Rotating set lists (updated spoilers)

[Hal Incandenza]

Oh yeah.  I remember the "Aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!  *thud!*" on the bootleg.    Also unfortunately for our show, it was one of VERY few on the tour that does not have a recording in circulation.  As far as we know, there was only one taper at the show, and that recording was lost.

Can you remember the city/date of the show? Maybe I have the bootleg, but I never noticed the scream 

March 17, 2004, St. Louis, The Pageant.  Memorable show.   

Unless there was another show where this happened, which is possible, I guess.

[Hal Incandenza]

Accidental double post.  Whoops.

[KevShmev]

Oh yeah.  I remember the "Aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!  *thud!*" on the bootleg.    Also unfortunately for our show, it was one of VERY few on the tour that does not have a recording in circulation.  As far as we know, there was only one taper at the show, and that recording was lost.

Can you remember the city/date of the show? Maybe I have the bootleg, but I never noticed the scream 

March 17, 2004, St. Louis, The Pageant.  Memorable show.   

Unless there was another show where this happened, which is possible, I guess.

No, that was the one.  In fact, I think that incident is the reason why Portnoy stopped throwing his drum sticks into the crowd.

[Adami]

I was supposed to go to that show too, but I had a night class that night that I could miss. Damnit.

[Metal]

Just in case anyone missed this in the transcript of Kyo's interview:

K:  You've been shortening some of the old songs on recent tours, like Voices and Take the Time. Whose idea was that?
JLB:  Yeah... I don't know! (gives a sarcastic look) Heh! Wasn't mine, but... You know, I'm not saying... That's what Mike wanted and he was partly right, because to sing those songs every night and all those sections would've been extremely taxing on my voice. But the way we like to work it out now, like doing Learning to Live and doing all these songs where I'm singing like F#s and stuff like that, is, ,,let's put that in the set, but I'll sing it one night here and I'll sing it another night here, but I won't sing it every night." – and that way, I can do the whole frickin' tune.
K:  OK, let's talk setlists. Who's in charge now?
JLB: It's kind of collaborative. What we did is we all wrote down our favorite songs and then we took all of everyone's favorite songs and we kind of broke it down. OK, this would be A, this would be B, this C and D... And that's how we figured out what made sense for the setlist.
K: So you're not doing rotating setlists right now because Mike is still new to the band, but you will keep changing songs from night to night...
JLB: Yeah, we'll keep saying, ,,OK, let's take that tune out and let's put this tune in", but I don't think it's ever going to be like it was, where it's like, here's one set and you come tomorrow night and it's completely different. No.
K:  It's too much...
JLB:  I think it is. I think this way we'll be a well-oiled machine and we'll be just like (assumes aggressive pose). And we're already feeling that now. But there will be some substitutes. There will be like, ,,OK, that song's tonight, but I'm not singing that song tomorrow night. I'm gonna sing this other older tune tomorrow night. And this other older tune the next night. And then we're gonna come back to that one." So it just kinda floats it around, but it helps me. My voice healed and I'm back to normal, but I'm also cognisant of what I'm capable of doing. And if I keep it balanced then I can do it. So I'm not gonna try to be Superman and prove that (in a cheesy voice) ,,I'm gonna go out there and sing these songs like hell!" – no, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna be mature and I'm gonna say ,,I can do these songs only if we do this, and we scope it out and we space it out". And there you go!

[Aniland]

That's a shame that it's not going to be like it used to be. That could have been one of the band's best things: show that they can literally do EVERYTHING Portnoy organized. The fact that they aren't going to... it's not bad, just disappointing.

[JayOctavarium]

That's a shame that it's not going to be like it used to be. That could have been one of the band's best things: show that they can literally do EVERYTHING Portnoy organized. The fact that they aren't going to... it's not bad, just disappointing.

You wish it would go back to The Way It Used To Be?

ok i think I am tryung to hard

[KevShmev]

That's a shame that it's not going to be like it used to be. That could have been one of the band's best things: show that they can literally do EVERYTHING Portnoy organized. The fact that they aren't going to... it's not bad, just disappointing.

Who says they can't do it?  Maybe they just don't want to. 

