Update on the supposed legal issues regarding the DT/Portnoy split

[Jamesman42]

^But maybe JP and JR starting writing riffs that they knew MP would approve and backing away from things that would think MP wouldn't approve. I mean, JR said that he is trying things that they wouldn't have otherwise done (like instead of doubling/tripling a riff, doing something different over the riff)

Oh, I'm certain that was the case, just like an actor or visual designer my only submit performances or designs that they feel the director will approve.  My point was, however, that the actual creative process in Dream Theater was most definitely a collaborative effort, and cannot be credited solely to one guy.   Being the director of a creative group is completely different then being the sole creator, and considering that the music in Dream Theater is almost always credited to the band or the four instrumentalists, I highly doubt Mike has any strong basis for claiming "I am the band".

Collaborative yes, but MP's influence on the others was probably very huge, which affects how the others wrote music for DT IMO

[ElliottTamer]

Nickelback is a piece of shit.

Thanks but I'm pretty sure they are a bigger name than Slipknot or Dream Theater... I was amazed when, after seeing On The Backs Of Angels wit 1 million views, I saw a Nickelback video on the Roadrunner page with 30 million. I guess I didn't realise they were still such a big name, probably because I only ever see people posting how terrible they are in the places I look.

Bigger sure, any good?  Hope no one here thinks that...  To each his or her own, but my god, the radio is complete trash today...  

No offense, but considering the conversation..........what does it matter if DTF members think Nickelbacks music is good? They're bigger than DT will ever be, and that's the important part of it.

It's a completely irrelevant statement actually. I personally have nothing against other bands I don't appreciate musically, I just simply have nothing to do with them. If the music doesn't move me, I simply look elsewhere. So they are a bigger band? What does that mean exactly? McDonalds is a bigger food company than most, what does that make them? The best? lol. It's all relative to what your tastes are and what moves you.

Dream Theater is what it is and you either like them your you don't. Same goes with Nickelback. To compare them in this manner with anyone else is kinda pointless. Just turn the volume up, regardless of what you enjoy.

Just for the record, DT is my favourite band, but I also like Nickelback. I wouldn't call them brilliant or anything like that, I just like some of their songs. But this particular discussion is completely off-topic... Someone said that DT should have the upper hand on the negotiations with MP because they were the second greatest name on their label, but then someone else pointed out they were actually third, seeing as Nickelback is a better-selling band. The latter's point had absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Nickelback is a good band...
And by the way, I find Pinga's comment not only off-topic, but also absolutely rude. I don't like a whole lot of mainstream music (such as Lady Gaga or Black Eyed Peas), but I don't think or say such pejorative things about them. That kind of comment can only come out of jealousy (of other's bands prosperity and popularity) or feelings of social isolation because your opinion doesn't match that of the majority of people.

[Perpetual Change]

Maybe I'm being dramatic, but I'm not seeing where the people saying to calm down are coming from.  

Well, "those people" is Rich. And, while nothing makes certain parts of my anatomy happier than him, he's definitely Mister Optimism. Take the whole "Dream Theater police" comment Jordan made earlier this week, for example. A couple months ago,  I could definitely see Rich and the few other really optimistic posters here (mostly mods imo) acting like that idea was preposterous. But now, Jordan said it, so there must be some merit to it.

To be honest, I think we as a fanbase do a pretty good job of coming up with explanations that wind up being close to the truth. I mean, over the last couple years a huge chunk of people have always suspected that Mike's iron-grip on DT was dampening the creativity of the other DT guys. There were always people who thought that was ridiculous but now it's been pretty much confirmed as James and Jordan have just stopped short of plainly saying it in a number of interviews. Likewise, how the people who had serious doubts about MP ever "quitting" DT for a bigger check when he joined A7X? A lot of people thought that was ridiculous, but it almost happened.

So I guess what I'm getting at is, as fans, we're not always right. But we're not always wrong, either. And, from my point of view, "ridiculous speculation" has never really been as ridiculous as some (with a vested interest in making sure shit stays smooth on the forum) make it out to me.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. Just food for thought.

[The Dark Master]

^But maybe JP and JR starting writing riffs that they knew MP would approve and backing away from things that would think MP wouldn't approve. I mean, JR said that he is trying things that they wouldn't have otherwise done (like instead of doubling/tripling a riff, doing something different over the riff)

Oh, I'm certain that was the case, just like an actor or visual designer my only submit performances or designs that they feel the director will approve.  My point was, however, that the actual creative process in Dream Theater was most definitely a collaborative effort, and cannot be credited solely to one guy.   Being the director of a creative group is completely different then being the sole creator, and considering that the music in Dream Theater is almost always credited to the band or the four instrumentalists, I highly doubt Mike has any strong basis for claiming "I am the band".

