The Forum Effect

[hefdaddy42]

@the OP: welcome, but I don't think your "forum effect" applies here.

[wammabe]

I think its inevitable for one's opinion to be affected by others. My opinion about many Dream Theater songs is usually similar to the opinions of the majority of people in this forum, but I don't think its completely because my opinion was affected by the others in this forum. I don't think people say similar things to fit in, its more of an influence thing.

[GasparXR]

Like a few others have said, there seems to be a lot of more open-minded people here compared to other places on the internet. Everyone knows the DT fanbase is largely opinionated, so of course, not that many of us are going to fake our opinions.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Welcome out of the shadows...   As far as your theory, it could apply to some.   I won't agree just to agree, but sometimes I'll hold back negative comments just not to ruffle feathers or trash a song, band, or opinion of another.

[Ben_Jamin]

I think it applies here to most newer members. But as you spend more time here, you'll start to see how much peoples opinions can change. I am one of the rare PoW lovers here, I consider it top 3 of SC.

[snapple]

If the Forum Effect makes me a cynical bastard, then it FULLY applies. 

I doubt that's the case however. I was also a long time lurker before I started posting. I've followed many threads like "What 5 Dream Theater songs could you live without?" and so on. Most of the answers vary so much it's unbelievable.

And who said the instrumental section from Beyond This Life wasn't good?  What about the LAB version?

[ZirconBlue]

I understand how consensus is commonly used, I just don't like those uses since I think it is weak and is a secondary definition.  Look at your MW link you'll see the primary definition is "general agreement" with a b part of the first to be most(weaker usage of first definition).  General is defined as the whole or meaning every member, so the primary definition is everyone comes to agreement.

At first I thought you were using a weird definition of "consensus".  Now, I see that it's your definition of "general" that's weird.   

The top 4 primary definitions from MW relate the word to whole, everybody, no exceptions, etc.  Only deeper definitions of the word relate it to most, majority, etc.

I'm posting the dictionary.com list below.  Your usage agrees, sort of, with the definition 1, but, personally, that's not a usage that I ever encounter in daily speech.  In general, I tend to hear definitions 2-7, with #2 being the best for this particular situation.  

1.  of or pertaining to all persons or things belonging to a group or category: a general meeting of the employees.
2.  of, pertaining to, or true of such persons or things in the main, with possible exceptions; common to most; prevalent; usual: the general mood of the people.
3.  not limited to one class, field, product, service, etc.; miscellaneous: the general public; general science.
4.  considering or dealing with overall characteristics, universal aspects, or important elements, especially without considering all details or specific aspects: general instructions; a general description; a general resemblance one to another.
5.  not specific or definite: I could give them only a general idea of what was going on.
6.  (of anesthesia or an anesthetic) causing loss of consciousness and abolishing sensitivity to pain throughout the body.
7.  having extended command or superior or chief rank: the secretary general of the United Nations; the attorney general.

[yorost]

You didn't have to post all of that to tell me how 'general' is used in common talk.  I didn't dispute that, just pointed out those are the lower ranked definitions..  With general used to define consensus we should assume they're using the highest applicable ranked definition, in their own dictionary, when interpreting general.

In formal writing if you call something general it should apply without exception.  If I submit an article where I claim something holds in general but it does not apply in all cases the reviewer will ask for a revision.  A dictionary is less likely to use common usage in definition outside of examples.

[reo73]

I've been on this forum for about 6 months and haven't noticed so called "forum effect" though I think it's plausible to exist to some degree.  I have noticed a wide diversity of opinions that are shared here without much danger from any majority.  Everyone seems to accept each others views rather well even though debates will break out among participants.

[Panic Supreme]

EDIT: Ignore this.  My apologies, I posted something that was meant to be in a private message.  I'm an idiot.

Thanks again for all the interesting replies, everybody!  Most of you disagree with me, a few see validity in what I said, but either way, I'm glad it's sparked a discussion.

[Super Dude]

For the most part the forum will probably be much more critical of post-SFAM stuff than the critics, and vice versa for the earlier stuff.

With a few notable exceptions.

[IdoSC]

For the most part the forum will probably be much more critical of post-SFAM stuff than the critics, and vice versa for the earlier stuff.

With a few notable exceptions.

Really? I've seen plenty of critics being very critical and even hating on post-SFAM releases.

[reneranucci]

@the OP: welcome, but I don't think your "forum effect" applies here.

