Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse

[FlyingBIZKIT]

SC is my 9th favorite album, where BC&SL is 6th.

[sfam2112]

Both have their pros and cons. I'll take BC&SL over SC. But, I don't think it's WAY better.

[Mr. Beale]

Both have their pros and cons. I'll take BC&SL over SC. But, I don't think it's WAY better.

Loved both when they came out, not quite as big on them now. Still like BCSL more but half the songs drag at times now.

[dethklok09]

The dark eternal nightmare to remember

1. A nightmare to remember (1st half)
2. The dark eternal night
3. Wither (piano version)
4. A nightmare to remember (2nd half)
5. The dark eternal night (last few minutes reprise)
6. The count of tuscany (ending)

[SystematicThought]

I'm currently in love with In The Presence of Enemies. A song I used to hate with a passion. I just love it.

Consider me a fan of Systematic Chaos now, a departure from things I said yesterday. I just love this album right now.

[BlackInk]

Systematic Chaos was my "introducer", the first Dream Theater thing I ever heard was the intro of In the Presence of Enemies Part I. This of course made Systematic Chaos my favorite album in the begining. Although it's not there at the top anymore I still have In the Presence of Enemies far up my top 10 and I like The Ministry of Lost Souls very much too (and The Dark Eternal Night if I'm in the right mood).

Although I did love Black Clouds and Silver Linings at first that was mainly because of the excitement of new material. Now I just can't like it like that again. It has some up-moments like the intro and outro to The Count of Tuscany and "Beautiful Agony". But the less great stuff allways bothers me, like weird lyrics, undynamic vocal melodies, far to long solos (I love instrumental section, they can be however long they want but I'm not a big fan of to long solos) and unispired riffs.

[tri.ad]

SC is pretty stagnant for me (somewhere in the lower tier); BCASL didn't age really well, although it's still in the upper half of my album ranking.

[TAC]

SC is a very fun listen it's easy on the ears. It felt like after the high emotion of Score, that the band basically went in and just had fun. Not the greatest album, but I was willing to give them a pass. So I had high expectations for BC&SL, but unfortunately, there's not enough distance between the two musically. In their entire catalog, they're the two back to back albums that are most closely related.

If I rank the tracks it looks like this.

1. The Count Of Tuscany
2. The Best Of Times
3. In The Presence Of Enemies
4. The Dark Eternal Night
5. The Ministry Of Lost Souls
6. Prophets Of War
7. Forsaken
8. A Nightmare To Remember
9. Wither
10. Constant Motion
11. A Rite Of Passage
12. Repentance
13 The Shattered Fortress

[robwebster]

Systematic's no longer a dangerous new direction, which kind of makes it easier to like. It's something that happened, they've written two more albums since, which - as time passes - makes it harder to resent and easier to love. It's no longer "what's happening to my favourite band?" It's "something that happened to my favourite band," which is a lot more digestible. FII, at the time, showed symptoms of something dangerous creeping over the band, but it's since been vindicated on its strengths rather than its weaknesses. Same applies to Awake, in fact. Took quite a lot of years, and there are still people who don't like it just as there will always be those who dislike Systematic Chaos - but as time passes, any grudges become that little bit more irrational.

Not to mention, as time passes, we shed those who were truly alienated by Systematic Chaos, keeping those who didn't hate it that much, so new generations of fans will be those who aren't that bothered by it.

I've always preferred SC slightly, though. It's got a lot more character to it - it's an interesting album which broached a lot of new ground, as opposed to BCSL, which had an element of "phoning it in" for - arguably - the first time in their career. Both good albums, but SC's more unique, and thereby the more compelling listen. BCSL, by and large, just strikes me as a more austere Systematic Chaos.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

SC is a very fun listen it's easy on the ears. It felt like after the high emotion of Score, that the band basically went in and just had fun. Not the greatest album, but I was willing to give them a pass. So I had high expectations for BC&SL, but unfortunately, there's not enough distance between the two musically. In their entire catalog, they're the two back to back albums that are most closely related.

