DT's latest lyrics - Have they declined in quality? Also, DT's best lyrics?

[ariich]

For me, I feel like after Awake, they have been really incosistant with lyrics.

The reason for the change in lyrical quality in the mid-to-late 1990s is obvious: Myung and Moore lyrics stopped; Portnoy lyrics started.  You're taking two incredible lyricists out of the mix and substituting them with Portnoy, who had some good moments lyrically, but his lyrics frequently contain cliche phrases and he just wasn't able to paint the beautiful word pictures that JM and KM could.

So yea, I basically agree with Hal in the post above.

Actually I've always liked MP's lyrics. If there has been any decline at all, it's that JP has become a bit less consistent, but that's about it.

[Ben_Jamin]

The only lyrical problem I have is The Best of Times repeated use of Day.

[Storm Rider]

The only lyrical problem I have is The Best of Times repeated use of Day.

TCOT is okay for you?

[Zook]

The only lyrical problem I have is The Best of Times repeated use of Day.

TCOT is okay for you?

I don't have a problem with TCoT's lyrics either. Some of them are funny, but that just makes the song more fun to listen to.

[bosk1]

First, do you think the bands modern lyrics are as good as their older lyrics?

For the most part, yeah.  They've always been a band for me where most of the lyrics were a cut above, and on a given album, you'd have a few great lyrical contributions, but a few that weren't very good.  If anything, I'll say that some of the lyrics on the last two albums haven't been quite as inspired as in the past, but still very good overall.  Or maybe another way to put it is that the peaks haven't soared quite as high, but there is still a pretty consistent level of goodness.

The lyrics on later albums seem more. . . rushed, I guess.  Like they're a good first draft, but some of the songs really needed some more work to smooth some of the more awkward phrasing.  

That's a good point.  If there is anything critical I can say about some of the lyrics on the recent albums is that there are more times when they don't seem quite as polished as at points in the past.  But as far as phrasing, they've had awkward phrasing for quite some time.  Kevin, who many feel wrote some of the band's best lyrics, wrote some of the worst phrasing/vocal melodies (parts of LFAGA and OAMOT, for example).  

Secondly, what do you consider as being their best lyrics?

Overall, or per album?  I guess I'll pick a song per album since that's easier.

WDADU:
The Killing Hand.  Neat story.  I like the twist.  I like a lot of Kev's lyrics on this album as well, but it's interesting that he wrote some of my most favorite and least favorite on this album.

I&W:
-Learning To Live.  A few other good choices I could have picked as well, but the lyrics are hard-hitting if you know what they're about, and still somehow poetic and interesting if you don't.  Some good use of literary devices as well.

Awake:
-The Mirror - Simple and effective.  Some nice wordplay as well.

FII:
-Lines In The Sand and Trial of Tears both have some really good lyrics.  Whether ranking the entire song against the entire song or only my favorite parts against my favorite parts, it's hard to pick a favorite.  

Scenes:
-The Spirit Carries On - Yeah, I think the idea of reincarnation is stupid.  But the song still interestingly takes a left-turn from the story narrative and somehow makes it into a bigger philosophical debate through one of the characters.

6DOIT:
-Disappear - Just really powerful and emotional.  These lyrics still get me choked up.  But The Great Debate and Misunderstood are close behind.

TOT:
-Vacant - Same is Disappear.

Octavarium:
-Octavarium - Lots of neat stuff going on hear.  Parts of the lyrics aren't noteworthy, but they all work together in sometimes clever sometimes silly ways.  Never Enough would be my next choice probably.

SC:
-Repentence.  Not one of my favorite songs on the album at all.  In fact, it's generally on my "skip" list.  But the lyrics are really pretty powerful.  CM also has some fun stuff going on, even though those lyrics aren't really very "deep."  ITPOE, despite taking a lot of passages right from The Priest, has some interesting things going on as well.

