Has Labrie started using harmonizer live?

[ReaPsTA]

It looks better visually to have a second guy singing at the mic.  Some might call it trying to fool the audience, but I don't see it that way.  

It's fake, and it's not acknowledging the fakery.  JLB's either using a harmonizer or a backing track.  It's right there for you to know.  Why wouldn't you just put it out there unless you're uncomfortable with the audience knowing what you're doing?

[IdoSC]

It'd be so weird to hear James twice and see JP trying to fool us into thinking it's him.

[Nick]

I'm very against anything being non-live, except for maybe some non-vocal sound effects triggered by Jordan (thunderclaps for example). The simple reason is that that kind of crap is what you expect from flavor-of-the-week pop bands and smutty teenage "singers", not talented professional rock bands.

Yeah except the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Their are still 5 talented musicians on stage with Dream Theater playing to the best of their abilities. This is only filling in what can't physically be done, such as a singer singing two parts at once.

[KevShmev]

I'm very against anything being non-live, except for maybe some non-vocal sound effects triggered by Jordan (thunderclaps for example). The simple reason is that that kind of crap is what you expect from flavor-of-the-week pop bands and smutty teenage "singers", not talented professional rock bands.

Has you bothered you when, in the past, Dream Theater has had the beginning of songs like Metropolis, New Millennium, etc. completely triggered, instead of playing them live?   

[bosk1]

None of that is applicable to this situation, though. James is very clearly singing along. The harmonizer is just there where it is on the albums. It's not like the harmonizer is singing the hard parts for him or something. He actually seems to be using it on parts that are probably really easy to sing, just to make them stick out more. Honestly, this harmonizer is so much better than that phaser effect James was using to fill out his voice on the last two tours.

Oh, I know.  But the topic kind of got expanded into those other areas, so I was just giving my two cents.  Again, I have no problem with James or any other singer either using a harmonizer or (more likely here), a backing track. 

...although I guess neither of these scenarios take into account a situation where you have a singer that has an unexpected voice issue and can't sing.  Do you cancel the show, go on and fake it to a backing track, or go on and sound horrible?  I don't know what the right answer is.

Go on and sound horrible.  Apologize profusely.  Come back at the end of the tour for a free makeup show.  I've seen it happen several times.  The fans don't get let down the day of a show they've been waiting months for.  They get to see a special show with the band trying to make up for a rotten singer.  They get to see a second show later with all the stops pulled out. 

Yeah, that sounds about right for an established band that can do that.  But I was more indirectly thinking of myself, since as of the time I posted that first post, my voice was completely gone and I was having violent coughing fits, and I am set to do a show in about 7 hours. 

I'm very against anything being non-live, except for maybe some non-vocal sound effects triggered by Jordan (thunderclaps for example). The simple reason is that that kind of crap is what you expect from flavor-of-the-week pop bands and smutty teenage "singers", not talented professional rock bands.

Has you bothered you when, in the past, Dream Theater has had the beginning of songs like Metropolis, New Millennium, etc. completely triggered, instead of playing them live?   

Kev, I side with you, but since you mentioned the beginning of Metropolis, I'll add two more cents to that topic as well:  Does it bother me that they don't play the intro live?  Nope.  Do I wish they would play it live instead of sampling it?  Absolutely.

[Dream Team]

I'm very against anything being non-live, except for maybe some non-vocal sound effects triggered by Jordan (thunderclaps for example). The simple reason is that that kind of crap is what you expect from flavor-of-the-week pop bands and smutty teenage "singers", not talented professional rock bands.

Has you bothered you when, in the past, Dream Theater has had the beginning of songs like Metropolis, New Millennium, etc. completely triggered, instead of playing them live?   

I prefer they not trigger anything they can actually play on their instruments. Now in the case of Metropolis, it's usually for dramatic effect so I give them a pass on that one.

[emindead]

Watching carefully the Caught in a Web videos, JR is not the one who triggers them.

[Adami]

Watching carefully the Caught in a Web videos, JR is not the one who triggers them.