If I rank the tracks it looks like this.

1. The Count Of Tuscany
2. The Best Of Times
3. In The Presence Of Enemies
4. The Dark Eternal Night
5. The Ministry Of Lost Souls
6. Prophets Of War
7. Forsaken
8. A Nightmare To Remember
9. Wither
10. Constant Motion
11. A Rite Of Passage
12. Repentance
13 The Shattered Fortress

1. The Count of Tuscany
2. In The Presence of Enemies
3. Repentance
4. The Best of Times
5. A Nightmare To Remember
6. The Shattered Fortress



7. The Ministry of Lost Souls
8. Wither


9. Prophets of War
10. The Dark Eternal Night
11. A Rite of Passage
12. Constant Motion
13. Forsaken

[Super Dude]

I think they both suck.

[Mladen]

2009: SC > BC&SL

2011: SC > BC&SL

I'll try to rank the songs...

The Ministry of lost souls
In the presence of enemies
The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to remember
Repentance
The Best of times
Wither
Constant motion
Prophets of war
Forsaken
The Dark eternal night
A Rite of passage
The Shattered fortress

[Super Dude]

2009: SC > BC&SL

2011: SC > BC&SL

I'll try to rank the songs...

The Ministry of lost souls
In the presence of enemies
The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to remember
Repentance
The Best of times
Wither
Constant motion
Prophets of war
Forsaken
The Dark eternal night
A Rite of passage
The Shattered fortress

In terms of song rankings pretty much what I would've said for the first 5, but I'd put CM and Forsaken higher and TBOT much, much lower.

[stryker]

Listen to WDADU more, and you may learn that it is actually better than all of DT's four most recent albums.

-J

Hell yes!  This 100%

[PixelDream]

Yeah, I listened to SC again last night (I know the album well, but I had not touched it even once since BC&SL came out. I thought BC&SL was way better and that there was no need for SC).

I was pretty amused by the album actually. ITPOE is pretty good, still the weakest DT epic though. Forsaken is a really cool song, CM is a cool guilty pleasure, TDEN slays, Repentance has a very good JP solo, PoW plain sucks, MOLS was better than I remembered.

So yeah, SC is pretty cool. BC&SL is still better though, but as someone said: SC definately has more of a 'face' as a record. BC&SL is way too vanilla, but of the highest quality.

At the end of the day, I love BC&SL more, but it's not as far away from SC as it once was.

[TAC]

Listen to WDADU more, and you may learn that it is actually better than all of DT's four most recent albums.

-J

Hell yes!  This 100%

I always count the WDADRu because of the continuity of James's voice, but yes, that generally ranks as my #3 or #4 DT album. I hardly ever listen to the Charlie version.

[darkshade]

Listen to WDADU more, and you may learn that it is actually better than all of DT's four most recent albums.

-J

Hell yes!  This 100%

I always count the WDADRu because of the continuity of James's voice, but yes, that generally ranks as my #3 or #4 DT album. I hardly ever listen to the Charlie version.

me too, though I'd probably rank it a little lower

[7thHanyou]

Listen to WDADU more, and you may learn that it is actually better than all of DT's four most recent albums.

-J

Hell yes!  This 100%

I always count the WDADRu because of the continuity of James's voice, but yes, that generally ranks as my #3 or #4 DT album. I hardly ever listen to the Charlie version.

Regardless of the version, I've always thought the songwriting on When Dream and Day Unite is strong enough to put it in the top half of Dream Theater albums.  It feels like the precursor to Images and Words that it is, which makes it a very, very good album.

I can't conceive of ranking BC&SL or SC above it.  These two albums meander so much that they actually qualify previously unfair criticisms of Dream Theater (directionless jams, lack of songwriting, dumb lyrics).  It's almost like the band was trying to parody itself to an extent.  Not that bad, but bad enough to leave a sour taste.