BC&SL:
-Hmm...while the lyrics on TBOT are the most personal and can hit me hard when I'm in the right mood, they are so overly specific to Mike's experiences and have more of that "first draft" feeling so that I have to say, overall, I don't like them nearly as much as I almost feel I should.  TSF has a lot of cool stuff going on, inclusing subtle twists on prior 12SS lyrics.  But I probably have to go with TCOT as the best on the album.  They are deliciously ironic and narrative at the same time and convey the vibe of the song well.

[Vajra]

The Count of Tuscany - They are deliciously ironic and narrative at the same time and convey the vibe of the song well.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how are the lyrics to that song ironic?

I also think TCOT contains probably the worst lyrics of all time in regards to respectable bands imo. When I listen to DT's lyrics, I want to feel like I'm transported to some kind of dream, or emotional journey, but with TCOT I get JP riding around in a car, talking about beards, wine, and descriptions of a mansion. There's nothing in this song to relate to, and at least with ITPOE we had an interesting subject, so the literal story worked, but the story of TCOT is just stupid imo. I get it must have been pretty weird for JP when it happened, but it doesn't really make a good song.

I don't think anyone can deny that if TCOT had lyrics of ACOS's quality, the song would be a much better experience to listen to.

[Ħ]

TCOT is interesting.  On one level, it's overtly literal, but on another, I think it's one of those things where you can feel incredibly emotional in the mundaneness of life.  Obviously, some count giving a tour of his old castle isn't terrifying, but the terror evoked by the song is more of a reflection of the protagonist's inner psychology.  I guess you could compare it to Porcupine Tree's "A Smart Kid", which is literally corny (bunch of aliens pick up last survivor of nuclear holocaust) but some people can interpret it as generally feeling alone and isolated.

Kevin, who many feel wrote some of the band's best lyrics, wrote some of the worst phrasing/vocal melodies (parts of LFAGA and OAMOT, for example).

Are you talking about the "a father's benediction as his hopeless son departs" part?  As unnatural as it is, I think that phrasing is incredibly creative and it's my favorite part of the song.

[bosk1]

The Count of Tuscany - They are deliciously ironic and narrative at the same time and convey the vibe of the song well.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how are the lyrics to that song ironic?

Because the protagonist is obviously genuinely terrified as the journey progresses, whereas the audience (us) get the feeling that, while the situation is progressively becoming more and more odd, there's nothing to be that freaked out about, and then we end up at the end of the song laughing at what a doofus the protagonist is.  The melodrama both in the lyrics and the delivery of the (lines like "let me introduce...my brother!," for example) heighten the incongruence between what is actually happening and what the protagonist thinks is happening.  I mean, it's nothing earth-shattering (but then again, a lot of what is considered "classical literature" really isn't all that earth-shattering when you really dig into it either).  But it is cleverly done. 

[Vajra]

The Count of Tuscany - They are deliciously ironic and narrative at the same time and convey the vibe of the song well.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how are the lyrics to that song ironic?

Because the protagonist is obviously genuinely terrified as the journey progresses, whereas the audience (us) get the feeling that, while the situation is progressively becoming more and more odd, there's nothing to be that freaked out about, and then we end up at the end of the song laughing at what a doofus the protagonist is.  The melodrama both in the lyrics and the delivery of the (lines like "let me introduce...my brother!," for example) heighten the incongruence between what is actually happening and what the protagonist thinks is happening.  I mean, it's nothing earth-shattering (but then again, a lot of what is considered "classical literature" really isn't all that earth-shattering when you really dig into it either).  But it is cleverly done. 

Good point, but a few things..

1. For me personally, that irony isn't strong enough to make the lyrics effective in my opinion. I think when done well, irony is a powerful tool, but in TCOT it's just used poorly.

2. The lyrics could have at least been written more elegantly. I'm not asking for some deep allegory, but I would have preferred something at least a little deeper and more thought out.

3. I don't think JP intended on making some grand display of irony like you explained. From what I've heard, the story of the song is based on an actual experience JP had in Tuscany, so I think this song was more about him just explaining the experience.

[Metabog]

It's a bit of a silly line in some regards, but I kinda like it. It's a lot less cringeworthy than
TELL YOUR STEPFATHER I SAID SO

That may look like a cheesy line, but the delivery by JLB in that song is top notch and memorable.