Collaborative yes, but MP's influence on the others was probably very huge, which affects how the others wrote music for DT IMO

Agreed, but that is still not the same thing as the Tolkki/Strat situation, or Waters/Floyd (for at least the the Wall), or like, say Mustaine/Megadeth or Schaffer/Iced Earth.  Those guys essentially are their respective bands (or were, in the case of Tolkki and Waters).  There is really nothing stopping Mustaine from just calling the next Megadeth album a Dave Mustaine solo record, but if he owns the name, and he's pretty much the sole composer anyways, why not release it as Megedeth?  Tolkki did do a solo album during his time in Stratovarius, but that was because it was stylistically distinct from Strat, so he decided to call it something different.

[Jamesman42]

Well, i wasn't even really thinking about those other bands anyway to be honest

[reo73]

Just chiming in to make sure we have our Floyd facts right here.  Waters started taking control of the creativity of the band around Animals and though Animals was a somewhat team effort in the song writing it was Waters ideas that fueled the album.  The Wall was almost completely Waters with a bit of collaboration from DG and by the time the tour rolled around RW was basically out of the band.  The Final cut was 100% Waters songwriting.  Then the split and the ensuing lawsuit over the name, rights to past music.  Once DG ended up with the rights they recorded AMLOR which was 100% DG songwriting with NM and RW playing on it and touring as PF.  It was not until TDB that we got a true PF collaborative effort minus Waters of course.

This situation could be a bit similar except that DT is not one of the biggest bands in the world and Portnoy is not a musical composer.  I personally don't think Portnoy will end up with anything, even if he penned lyrics becuase once those songs go into the the collective DT bag of performance material and there is a history of them playing them as a collective band I think DT (whoever that remains to be) has the right to play them whenever and wherever.

[dongringo]

As for the MP situation, we know very little, if I were to guess it's over ytse jam records.

Well, if it just about ytse jam records JP wouldn't have mentioned that the DT name/brand belongs to the band. He appeared to have eluded to what it's about. JLB also seemed to go out of his way to mention in a recent greek interview that JP and JR are and have been the main composers in the band and that MP has never been a primary composer. Here's an excerpt and link for the interview for those who haven't seen it:

So coming to Dream Theater, I would like to ask if you deal the same way with the departure of Mike Portnoy from the band.
Yes, of course. But let me make something clear first. The main composers in this band have always been John Petrucci and Jordan Rudess.  These were the main composers . The seeds, the cultivation of the seeds and the development of the songs come from John Petrucci and Jordan Rudess. From their chords, their notes, their riffs.  Because they have the main instruments. And it was always like this. You listen to this album and you say «this is Dream Theater».  Well, of course it is! And this is because the 2 core composers are still in the band. And we should not undermine my and John Myung's contribution, because this time he was involved more as well. I was more involved too. So, it was a more collective involvement, a more united band as we wrote this album. And ultimately, I completely agree with what Rob said. The legacy of these songs is greater than what a single person represents. Absolutely! So I believe that when the fans will sit down and listen the whole album from the beginning till the end they will say «oh God, this is totally Dream Theater».

This might be the reason I characterized this album as a victory. And I won't hide that I had my doubts for the result as well. But how was I tricked to think that musicians like Labrie, Petrucci, Myung and Rudess had something to prove and...
...they couldn't make it? (he laughs, chachacha  Tongue)

Yes. And I can't understand why this doubt existed... How come so many people were tricked into thinking like this?
Yes, yes, I understand. Do you know what happened? Everyone thought that because Mike was the spokesman of the band and he gave most of the interviews, and he handled most things for the band, that Mike was everything for the band. But now they realize that the music comes from the BAND.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=26858.0

[ConstantMotion]

Nickelback is fine. I like some music which is pop, like *gasp* Christina Aguilera and Beyonce! Out the pitchforks now!



As far as this whole Portnoy thing goes, I think he's a great drummer, but an absolute sh*t as a person. This is horrible to do this to the band...but then again, Roger Waters did the same think to Floyd, and they carried on.

Does this mean, though, that the new album is in jeopardy? If so, that sucks, I was looking forward to hearing it.