Ideally, I have always liked the idea of doing rotating set lists, but with 75% of the set list pretty much intact.  Any songs from the new album you are touring on, play those every night.  Any older songs that haven't been played in years but you are bringing back, play every night (like Peruvian Skies and These Walls right now).  But non-brand new songs that have been played frequently over the years, rotate those (like Forsaken, Fatal Tragedy and Endless Sacrifice right now).

[SystematicThought]

Quite frankly, the past few tours, MP wasn't rotating that much. The set lists kind of started to look the same and you could bet Constant Motion or Panic Attack would show up. There wasn't much variety.

Also the fact that according to JLB, they have Set List: A,B,C,D. They're still rotating from night to night, but it won't be as much. Quite honestly, it will feel like the way MP has been doing it for the past few years.

Some over another forum, we all know which, they're saying how they probably won't go to a show on this tour because of the non-rotating sets. Also, because of JLB saying how MP was trying to grab the limelight when it should have been a band effort, to be one as a unit

[RaiseTheKnife]

Seeing the same set three/four times in a tour does get boring.  I would trade a little rustiness or gaffs in a few songs for variety any day.  But I also understand why a band of Dream Theater's caliber would not. 

I assume the A B C D lists will expand with new album songs as the US tour hits.  If they rotate new songs, that would definitely get fans like me to pony up for multiple shows.

[ibosmiley]

I guess the benefit of a fairly standard set list is that if you do only go to just one show you know what you're going to get.  I have loved the mystery of the rotating set lists, but I suppose it can be a bummer if the song you really want to hear gets played in the next city over and then not in yours.

[Adami]

I'm sure the set lists won't be constant from now on. The first tour will probably have stable sets only because it takes a while for a new guy to get these songs down, they're not easy. However, over time his knowledge will expand and hopefully the set lists will vary.

[Mbarak]

I assume the A B C D lists will expand with new album songs as the US tour hits. 

I'm sure the set lists won't be constant from now on. The first tour will probably have stable sets only because it takes a while for a new guy to get these songs down, they're not easy. However, over time his knowledge will expand and hopefully the set lists will vary.

I agree and think it's a mix of both. I think it's challenging for any new drummer to learn the whole back catalog of DT. The current shows comprise only of old DT songs with only one new one, so they're giving him a break by sticking with the same set list.

Saying this, once the album is out, DT will be able to play a good chunk of the new songs on the show, i.e. the songs MM is probably most familiar with. They'll take more time from the show and old songs will get played less, which then will give more chance to rotate setlists.

[Nekov]

What sucks the most about it is that they will not fully rotate in consecutive nights. I got used to see them twice the same week.

they should play LIE more...it's been ages, and that song kills.

This. They actually played it last time I saw them, and it was incredibly awesome because when the second chorus was suppose to come, they just stopped playing and let the crowd sing through it and then continued on with the rest of the song.

[Dublagent66]

Yeah, seems like pretty much a no brainer to me.  Why would someone get upset because they're not rotating set lists with a new band member on tour?  Duh 

[ShadowWalker]

but even the most improvisational groups like the Dead or Bruce Hornsby, Phish, etc. stick to at least a core setlist per leg of a tour.

Wrong. Find me seven consecutive nights of Grateful Dead shows that have similar setlists.

Phish does not even bring setlists to the stage (at least they stopped writing them around 1996 according to interviews with the band. Don't know if that has changed again since they reformed).

As for the topic at hand, for a band where fans are known to travel to see multiple shows (DT, Springsteen, jam bands...), it really makes sense to keep it fresh and encourage keeping people on those road trips. On the other hand, I read an interview with Geddy Lee back in the TFE days and he said the reason Rush does not switch it up nightly is because they don't want fans to feel gipped if songs get played in one city and not another. They want to bring the same experience to all fans on a given tour.

Arguements can go both ways on this subject and it would be hard to say one or the other is right.

[IronEarthTheater]

The biggest way it impacts me is that I like to be surprised at shows.  With most bands, I had to avoid reading anything about the tour so as to avoid spoilers.  I could still kind of pay attention to DT info because of the rotating set lists.  But, as others have mentioned, they have rotated less over time.  Not sure it will be a big deal to just wait until the show...