[Buckethead]

The Count of Tuscany is just a waste of a great piece of music that could've had an excellent story and could've been very touching but instead it was jp getting scared but actually it was just a ol' misunderstanding  oh silly jp lololol. And the big building epic ending is just the count being like " whoops! didn't mean to spook ya, big guy! tell 'em about my broski!"

Sorry but I guess I really do not like those lyrics at all and I know they could've done better had they taken their time.

[j]

DT have always had some good and some bad lyrics.  Recently, it's not that they're writing WORSE lyrics (TBOT, PoW, and Never Enough are pretty bad, but the rest are at least passable or maybe a little "pedestrian"), it's that there are almost no really good, clever, thoughtful lyrics anymore IMO.  And that aspect has been largely absent from their music since (and including) SFAM.

-J

[bosk1]

3. I don’t think JP intended on making some grand display of irony like you explained. From what I’ve heard, the story of the song is based on an actual experience JP had in Tuscany, so I think this song was more about him just explaining the experience.

Oh, I think he absolutely intended them that way because the real life story is dripping with irony.  If he tried to tell a more serious story about the actual events, I'm not sure it would have worked given what actually happened.  The fact that is was an actual experience does not, IMO, take away anything from it.

2. The lyrics could have at least been written more elegantly. I’m not asking for some deep allegory, but I would have preferred something at least a little deeper and more thought out.

Yes, they could have been.  But, again, given what happened, and given the tone he was going for, I don't think more "elegant" lyrics would have conveyed the same thing. 

1. For me personally, that irony isn’t strong enough to make the lyrics effective in my opinion. I think when done well, irony is a powerful tool, but in TCOT it’s just used poorly.

Okay, yeah, I'll give you that one.  As I mentioned, I don't think either the story itself or the lyrics are suppoed to be overly "powerful."  But the bottom line is, if they don't resonate with you and convey that irony, then they just don't.  The only thing I will disagree with you about on this point is that I don't think any of that makes the irony "poor."  But otherwise, yeah, I see where you are coming from, and that's a perfectly valid position. 

[VioletS16]

Best - ITNOG, ACOS or Voices
Worst - TCOT

IMO James is the best lyricist in DT  

[Vajra]

Oh, I think he absolutely intended them that way because the real life story is dripping with irony.  If he tried to tell a more serious story about the actual events, I'm not sure it would have worked given what actually happened.  The fact that is was an actual experience does not, IMO, take away anything from it.

Yes, they could have been.  But, again, given what happened, and given the tone he was going for, I don't think more "elegant" lyrics would have conveyed the same thing.  

Okay, yeah, I'll give you that one.  As I mentioned, I don't think either the story itself or the lyrics are suppoed to be overly "powerful."  But the bottom line is, if they don't resonate with you and convey that irony, then they just don't.  The only thing I will disagree with you about on this point is that I don't think any of that makes the irony "poor."  But otherwise, yeah, I see where you are coming from, and that's a perfectly valid position.  

I'll just leave it at that I just do not enjoy TCOT's lyrics lol. I don't think William Shakespeare himself could persuade me into thinking otherwise.  

What this thread needs, is JP at his finest...

Animation
breathes a cloudless mind
Fascination
leaves the doubting blind
Until the circle breaks and wisdom lies ahead
the faithful live Awake
the rest remain misled

Some will transcend spinning years
One as if time disappears

Innocence faded
the mirror falls behind you
Trinity jaded
I break down walls to find you

Callow and vain
fixed like a fossil, shrouding pain
Passionless stage
Distant like brothers
Wearing apathetic displays
Sharing flesh like envy in cages
Condescending
Not intending to end

Beginnings get complicated
the farther we progress
Opinions are calculated
Immune to openness

Beyond the circle's edge
We're driven by her blessings
Forever hesitating
Caught beneath the wheel

Cynically jaded
The child will crawl to find you.