How can you possibly see what every single one of his fingers are doing?

[Banny]

Watching carefully the Caught in a Web videos, JR is not the one who triggers them.

How can you possibly see what every single one of his fingers are doing?

This.

Also, triggering JLBs vocals would make sense. I seem to recall there being talk of DT returning to playing songs at their recorded tempo rather than significantly faster. (Which they often can be.) Going as far as using a click is not far-fetched, and if that's the case using a sample is very easy.

[bosk1]

Watching carefully the Caught in a Web videos, JR is not the one who triggers them.

How can you possibly see what every single one of his fingers are doing?

Not to mention that it could be triggered with foot pedals, or even with one of the keys right on the keyboard.

[Banny]

Watching carefully the Caught in a Web videos, JR is not the one who triggers them.

How can you possibly see what every single one of his fingers are doing?

Not to mention that it could be triggered with foot pedals, or even with one of the keys right on the keyboard.

In fact, that's where I would expect the sample to come from.

[El Barto]

Watching carefully the Caught in a Web videos, JR is not the one who triggers them.

How can you possibly see what every single one of his fingers are doing?

Not to mention that it could be triggered with foot pedals, or even with one of the keys right on the keyboard.

In fact, that's where I would expect the sample to come from.

Any time I recall seeing him trigger samples it's been with the lowest couple of keys.  But since he's running through a gazillion different programs each night, they could be triggered by any note based on the program that he's in.  As for pedals,  I thought there was one to advance the program mode and one for sustain and that was it, but I'm not sure.

[Ħ]

Here's the thing.  JR uses his synth to add a number of "artificial" sounds, emulating violins and choirs and things.  If that's acceptable, it doesn't seem far out to also accept other effects that supplement the other musicians.

[JayOctavarium]

Watching carefully the Caught in a Web videos, JR is not the one who triggers them.

How can you possibly see what every single one of his fingers are doing?

Not to mention that it could be triggered with foot pedals, or even with one of the keys right on the keyboard.

In fact, that's where I would expect the sample to come from.

Any time I recall seeing him trigger samples it's been with the lowest couple of keys.  But since he's running through a gazillion different programs each night, they could be triggered by any note based on the program that he's in.  As for pedals,  I thought there was one to advance the program mode and one for sustain and that was it, but I'm not sure.

He also has a wah type pedal....


Yea he probably has it set to trigger x amount of seconds after playing so and so note on the preset

[KevShmev]

I'm very against anything being non-live, except for maybe some non-vocal sound effects triggered by Jordan (thunderclaps for example). The simple reason is that that kind of crap is what you expect from flavor-of-the-week pop bands and smutty teenage "singers", not talented professional rock bands.

Has you bothered you when, in the past, Dream Theater has had the beginning of songs like Metropolis, New Millennium, etc. completely triggered, instead of playing them live?   

I prefer they not trigger anything they can actually play on their instruments. Now in the case of Metropolis, it's usually for dramatic effect so I give them a pass on that one.

Okay, but they have done it for more than just Metropolis.  They have done it for A Change of Seasons.  They have done it for New Millennium.  They have done it for Stream of Consciousness.  Hell, they did it for Pull Me Under when it was the opener on the Awake tour.

And I don't see the problem with doing it. 

But you saying you'll give them a pass is in stark contrast to your earlier comment about being very against things like that.  Are you giving DT a pass for all of those as well?

[Infinite Cactus]

Jordan can set any one of his keys to have a sample. So if he's going to be playing a C# at the time James sings a certain line, he can set that note as the trigger, and the sound he wants to be playing at the time. Also, If it was a harmonizer, and James sings out of key, the harmony would be out of key so now you have 2 out of key vocals. Also, John Petrucci is very clearly singing by himself most of the time when you see him singing. As a matter of fact, I don't think I've heard John Petrucci sing with the sampled vocals yet. Everything I've heard from him is live, and very prominent.