[JediKnight1969]

The obsesive compulsive control freak is out of the picture now. As hardcore fans, we're all grateful for his effort, but now, the priority is to protect JLB's voice. Rotate wisely.

[ShadowWalker]

I liked what Springsteen was doing on his last tour cycle. He had a general frame of songs that would be played nightly, songs that seemed to rotate in and out and then he took audience requests each night, which generated some pretty unpredictable results. And even with a setlst in hand, he was known to deviate mid-concert if he wanted things to go in a different direction.

[razorsedge]

but even the most improvisational groups like the Dead or Bruce Hornsby, Phish, etc. stick to at least a core setlist per leg of a tour.

Wrong. Find me seven consecutive nights of Grateful Dead shows that have similar setlists.

Phish does not even bring setlists to the stage (at least they stopped writing them around 1996 according to interviews with the band. Don't know if that has changed again since they reformed).

As for the topic at hand, for a band where fans are known to travel to see multiple shows (DT, Springsteen, jam bands...), it really makes sense to keep it fresh and encourage keeping people on those road trips. On the other hand, I read an interview with Geddy Lee back in the TFE days and he said the reason Rush does not switch it up nightly is because they don't want fans to feel gipped if songs get played in one city and not another. They want to bring the same experience to all fans on a given tour.

Arguements can go both ways on this subject and it would be hard to say one or the other is right.

just fyi: you're correct, phish does not bring any sort of setlist on stage with them. 

Yeah, since Phish came back, I'll just walk around backstage and ask everybody, "What do you want to play?" and people will say, "Oh, I want to sing this or that until I have thirty or forty songs on a piece of paper. It's like the writing. The set lists are all over the place. A mess. Then we go out onstage and just forget about it. We give a set list to Chris every night and he just laughs and rips it up. We never even play the first song.

i posted some phish stats you'd find interesting on the first or second page of this thread.

[Millais]

Quite frankly, the past few tours, MP wasn't rotating that much. The set lists kind of started to look the same and you could bet Constant Motion or Panic Attack would show up. There wasn't much variety.

^agreed. awesome avatar btw! classic.

[CrimsonSunrise]

I wouldn't be surprised if the setlist changes for the U.S leg.  I'm thinking that of course there will be songs from the new LP.  Also, by the time the Euro leg is done, he will be pretty well versed in the songs on the existing setlist that he's been playing. So now you give him a new batch of songs for the US leg, at least a few to help add to his knowledge base.  He would have some time (weeks) to learn a few more, or they can throw in Spirit, ANTR, or Dance of Eternity.  I'd say give him a few more...If it's not too taxing..

[KevShmev]

Updated spoilers below

Like I said the other day, it has become apparent that writing a Dream Theater set list is no problem at all, and something the other guys have always been more than capable of doing, as the set lists since last summer have shown.

Some other thoughts:

-Except for The Count of Tuscany being played a bit last summer, Black Clouds and Silver Linings has been ignored by the band.  Makes you wonder if they aren't/weren't overly wild about that record.  I don't recall their 2nd most recent album ever being ignored this much on a tour. 

-Two songs have been played from When Dream and Day Unite over the last six plus months.  Remember when Portnoy used to say that, if it weren't for him, those songs would never get played since he was the only one who had interest in them anymore?  Yeah, I think we can safely call bull shit on that now.

-Now that songs with Portnoy lyrics are being played, the idea that they can't/won't play such songs is now dead in the water. 

[Ħ]

-Except for The Count of Tuscany being played a bit last summer, Black Clouds and Silver Linings has been ignored by the band.  Makes you wonder if they aren't/weren't overly wild about that record.  I don't recall their 2nd most recent album ever being ignored this much on a tour.

Two of the songs were MP songs (and very personal ones, at that).  And they played the heck out of ANTR, TCOT, and AROP.  I guess Wither is an option but that appeared around the second half of PN09.

[bosk1]

Except for The Count of Tuscany being played a bit last summer, Black Clouds and Silver Linings has been ignored by the band.  Makes you wonder if they aren't/weren't overly wild about that record.  I don't recall their 2nd most recent album ever being ignored this much on a tour.   

