreme terms), it is fun to joke that I was someone he had in mind when writing those lyrics.

He sure seems to think so.

"It has been a tough year for me watching DREAM THEATER fans turning their backs on me, which is unfortunate, because I have been the most fan-oriented artist you'll ever meet. And during my time with DREAM THEATER, everything I did was for the fans. So it is sad when I see someone turning his back on me."



Source: https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=162788

You only took a snippet that makes it sound worse than it actually was. Now THAT is worth a or three.

Er, no it didn't, but whatever spins it in the most positive way for you, Mr. Eternal Optimist.

People are jerks on the internet. People throughout the years have been real jerks to James LaBrie, and do you see him complaining?  Portnoy's problem is that he reads everything that's said about him on the internet and takes it very personally.

This is an excellent point.  Prior to a year ago, JLB was BY FAR the DT member who was criticized the most, whether it be for his live performances, or his voice in general, even by a lot of fans who who would admit to liking the band a lot despite not liking his voice.  The fact that JLB has never really gone off about such things is quite a testament to him, quite honestly.

[Jamesman42]

Kev, I gotta side with Ariich. You left out a little bit of the whole paragraph and that changed the context a little bit.

Also, people were criticizing JLB's talents, whereas people now are criticizing MP's actions/statements/online doings. While, at the end of the day, they are all criticisms and can affect someone like any criticism can, there is a difference between the two types. So what if some people don't like JLB's style or live tone, that sort of thing is easier to dismiss than people taking direct shots at you for being you. Not to mention JLB and MP are 2 very different people from what we know.

[zipporaid]

Kev, I gotta side with Ariich. You left out a little bit of the whole paragraph and that changed the context a little bit.

Also, people were criticizing JLB's talents, whereas people now are criticizing MP's actions/statements/online doings. While, at the end of the day, they are all criticisms and can affect someone like any criticism can, there is a difference between the two types. So what if some people don't like JLB's style or live tone, that sort of thing is easier to dismiss than people taking direct shots at you for being you. Not to mention JLB and MP are 2 very different people from what we know.

You can change your attitude, but you can't change your voice.  I think you're doing it wrong.