In practically every department that should matter most, WDaDU did right what Dream Theater's most recent albums did wrong.  It's weaker in terms of vocals and production, but if the songs are better, that should be easily overcome.

[Dublagent66]

I hardly listen to either one these days.  They are what they are.

[stryker]

Listen to WDADU more, and you may learn that it is actually better than all of DT's four most recent albums.

-J

Hell yes!  This 100%

I always count the WDADRu because of the continuity of James's voice, but yes, that generally ranks as my #3 or #4 DT album. I hardly ever listen to the Charlie version.

Regardless of the version, I've always thought the songwriting on When Dream and Day Unite is strong enough to put it in the top half of Dream Theater albums.  It feels like the precursor to Images and Words that it is, which makes it a very, very good album.

I can't conceive of ranking BC&SL or SC above it.  These two albums meander so much that they actually qualify previously unfair criticisms of Dream Theater (directionless jams, lack of songwriting, dumb lyrics).  It's almost like the band was trying to parody itself to an extent.  Not that bad, but bad enough to leave a sour taste.

In practically every department that should matter most, WDaDU did right what Dream Theater's most recent albums did wrong.  It's weaker in terms of vocals and production, but if the songs are better, that should be easily overcome.

Very well said!  I hardly listen to BC&SL and SC as well.  The most listened to song between both of them as of late on my iPod is Wither.

[bosk1]

I guess I can "sort of" identify with what you are waying in the OP, H, but I don't think that reflects poorly on BCSL for me at all.  I typically find myself going through a cycle with DT's material where when a new album comes out, I like it a lot and listen to it incessantly.  By the time the next album comes out, I've kind of burned out on it and don't like it as much, but then by the time the next album after that is about ready to come out, it seems like that first album really has its own valuable place in the DT discography and climbs a few rungs.  So following that pattern, I've found myself listening to SC a lot more lately and liking it, and not liking BCSL as much. 

But one thing I will say about both albums:  While I don't see a consistent drop in quality on the Roadrunner albums as a few people would suggest, I see bigger gaps between the songs that are really good and the ones that really don't interest me.  I've posted before about how SC is an amazing half or 2/3 of an album.  But the stuff I don't care for is really "skipable," and I never really found myself skipping a lot of DT songs before these two albums.  Take ITPOE, Forsaken, Constant Motion, A Nightmare To Remember, and The Shattered Fortress together, and you have what I would consider one of the strongest, if not THE strongest collection of DT songs around.  And if you really want to throw in some filler, you've got a lot of "okay" songs you can toss in between The Dark Eternal Night, Repentence, A Rite Of Passage, Wither, and The Count of Tuscany.  But then you've got songs that I just don't connect with at all and don't care if I ever hear again, and they take up a lot of minutes on the albums so that when you combine them with the more middle of the road songs, the really strong moments just don't seem to shine quite as much. 

[wammabe]

^ When I found out that BC&SL had only 6 songs, I thought it would have 6 great songs, since I really don't think that albums with such a small amount of songs should have "fillers". I expected something like SDOIT, in which all of the songs feel equally great.

A good anime with lots of fillers is completely ruined for me. 

[Ħ]

Great Songs
Constant Motion
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to Remember
The Shattered Fortress

Pretty Good Songs
The Ministry of Lost Souls
The Dark Eternal Night

Meh Songs
Repentance
Forsaken
Wither

Lame-o Songs
A Rite of Passage
Prophets of War

Based on this mock-up, it's really hard to decide which is better for me.  But I just feel like SC is a better album. Maybe I am burnt out on BCSL and SC just feels fresh.

[BlackInk]

Post

I'm doing that one too.

Great Songs
In the Presence of Enemies
The Ministry of Lost Souls (though this changes sometimes)
Repentance

Pretty Good Songs
The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to Remember
The Dark Eternal Night
The Shattered Fortress
Prophets of War

Meh Songs
Constant Motion
Forsaken
Wither

Lame-o Songs
The Best of Times
A Rite of Passage

[Jaffa]

Is there some reason you guys are leaving out The Best of Times?  Just curious.