Could be.  But, actually, I don't think your second sentence is entirely accurate.  For bands like DT (and including DT) who tend to play a LOT of material from whatever album they are touring on, it is fairly common to scale way back on that material on the tour for the following album.  And another issue with the BCSL material is that it is all very long.  Yet a third problem is the song listing itself:  Only six songs to choose from.  Of those, ANTR, AROP, and TCOT were played every show.  Wither is an option, but there are only so many ballads/slow songs you can put in a set, and I think DT's choices for those have been pretty spot on.  That really leaves only TSF and TBOT to choose from, both of which are very long and very personal to MP (not that they can't or won't play songs where MP penned the lyrics, but I would think they would very well stay away from a couple like TBOT that are very personal to Mike).  I could maybe see TSF played some day, but not not TBOT. 

So while you could very well be right, to me, there are many plausible explanations for why no BCSL songs in the set. 

[BlobVanDam]

Except for The Count of Tuscany being played a bit last summer, Black Clouds and Silver Linings has been ignored by the band.  Makes you wonder if they aren't/weren't overly wild about that record.  I don't recall their 2nd most recent album ever being ignored this much on a tour.   

Could be.  But, actually, I don't think your second sentence is entirely accurate.  For bands like DT (and including DT) who tend to play a LOT of material from whatever album they are touring on, it is fairly common to scale way back on that material on the tour for the following album.  And another issue with the BCSL material is that it is all very long.  Yet a third problem is the song listing itself:  Only six songs to choose from.  Of those, ANTR, AROP, and TCOT were played every show.  Wither is an option, but there are only so many ballads/slow songs you can put in a set, and I think DT's choices for those have been pretty spot on.  That really leaves only TSF and TBOT to choose from, both of which are very long and very personal to MP (not that they can't or won't play songs where MP penned the lyrics, but I would think they would very well stay away from a couple like TBOT that are very personal to Mike).  I could maybe see TSF played some day, but not not TBOT. 

So while you could very well be right, to me, there are many plausible explanations for why no BCSL songs in the set. 

Spot on. And as has been said, TSF and TBOT are basically excluded regardless of DT's feelings towards them. TCOT was played a fair bit, and that's 20 minutes out of the set. How many more could they realistically fit and still cover the rest of their material? The nature of an album of "epics" excludes playing too much of it by song length alone, not necessarily anything sinister about DT disliking the album. And the fact they chose ANTR as their drummer audition song too also supports that DT have no problem at all with the album.

And what was the second WDADU song played? I only know of Ytse Jam, and I don't follow every setlist that closely.

[bosk1]

They cut Ytsejam and added AFIL.

[BlobVanDam]

Ah cool, didn't know they'd slipped that one in. While I'd rather not have any WDADU in the setlist, that's one of the few songs I wouldn't mind hearing.

[Setlist Scotty]

-Two songs have been played from When Dream and Day Unite over the last six plus months.  Remember when Portnoy used to say that, if it weren't for him, those songs would never get played since he was the only one who had interest in them anymore?  Yeah, I think we can safely call bull shit on that now.

I beg to differ - I'm sure that MP was truthful when he said that the rest of the band was not into performing songs off that album. For starters, remember that neither James nor Jordan were on that album so they have no connection.

Let's also keep in mind that while MP was in the band, the fans became accustomed to certain things because of what he did - rotating the setlists and adding songs from all eras, both popular and unpopular being one of them. Had MP created those precedents (not done the rotating setlists nor included songs from WDaDU), I doubt you'd see either today. The band knows that there are fans of that album just as they know there are some fans who will attend multiple shows, so they try to appease both - I know in the case of rotating setlists that James did make some reference to that during the LA show last September, tho I don't remember exactly what was said, and I'm pretty certain that the same is true of WDaDU. For real proof, let's see how long it takes for them to resurrect some of the Majesty-demo tracks...   

[ReaPsTA]

-Except for The Count of Tuscany being played a bit last summer, Black Clouds and Silver Linings has been ignored by the band.  Makes you wonder if they aren't/weren't overly wild about that record.  I don't recall their 2nd most recent album ever being ignored this much on a tour. 

This was semi-addressed in another post.  But there was an interview with Rudess where, when talking about what song from BCSL to play during the European tour, he didn't want to play ANTR because of its darker and heavier content. 