This. I hate Awake and think Scarred is the worst DT song ever, and have no problem stating that in the forums. You know, it's just a forum, nothing bad or good will happen if the majority disagrees with me. And frankly, I don't see any reason why I or anybody should pretend liking something just to fit in. Maybe at the office or church, but not here.

And I think you're not assessing the opinions of critics and fans correctly. How do you know "the DTF's consensus opinion does not accurately represent the opinion of the entire fanbase". We don't know the opinion of the entire fanbase, and we don't know if DTF's or other critic's opinion are a good reflection of that. But look at the reviews on Amazon, they're very poor on the last 2 albums, which is consistent with what we have here.

[robwebster]

For the most part the forum will probably be much more critical of post-SFAM stuff than the critics, and vice versa for the earlier stuff.

With a few notable exceptions.

Really? I've seen plenty of critics being very critical and even hating on post-SFAM releases.

Very few compared to Awake, FII, etc., mind you.

[pmahoney1337]

I agree that the forum effect applies here... Did you see what I did there?

[ZirconBlue]

You didn't have to post all of that to tell me how 'general' is used in common talk.  I didn't dispute that, just pointed out those are the lower ranked definitions..  With general used to define consensus we should assume they're using the highest applicable ranked definition, in their own dictionary, when interpreting general.

In formal writing if you call something general it should apply without exception.  If I submit an article where I claim something holds in general but it does not apply in all cases the reviewer will ask for a revision.  A dictionary is less likely to use common usage in definition outside of examples.

You're fighting a losing battle, General.  It's like trying to tell people that there's no such thing as a "curved line" since by the mathematical definition a line is straight (also infinitely long and infinitely thin).  General Common usage will win out, and you're going to have a very hard time getting the general populace to come to a consensus on your definition of "consensus".

[yorost]

When Merriam Webster uses 'general in a definition you assume they're referring to the definition in their own dictionary.

edit: https://nica.ic.org/Process/Consensusbasics.php

What is Consensus?

Consensus is a group process where the input of everyone is carefully considered and an outcome is crafted that best meets the needs of the group. It is a process of synthesizing the wisdom of all the participants into the best decision possible at the time. The root of consensus is the word consent, which means to give permission to. When you consent to a decision, you are giving your permission to the group to go ahead with the decision. You may disagree with the decision, but based on listening to everyone else's input, all the individuals agree to let the decision go forward, because the decision is the best one the entire group can achieve at the  current time.

The heart of consensus is a cooperative intent, where the members are willing to work together to find the solution that meets the needs of the group. The cooperative nature of consensus is different mindset from the competitive nature of majority voting. In a consensus process the members come together to find or create the best solutions by working together. Key attributes to successfully participation include humility, willingness to listen to others and see their perspectives, and willingness to share your own ideas but not insist they are the best ones.

What consensus is not

It is not unanimous agreement. Participants may consent to an decision they disagree with, but recognize meets the needs of the group and therefore give permission to.

[TheSilentHam]

While DTF is probably less affected by something like this "forum effect" for reasons already mentioned,  I think it's only natural for a discussion to be slightly skewed towards the majority opinion – but not because of dishonest conformity.

[hefdaddy42]

Oh fuck, enough with the definitions.

[Tomislav95]

The Ministry of Lost Souls is top15 IMO and this is thing that will never change(although a lot of people here thinks this song is bad). And that forum effect don't work with me...

[emindead]

I voice my opinions when I can. I think people should be more open about them, like in the controversy thread in GMD.. it's fun.

All I want to say is that for a long while I've been wanting to listen to the album from your avatar... and yet I haven't... And I really want to...

That's it.

[LCArenas]

I voice my opinions when I can. I think people should be more open about them, like in the controversy thread in GMD.. it's fun.

All I want to say is that for a long while I've been wanting to listen to the album from your avatar... and yet I haven't... And I really want to...

That's it.

Su firma está demasiado severa.

[pain of occupation]

the forum effect can't be completely dismissed as it can partly explain the negativity towards the enjoyable Raw Dog.

[MasterShakezula]

I voice my opinions when I can. I think people should be more open about them, like in the controversy thread in GMD.. it's fun.

All I want to say is that for a long while I've been wanting to listen to the album from your avatar... and yet I haven't... And I really want to...

That's it.

All I'll say is that it's my least favorite DT.  I really dislike at least half of it. 

In the meantime, give me the soft stuff from Octovarium and Constant Motion any day! 

[Hayden]

In the meantime, give me the soft stuff from Octovarium and Constant Motion any day! 