[The Dark Master]

Just to reiterate, in the original interview in the OP, Petrucci specifically states that the band owns the name, so I really don't think these legal troubles are over name.  More likely, they are over royalties and publishing issues of all the Dream Theater songs written from 1985-2010.   As has been stated in this thread, the music in the band has almost always been credited to the band, or the four instrumentalists.  This basically means that Mike technically wrote part of all those songs, so while he did not write them all by himself, the fact that he contributed to them would give him certain rights to those songs.  If those songs get used on some sort of compilation or re-release down the line, MP may have to be consulted to give the go-head on any such projects.

Another thing to consider is that Mike may want the right to play Dream Theater songs at his side-project concerts, and since he is not part of Dream Theater anymore, nor did he write any of those songs single-handedly, he may need their permission to do so.  He may not technically need it to just play the songs, but if he wants to record and release any of those shows (and we all know he like to record everything he does), featuring any DT material, then would definitely need DT's permission.

And of course there is YtseJam Records..........

[Peter Griffin]

Promptly, we should pause for a sixtieth of an hour, sir; that is not the manner in which it appears.

[DreamTension]

Maybe I'm being dramatic, but I'm not seeing where the people saying to calm down are coming from.  

Well, "those people" is Rich. And, while nothing makes certain parts of my anatomy happier than him, he's definitely Mister Optimism. Take the whole "Dream Theater police" comment Jordan made earlier this week, for example. A couple months ago,  I could definitely see Rich and the few other really optimistic posters here (mostly mods imo) acting like that idea was preposterous. But now, Jordan said it, so there must be some merit to it.

To be honest, I think we as a fanbase do a pretty good job of coming up with explanations that wind up being close to the truth. I mean, over the last couple years a huge chunk of people have always suspected that Mike's iron-grip on DT was dampening the creativity of the other DT guys. There were always people who thought that was ridiculous but now it's been pretty much confirmed as James and Jordan have just stopped short of plainly saying it in a number of interviews. Likewise, how the people who had serious doubts about MP ever "quitting" DT for a bigger check when he joined A7X? A lot of people thought that was ridiculous, but it almost happened.

So I guess what I'm getting at is, as fans, we're not always right. But we're not always wrong, either. And, from my point of view, "ridiculous speculation" has never really been as ridiculous as some (with a vested interest in making sure shit stays smooth on the forum) make it out to me.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. Just food for thought.

I don't have any proof, but I remember hearing an interview with JR on XM Radio a while ago (pretty sure before Portnoy left) where he talked about bringing ideas into the studio but being turned down because it didn't "sound like Dream Theater".  He even used the term Dream Theater police.  I want to say it was about 18 months ago..

[TL]

If this whole legal situation is true, then I've lost all respect for Portnoy.

[Dangerskew]

[Pinga]

Nickelback is a piece of shit.

Thanks but I'm pretty sure they are a bigger name than Slipknot or Dream Theater... I was amazed when, after seeing On The Backs Of Angels wit 1 million views, I saw a Nickelback video on the Roadrunner page with 30 million. I guess I didn't realise they were still such a big name, probably because I only ever see people posting how terrible they are in the places I look.

Bigger sure, any good?  Hope no one here thinks that...  To each his or her own, but my god, the radio is complete trash today...  

No offense, but considering the conversation..........what does it matter if DTF members think Nickelbacks music is good? They're bigger than DT will ever be, and that's the important part of it.

It's a completely irrelevant statement actually. I personally have nothing against other bands I don't appreciate musically, I just simply have nothing to do with them. If the music doesn't move me, I simply look elsewhere. So they are a bigger band? What does that mean exactly? McDonalds is a bigger food company than most, what does that make them? The best? lol. It's all relative to what your tastes are and what moves you.

Dream Theater is what it is and you either like them your you don't. Same goes with Nickelback. To compare them in this manner with anyone else is kinda pointless. Just turn the volume up, regardless of what you enjoy.

Just for the record, DT is my favourite band, but I also like Nickelback. I wouldn't call them brilliant or anything like that, I just like some of their songs. But this particular discussion is completely off-topic... Someone said that DT should have the upper hand on the negotiations with MP because they were the second greatest name on their label, but then someone else pointed out they were actually third, seeing as Nickelback is a better-selling band. The latter's point had absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Nickelback is a good band...
And by the way, I find Pinga's comment not only off-topic, but also absolutely rude. I don't like a whole lot of mainstream music (such as Lady Gaga or Black Eyed Peas), but I don't think or say such pejorative things about them. That kind of comment can only come out of jealousy (of other's bands prosperity and popularity) or feelings of social isolation because your opinion doesn't match that of the majority of people.