[Infinite Cactus]

Not to mention, back in 94-95 they used to trigger samples for the backing vocals in the Mirror.

[JayOctavarium]

Not to mention, back in 94-95 they used to trigger samples for the backing vocals in the Mirror.

really?

[Infinite Cactus]

Yes, because no one had a mic other than James. Occasionally JP  had one forfor TV performances. Temptation, Self Control, etc. were triggered live.

[Adami]

Here's pretty definitive proof of backing vocal harmonies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnJr3ueXoLM

[JayOctavarium]

I dont have a problem with this

[antigoon]

Here's pretty definitive proof of backing vocal harmonies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnJr3ueXoLM

Sounds pretty good.

[JayOctavarium]

After watching it again... I feel the need to say this...

Petrucci is a sexy beast!

[BlobVanDam]

Here's the thing.  JR uses his synth to add a number of "artificial" sounds, emulating violins and choirs and things.  If that's acceptable, it doesn't seem far out to also accept other effects that supplement the other musicians.

I've got no problem with either one, but there is a difference. A vocal harmonizer would be a similar comparison, but backing vocals would be like having a pre-recorded keyboard part entirely, but JR has always managed to play all of his parts at once live. He often triggers harmonies, but every note is still directly controlled by him.
Unfortunately singing multiple parts at once isn't an option for a singer, so it's just overcoming a basic limitation of vocal polyphony.

After watching the video, it sounds like they're using a backing track only for the parts that MP used to sing, since he usually sang the higher backup harmonies. JP is still singing his harmonies. The only other person in the band who I know is capable of singing backups is JR, and I don't think he has the range for it. I don't like missing vocal harmonies, so I'm not against this idea, but do they have to run to a click to do it? Because if that's the case, I'd prefer the more live element.

[i am fabio]

Im happy they are doing this. I really have no problem with it at all and i never have. JR wouldnt be triggering them imo. Ive heard bands without keyboardists do this and they are probably using the same tactic

[keys76]

Spoken to JR about this last sunday and he confirmed that they are using backing tracks for only a very few songs, in order to ADD some harmonies to the live vocals of James and John. He also stated that MM plays sooo tight, he could play along with a backing track without using a click.

So there you go. They're using it, but only on a few songs and also only to add to instead of replacing live vocals.

Personally I dig this approach as it improves the overall sound.

Jeroen

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Great stuff. Forsaken definitely sounds better this way.


I don't have lots of problem with backing tracks. Hell, bands like Nightwish use one shitload of backing tracks  Songs without the orchestration would just sound weird.

[Ben_Jamin]

Kuolema Tekee Taiteilijon is all backing tracks on End of an Era.

Don't know why this is such a big deal, all bands usually do this.

[?]

^It's "taitelijan". Sorry, just had to fix that, being a Finn myself!
Sonata Arctica use backing tracks for back-up vox as well; there are so many tracks of them on the albums that it would be impossible to replicate them live with only 3 backing vocalists.

Spoken to JR about this last sunday and he confirmed that they are using backing tracks for only a very few songs, in order to ADD some harmonies to the live vocals of James and John. He also stated that MM plays sooo tight, he could play along with a backing track without using a click.

Wow, makes me appreciate MM even more! All other drummers in bands I know that use backing tracks play with a click. Maybe MP was against using backing tracks so they didn't use them until now? Not blaming him by any means but I somehow feel this might've been the case.

[DTFan0789]

I'm very against anything being non-live, except for maybe some non-vocal sound effects triggered by Jordan (thunderclaps for example). The simple reason is that that kind of crap is what you expect from flavor-of-the-week pop bands and smutty teenage "singers", not talented professional rock bands.

Yeah except the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Their are still 5 talented musicians on stage with Dream Theater playing to the best of their abilities. This is only filling in what can't physically be done, such as a singer singing two parts at once.

Exactly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with them using some vocal samples to round out the sound in fill in for what physically can't be done live. Lots of bands utilize this, and it doesn't make them "fake" or any less talented of live performers.