[BlackInk]

Fixed it.

[Ħ]

Is there some reason you guys are leaving out The Best of Times?  Just curious.

It was totally 100% MP's song and had we known he was about to quit the band, we wouldn't have even put it on our album.

[Jaffa]

Ah, fair enough.  Just wondered.

[MetropolisxPt1]

Is there some reason you guys are leaving out The Best of Times?  Just curious.

It was totally 100% MP's song and had we known he was about to quit the band, we wouldn't have even put it on our album.

That seems eerily similar to mp's space dye vest quote o wait.

[iamtheeviltwin]

^ When I found out that BC&SL had only 6 songs, I thought it would have 6 great songs, since I really don't think that albums with such a small amount of songs should have "fillers". I expected something like SDOIT, in which all of the songs feel equally great.

A good anime with lots of fillers is completely ruined for me. 

This killed Bleach for me and has made me pass alot of Naruto.  Both Manga are great, but the anime both meander far too much from the source material.


As to the topic at hand.  I enjoy both albums and they probably rank in the middle of my DT rankings.  However, I am finding I don't listen to SC much as an "album".  Other than Constant Motion (which I play rarely), the other songs I will pull up when the mood strikes.  I really enjoy Forsaken (love the Piano intro and the story in the lyrics) and ITPOE (which I tend to combine into an epic).  The rest of the songs I'll pull out individually and enjoy.  However, BC&SL I like to listen to as an album.  I feel like the whole thing "fits" in a way that no other album has since Awake.

Not sure which I prefer, but it mainly depends on if I want to dedicate 70+ minutes to a single album or jump through some songs.

[IdoSC]

To me, both albums are pretty great, but they're on the bottom of my top DT albums list because (ignore me being a fanboy), I love DT and each of their other albums have some amazing moments that are some of the reasons I love music as a whole, and progressive metal in particular.

I also hated Systematic Chaos for a pretty long time. It's a great album, but DT pushes two of the directions of their music presented in TOT and 8V: their metal, heavy side, and their side that's inspired by bands like Muse. However this album is a unique addition to DT's catalog, and it has some incredible moments.

I never liked BCSL that much, mostly because it's very formulaic and generic when compared to other albums of DT in my opinion. However, it does have it's amazing moments. Surprisingly, my favorite track in this album is The Best of Times, and I can get into details about that, but that's not the point right now.

These albums are also on the bottom of my list because they have the two tracks of DT that I genuinely dislike - A Rite of Passage and Repentance. But I still love these albums, and they're great. The best thing about DT is that I could happily listen to what I consider their worst material any day, because it's still good and well-thought.

[BlackInk]

What's wrong with Repentence?

[Jaffa]

Hate to use a cliche phrase, but that song really drags on.  The section of spoken apologies takes too long, and the instrumental section takes even longer.  A lot of great DT songs don't feel as long as they are, because they're so fun to listen to that the long time flies by - this song is the opposite for me.  It feels much, much longer than it is.

[bosk1]

Same here.  In principle, everything in the song is a great idea.  But in practice, I don't find that it makes for a song that I am interested in listening to very often.

[TheGreatPretender]

Hate to use a cliche phrase, but that song really drags on.  The section of spoken apologies takes too long, and the instrumental section takes even longer.  A lot of great DT songs don't feel as long as they are, because they're so fun to listen to that the long time flies by - this song is the opposite for me.  It feels much, much longer than it is.

You know what though? I don't like it when DT uses any kinds of samples in general. Not in Voices, not in The Mirror... But ESPECIALLY not in Space-Dye Vest, Honor Thy Father, or Repentance. Even if the Repentance ones were recorded specifically for it. I'd rather listen to a minute and a half of a repeating riff if that's all that's backing it, to be honest.