-Two songs have been played from When Dream and Day Unite over the last six plus months.  Remember when Portnoy used to say that, if it weren't for him, those songs would never get played since he was the only one who had interest in them anymore?  Yeah, I think we can safely call bull shit on that now.

Not necessarily.  If you're JP, your perspective has to change depending on your situation.  If you're not making the setlists, it's easy to say that since WDADU isn't very important to you playing the songs is a chore.  When you're actually making the setlists, then you start thinking "we'd better to at least one or else the hardcore and long time fans will freak out."

-Now that songs with Portnoy lyrics are being played, the idea that they can't/won't play such songs is now dead in the water.

That's the case NOW.  There's no reason to believe that before this tour they weren't able to, but the situation has been sorted out.

[KevShmev]

Except for The Count of Tuscany being played a bit last summer, Black Clouds and Silver Linings has been ignored by the band.  Makes you wonder if they aren't/weren't overly wild about that record.  I don't recall their 2nd most recent album ever being ignored this much on a tour.   

Could be.  But, actually, I don't think your second sentence is entirely accurate.  For bands like DT (and including DT) who tend to play a LOT of material from whatever album they are touring on, it is fairly common to scale way back on that material on the tour for the following album.  And another issue with the BCSL material is that it is all very long.  Yet a third problem is the song listing itself:  Only six songs to choose from.  Of those, ANTR, AROP, and TCOT were played every show.  Wither is an option, but there are only so many ballads/slow songs you can put in a set, and I think DT's choices for those have been pretty spot on.  That really leaves only TSF and TBOT to choose from, both of which are very long and very personal to MP (not that they can't or won't play songs where MP penned the lyrics, but I would think they would very well stay away from a couple like TBOT that are very personal to Mike).  I could maybe see TSF played some day, but not not TBOT. 

So while you could very well be right, to me, there are many plausible explanations for why no BCSL songs in the set. 

Spot on. And as has been said, TSF and TBOT are basically excluded regardless of DT's feelings towards them. TCOT was played a fair bit, and that's 20 minutes out of the set. How many more could they realistically fit and still cover the rest of their material? The nature of an album of "epics" excludes playing too much of it by song length alone, not necessarily anything sinister about DT disliking the album. And the fact they chose ANTR as their drummer audition song too also supports that DT have no problem at all with the album.

That all sounds very reasonable.  Again, I was just wondering before , not definitively saying.  After all, BC&SL was my favorite of the albums from 2003-2009, so it's not like I was trying to take the "The band doesn't like it, so therefore it isn't good" stance or anything like that.

-Two songs have been played from When Dream and Day Unite over the last six plus months.  Remember when Portnoy used to say that, if it weren't for him, those songs would never get played since he was the only one who had interest in them anymore?  Yeah, I think we can safely call bull shit on that now.

I beg to differ - I'm sure that MP was truthful when he said that the rest of the band was not into performing songs off that album. For starters, remember that neither James nor Jordan were on that album so they have no connection.

Let's also keep in mind that while MP was in the band, the fans became accustomed to certain things because of what he did - rotating the setlists and adding songs from all eras, both popular and unpopular being one of them. Had MP created those precedents (not done the rotating setlists nor included songs from WDaDU), I doubt you'd see either today. The band knows that there are fans of that album just as they know there are some fans who will attend multiple shows, so they try to appease both - I know in the case of rotating setlists that James did make some reference to that during the LA show last September, tho I don't remember exactly what was said, and I'm pretty certain that the same is true of WDaDU. For real proof, let's see how long it takes for them to resurrect some of the Majesty-demo tracks...   

The problem with assuming Portnoy was being truthful is that he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt, as there are too many instances of him speaking for the band that have since been shown to not really be the case, and this appears to be another.  It is very possible that JLB and JR do not have a lot of interest in that record, but it is also very possible that JP and JM do, and with everyone now having a say-so in what is played (as opposed to one guy making it and saying, "THIS is what we are playing."), it is a safe assumption that every song getting played is one that at least one member of the band really pushed for.  And it is resulting in well-rounded sets with a little bit from every era. 