I can assure you it has nothing to do with the fact that they're mainstream. I like Lady Gaga, but think Nickelback is crap. I hope that doesn't hurt your feelings. 

[Jirpo]

*img*

[SnakeEyes]

Snake, continued comments like your last will are not acceptable.

Okay, I'm sorry.  I wasn't trying to be offensive.  I really dislike the songs that I said, "suck."  I understand, though.  Please don't hold it against me.  I've been good. 

[The Dark Master]

Incidentally, Samsara and I have been having a similar conversation on anybodylistening.net concerning the copyrights to recorded materials.  Here is something he said that is relevant to the discussion here:

The songwriters have publishing rights on the songs, so if they are released by other bands doing live covers of them for sale, the artist needs to be compensated.

So that basically goes both ways.  If Mike wanted to include DT material on an Adrenaline Mob live CD/DVD, he would need DT's permission, but anytime Dream Theater wants to do a live CD/DVD that contains DT material from 1985-2010, they would need Mike's permission, since he technically co-wrote almost all of those songs.

Between the live recording by either band of past DT songs, royalties, publishing and YtseJam, I can totally see how they have their hands full with legal matters at the moment.

[Pling]

it would explain why there's no songs being played with Portnoy lyrics...

[KevShmev]

I looked up the Rogers/Floyd feud.  The parallels are creepy.

In some ways, yes, but Waters was THE creative force on the majority of Floyd's records during their peak, and Floyd never replaced him with an official member (Guy Pratt played bass live for them in the late 80s and 90s, but was never an official member), unlike DT, who has made Mike Mangini an official member of the band. 

I looked up the Rogers/Floyd feud.  The parallels are creepy.

And hasn't MP always said that he philosophically sided with Waters?

Yes.  In fact, I think his comment was something along the lines of, "I was always on Waters side in the Floyd feud."

I'm holding back my initial response to this interview for now, but if it is true then I can't see me touching a single thing from MP in the future and will be encouraging others to do likewise.

I can't say I'd do that.  No way am I jumping ship on Transatlantic and solo Neal Morse.  Ain't gonna happen.

ITT a German reporter makes everyone hate a Jew.

I won't argue the point that Waters wrote The Wall (except a few songs) but Gilmour did a majority of the musical writing along with Richard Wright. 

Not true.  Wright wrote almost nothing on The Wall.  In fact, he was so coked, not only was he creatively dead from a musical standpoint, he had trouble playing his keyboard parts, which is why a good part of the keys on The Wall were played by session guys.  And while Gilmour is on record as saying he wrote more music than he was given credit for (along with Bob Ezrin), Waters still wrote the bulk of The Wall (lyrics AND music).

[chrisbDTM]

*img*

[KevShmev]

I am still waiting for Jordan Rudess to admit that he used to have nightmares about this:

[blackngold29]

Still a lot of things we don't know, like when this interview took place, what the whole lawsuit entailed, what stage it's in, etc.


Oddest thing to me, quote from MP one week ago: "If it's in the cards to reunite down the road, I never say never." (interview here) Just not something I would expect to hear about someone you are supposedly suing.

[orcus116]

I am still waiting for Jordan Rudess to admit that he used to have nightmares about this:

[ElliottTamer]

I can assure you it has nothing to do with the fact that they're mainstream. I like Lady Gaga, but think Nickelback is crap. I hope that doesn't hurt your feelings. 

Thanks for the level-headed answer, but I think you've missed my point a little: I did not consider your comment rude because I like Nickelback, but because saying that any band/artist is "a piece of shit" or even the less offensive "crap" is a very demeaning way of saying "I don't like them/their songs". It implies that the band/artist has absolutely no value or quality. Even if that is your opinion, the way you stated it made it sound like an absolute truth and not just a matter of taste.
And as long as you're not bashing DT, my feelings are untouched

[?]

If these legal issues are really true, then I gotta say that's a dick move from Mike! I mean, my point of view is that he gave up the rights to the "Dream Theater" name by leaving. And they've been playing songs with Moore's lyrics for years, so why should Mike suddenly get all the rights to the songs he penned? I'm sure DT will win this case...