I think you mean 'Systematic Chaos'. (And, if I want to get really nit-picky, 'Octavarium'.)

the forum effect can't be completely dismissed as it can partly explain the negativity towards the enjoyable Raw Dog.

I'm completely new here and I think that "Raw Dog" is one of the worst songs ever written by Dream Theater. The whole song just sounds... forced.

[pain of occupation]

i was half being funny (i know, try harder) and 49% serious (serious in that i enjoy the song, not the the forum effect has much to do with the negativity)

[Jarlaxle]

I'm making my return to this board by saying I fricken hate A Change of Seasons. Sure the lyrics are alright, but nothing about it has clicked with me, and when I made my top 50 list a while back it didn't even make the cut.

[darkshade]

I didn't really get into ACOS until years after getting into DT. I understand those who don't get its glory right away.

[wammabe]

The Ministry of Lost Souls is top15 IMO and this is thing that will never change(although a lot of people here thinks this song is bad). And that forum effect don't work with me...

I was always confused as to why people dislike that song. I could understand it if they dislike Forsaken or You Not Me(I still like them all), but Ministry of Lost Souls is a beautiful song.

[MasterShakezula]

The Ministry of Lost Souls is top15 IMO and this is thing that will never change(although a lot of people here thinks this song is bad). And that forum effect don't work with me...

I was always confused as to why people dislike that song. I could understand it if they dislike Forsaken or You Not Me(I still like them all), but Ministry of Lost Souls is a beautiful song.

Forsaken does nothing for me.  You Not Me is pretty cool, but it's far inferior to You Or Me. 

MoLS is good, but I prefer the soft section of ITPOE#1

[Jarlaxle]

I didn't really get into ACOS until years after getting into DT. I understand those who don't get its glory right away.

There's no glory to "get". It is a bland and highly overrated song. I've been into Dream Theater for years and I still feel this way, IMO there are probably 70 better DT songs.

[wammabe]

I didn't really get into ACOS until years after getting into DT. I understand those who don't get its glory right away.

There's no glory to "get". It is a bland and highly overrated song. I've been into Dream Theater for years and I still feel this way, IMO there are probably 70 better DT songs.

Don't worry, you'll get its glory eventually. You're just not ready yet. 

[Jarlaxle]

Don't count on it.

[m0hawk]

I didn't really get into ACOS until years after getting into DT. I understand those who don't get its glory right away.

There's no glory to "get". It is a bland and highly overrated song. I've been into Dream Theater for years and I still feel this way, IMO there are probably 70 better DT songs.

Ehh, highly overrated  may be correct, but I'd have to disagree with the "bland" criticism. There are certain sections in the song that are sensational (namely Another World and Carpe Diem), but they are lost in some DT-by-the-numbers instrumental sections that sap away the magic. I really wish they re-worked the song and taken out the excess fat, and it would be a top 5 song for me.

[ariich]

Re: OP

What you're calling The "Forum Effect" is a part of real life.  Let's say we meet in real life somehow:

Panic "Oh, aren't you ReaPsTA from DTF?"
ReaP "Yeah.  It's cool seeing someone from the forum in the real world."
Panic "I know, right?  I'm really excited to see the band live but no one I know really cares."
ReaP "Hah, no kidding."
Panic "What track from the new album are you excited to see?"
ReaP "Probably Breaking All Illusions.  It's a really long song with Myung lyrics.  Trial of Tears is one of my favorite DT songs ever, so I hope it's like that."
Panic "I dunno, I think it's kind of boring."
ReaP "Oh..."

Like, see how being negative just makes things lame?  Same here.  I could complain about Beyond This Life and Endless Sacrifice having bad instrumental sections here all the time, but that would gain me or anyone else... what exactly?  By trying not to be super opinionated and abrasive all the time, we're showing this thing that I hear is called empathy toward our fellow users.  And this ultimately helps us enjoy our corner of the internet as much as possible.

This doesn't even make sense in the context, because a lot of the "forum consensus" opinions are negative ones, e.g. Systematic Chaos is bad, MP's vocals are awful, etc etc. And I wouldn't even say that these are really a consensus in terms of the number of people, but more in the dynamic of the discussions. Those with negative opinions tend to say the most.

However, I don't think it's a case of people deliberately trying to fit in, which I'm sure happens, but not very much at DTF. I just think that people have easily swayable opinions, and get strongly influenced by what they perceive to be the "consensus" instead of being happy with their own opinions.