As for the Majesty songs, there are probably like 7 fans at every show who even know any of those songs, much less want to hear them , so I don't think that really matters (not like you were being really serious anyway).

-Except for The Count of Tuscany being played a bit last summer, Black Clouds and Silver Linings has been ignored by the band.  Makes you wonder if they aren't/weren't overly wild about that record.  I don't recall their 2nd most recent album ever being ignored this much on a tour. 

This was semi-addressed in another post.  But there was an interview with Rudess where, when talking about what song from BCSL to play during the European tour, he didn't want to play ANTR because of its darker and heavier content. 

I remember that.  Honestly, I am surprised that neither Wither nor A Rite of Passage have been played.  Both are short enough to equally squeeze in.  Not saying either would be high on my list of songs I personally would want to hear, just surprised that neither has been played.

-Two songs have been played from When Dream and Day Unite over the last six plus months.  Remember when Portnoy used to say that, if it weren't for him, those songs would never get played since he was the only one who had interest in them anymore?  Yeah, I think we can safely call bull shit on that now.

Not necessarily.  If you're JP, your perspective has to change depending on your situation.  If you're not making the setlists, it's easy to say that since WDADU isn't very important to you playing the songs is a chore.  When you're actually making the setlists, then you start thinking "we'd better to at least one or else the hardcore and long time fans will freak out."

Eh, I seriously doubt that.  I think even the most diehard fans of WDADU would probably assume that it is not likely that anything from it would be played on a regular basis, which is why it is nice to see several songs from it get that treatment over the last six months.  DT doesn't strike me as the type of band that will play songs they don't care for, just to appease the fans.  They have more than enough fan favorites that they don't need to do that.

-Now that songs with Portnoy lyrics are being played, the idea that they can't/won't play such songs is now dead in the water.

That's the case NOW.  There's no reason to believe that before this tour they weren't able to, but the situation has been sorted out.

Okay, but we don't know that there ever really was a situation.  Just because some assumed that there was one doesn't mean there was one.  It was more than likely just a coincidence that they didn't play any Portnoy-penned songs before this week.  It's not like he wrote lyrics for a ton of songs to where avoiding them becomes obvious. 

[theseoafs]

Wow, I hadn't realized the next leg of the tour had started. That is one kickass setlist. A Fortune in Lies is a real surprise. I'm really happy Surrounded is back in, and The Root of All Evil is an interesting add too (as well as a really ballsy way to swiftly end the rumors that DT won't be playing material with lyrics by MP).

The Dark Eternal Night gets a spot right after Surrounded in the B setlist, which is the same place it was in for the Rosemont show on the Chaos in Motion tour. It's just interesting to me that they're sticking with such a funny transition. And The Spirit Carries on gets the pre-Breaking All Illusions spot it always deserved, so that's good.

Overall, DT has got some really awesome sets here, and I'm bummed I won't be witnessing them.

[ZirconBlue]

-Now that songs with Portnoy lyrics are being played, the idea that they can't/won't play such songs is now dead in the water.

That's the case NOW.  There's no reason to believe that before this tour they weren't able to, but the situation has been sorted out.

Actually there are 2 reasons not to believe that to be the case:


1) There's very little precedent for it.  Of all the infamous splits in rock history, I can't think of a single example of a band being disallowed from playing songs with lyrics by a former member.  It would have to be a very bizarre, virtually unheard of arrangement for that to happen.  And,
B) The band specifically denied that it was the case. 


So, really, the opposite of your statement is true:  There's no reason to ever believe that they weren't allowed to play songs with MP-penned lyrics.

[hefdaddy42]

1 and B?

[BlobVanDam]

TDEN in one of their current setlists? That is a very pleasant surprise! Since I love so many of the songs that heavily feature MP vocals, it's nice to see they're not afraid to tackle them without him.

I just checked the clip on Youtube, and I see that they're going with just JLB in the verses, and JP is doing the MP shouted parts. Actually, for the second chorus, JP isn't at the mic at all and his backups are still playing. Is he lip syncing to that? I thought they were only using backing tracks for parts they couldn't manage with the two of them live? And it's an interesting change seeing JR use the Zen Riffer for the outro solo rather than the continuum.