[BlobVanDam]

Seriously guys, this article was translated into German and then back into English, and ZeppDT (a lawyer) just highlighted why some of these assumptions most the thread have been operating on may be overblown. Let's all just take a hit on our inhalers and chill

DTF - Where 95% of the information comes from poorly translated interviews which is then assumed to be the worst case scenario.

Until I hear from an English source what is actually happening in detail, I'm indifferent to this. MP has done some low things since leaving the band, but some things have also been blown well out of proportion, so I'm not jumping on the bandwagon.

[Pinga]

I can assure you it has nothing to do with the fact that they're mainstream. I like Lady Gaga, but think Nickelback is crap. I hope that doesn't hurt your feelings. 

Thanks for the level-headed answer, but I think you've missed my point a little: I did not consider your comment rude because I like Nickelback, but because saying that any band/artist is "a piece of shit" or even the less offensive "crap" is a very demeaning way of saying "I don't like them/their songs". It implies that the band/artist has absolutely no value or quality. Even if that is your opinion, the way you stated it made it sound like an absolute truth and not just a matter of taste.
And as long as you're not bashing DT, my feelings are untouched

I think it's implied that no one possesses the universal truth when it comes to music discussions.

[SystematicThought]

I think I was most upset at the comment that the album was going to be called "Bridges In The Sky" I like that title a lot!

[SnakeEyes]

This whole discussion is kind of stupid.  If the remaining members of DT thought there was ANY chance of losing the name "Dream Theater," they wouldn't have released a brand new album under that name and planned an entire tour.  They're sure that "Dream Theater" is theirs.  Trust me. 

[The Silent Cody]

SnakeEyes, You're right, but if MP songs are baneed now for DT that is really sad for me...

[Metabog]

Well now I don't like him one bit. At least roger waters made  some good stuff after he left, AM is mostly meh for me, but maybe he'll come around.

[SnakeEyes]

TheSilentCody:

Oh yeah, I would imagine that the use of the songs is an entirely different issue.  But, as I pointed out in a previous post..... are Portnoy's songs really that good to be crying about? Strange Deja Vu, okay.  Change of Seasons, DEFINITELY.  But, that's two songs out of how many?  Strange Deja Vu fits better with all of SFAM, anyway, and we have Live Scenes, so I personally don't care about seeing it live.  Already saw that tour.  Change of Seasons is kind of sad, BUT.... on the other hand, how long have they been playing that?  Quite honestly, I'd rather hear a bunch of songs that DT hasn't been playing AT ALL in place of ACOS.  

[ResultsMayVary]

TheSilentCody:

Oh yeah, I would imagine that the use of the songs is an entirely different issue.  But, as I pointed out in a previous post..... are Portnoy's songs really that good to be crying about? Strange Deja Vu, okay.  Change of Seasons, DEFINITELY.  But, that's two songs out of how many?  Strange Deja Vu fits better with all of SFAM, anyway, and we have Live Scenes, so I personally don't care about seeing it live.  Already saw that tour.  Change of Seasons is kind of sad, BUT.... on the other hand, how long have they been playing that?  Quite honestly, I'd rather hear a bunch of songs that DT hasn't been playing AT ALL in place of ACOS.  

There is always the fans who haven't had the chance to see ACOS, which includes me. ACOS, 8VM, and the SDOIT sections would bother me, personally. And honestly, DT should be able to play all their songs. If the legal issues are in fact true, then this is a very bad move on MP's part.

[wammabe]

I don't think those are HIS songs just because he penned the lyrics...

Anyways, the lawsuit thing is all a misunderstanding, Portnoy is suing DT because he doesn't want DT to play the DAY AFTER DAY section of A Nightmare To Remember.

[The Silent Cody]

TheSilentCody:

Oh yeah, I would imagine that the use of the songs is an entirely different issue.  But, as I pointed out in a previous post..... are Portnoy's songs really that good to be crying about? Strange Deja Vu, okay.  Change of Seasons, DEFINITELY.  But, that's two songs out of how many?  Strange Deja Vu fits better with all of SFAM, anyway, and we have Live Scenes, so I personally don't care about seeing it live.  Already saw that tour.  Change of Seasons is kind of sad, BUT.... on the other hand, how long have they been playing that?  Quite honestly, I'd rather hear a bunch of songs that DT hasn't been playing AT ALL in place of ACOS.  

I never seen ACOS live, but I would like to see AA Suite live, just once I love the heavy side of DT.