Anyone else think this song is about our pursuit to view the world scientifically instead of religiously? I think the innocence mentioned in the song is a religious perspective, and how it fades once we get older. There's a lot of references to religion, and knowledge, which is what leads me to believe my analysis.

[Jaffa]

Well, my opinion on the subject is probably not worth much.  I like PoW, so what do I know?  By DTF standards, I'm an aberration in the statistics. 

But, I do have to admit that almost all of my favorite DT lyrics came from before ToT.

[hefdaddy42]

I think the last album with really good lyrics throughout was 6DOIT.

But lyrics have never been DT's strong point.  Of course, that is one reason that I love Awake so much - I feel it is the only album where the lyrical quality matched the musical quality of the songs.

[Vajra]

Of course, that is one reason that I love Awake so much - I feel it is the only album where the lyrical quality matched the musical quality of the songs.

Images and Words has some beautiful lyrics too, I'd say they are just as good as Awake's lyrics. What I love about the lyrics on I&W is that they suit their name of "Dream" Theater quite well, as the lyrics are very dream like, and provoke a lot of imagery. I'm not the biggest poetry buff, but the lyrics of I&W remind me of poetry from the Transcendental/Romanticism era.

[Jaffa]

-Learning To Live.  A few other good choices I could have picked as well, but the lyrics are hard-hitting if you know what they're about, and still somehow poetic and interesting if you don't.  Some good use of literary devices as well.

Enter me, the ignorant new guy.

Would anyone be so kind as to elaborate on what LtL's lyrics are about?

[Vajra]

-Learning To Live.  A few other good choices I could have picked as well, but the lyrics are hard-hitting if you know what they're about, and still somehow poetic and interesting if you don't.  Some good use of literary devices as well.

Enter me, the ignorant new guy.

Would anyone be so kind as to elaborate on what LtL's lyrics are about?

I've read that it's about a person dealing with having AIDS.

Just checked it here also, and it says the same thing...

https://dreamtheater.wikia.com/wiki/Learning_to_Live

[Jaffa]

-Learning To Live.  A few other good choices I could have picked as well, but the lyrics are hard-hitting if you know what they're about, and still somehow poetic and interesting if you don't.  Some good use of literary devices as well.

Enter me, the ignorant new guy.

Would anyone be so kind as to elaborate on what LtL's lyrics are about?

I've read that it's about a person dealing with having AIDS.

Just checked it here also, and it says the same thing...

https://dreamtheater.wikia.com/wiki/Learning_to_Live

Thank you kindly.

[EpicCookie]

Lines in the Sand, Trial Of Tears, Octavarium, Change of Seasons, The Dance of Eternity (JM WROTE THOSE LYRICS... jk) Learning To Live
and a lot more, but I think those lyrics have a lot of emotions and stuff, and that's niiice

[Dream Team]

Of course, that is one reason that I love Awake so much - I feel it is the only album where the lyrical quality matched the musical quality of the songs.

Images and Words has some beautiful lyrics too, I'd say they are just as good as Awake's lyrics. What I love about the lyrics on I&W is that they suit their name of "Dream" Theater quite well, as the lyrics are very dream like, and provoke a lot of imagery. I'm not the biggest poetry buff, but the lyrics of I&W remind me of poetry from the Transcendental/Romanticism era.

This is 100% the way I feel also.

[goodnightkiss]

The leave of KM might took away some of the lyrical talent..But im looking forward to more JP's lyric instead MP's.
Now JP'S has the chance to take more lyric-writting job..

[Hal Incandenza]

The leave of KM might took away some of the lyrical talent..But im looking forward to more JP's lyric instead MP's.
Now JP'S has the chance to take more lyric-writting job..

Petrucci's been their #1 lyricist by volume on every single album except for Images and Words where he's tied with Moore.  Lately he's been writing the majority of the lyrics on every album.  He isn't exactly starving for the chance to get his stuff out there.

[ZirconBlue]

The leave of KM might took away some of the lyrical talent..But im looking forward to more JP's lyric instead MP's.
Now JP'S has the chance to take more lyric-writting job..

MP had already indicated that he might not write any lyrics on the next release.