Why do people think DT11 wont be heavy without MP?

[MetropolisxPt1]

Its ridiculous to say without MP the Metal aspect will leave, They defined a ProgMetal as a genre.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

They didn't define prog metal. Sure they had some importance in the genre, but they didn't define it.

And the whole metal aspect leaving, I think people are wording that wrong. They mean they will be less modernized metal and more in the metal vein they had before.

[bosk1]

Its ridiculous to say without MP the Metal aspect will leave, They defined a ProgMetal as a genre.

 Hardly anyone is saying that.  JP wrote the vast majority of the heavy riffs for DT, so there's no reason to think they won't continue to be heavy.

They mean they will be less modernized metal and more in the metal vein they had before.

What does this even mean?

[ariich]

Its ridiculous to say without MP the Metal aspect will leave, They defined a ProgMetal as a genre.

  Hardly anyone is saying that. 

Hardly anyone, true, but there have been a few people who think the metal will be toned down.

Which is of course possible, but (1) there will still be plenty of it, and (2) it would have nothing to do with MP not being there.

[Nighthawkwill7]

I think the band will still retain metal elements seeing as JP & JLB are fans of the heavy stuff as well.

[xShammas]

Its ridiculous to say without MP the Metal aspect will leave, They defined a ProgMetal as a genre.

 Hardly anyone is saying that.  JP wrote the vast majority of the heavy riffs for DT, so there's no reason to think they won't continue to be heavy.

They mean they will be less modernized metal and more in the metal vein they had before.

What does this even mean?

I think less like AROP/ANTR/CM, and more like The Glass Prison, Home, In the Name of God. Personally, I just want more TCOT.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Its ridiculous to say without MP the Metal aspect will leave, They defined a ProgMetal as a genre.

 Hardly anyone is saying that.  JP wrote the vast majority of the heavy riffs for DT, so there's no reason to think they won't continue to be heavy.

They mean they will be less modernized metal and more in the metal vein they had before.

What does this even mean?

I think less like AROP/ANTR/CM, and more like The Glass Prison, Home, In the Name of God. Personally, I just want more TCOT.

Nah I meant less all of that and more Awake-y.

[bosk1]

But why would you think that?  Again, for all the songs that are mentioned that you want to see less of, JP wrote all or most of the riffs.

[gmillerdrake]

My feeling is that it will sound more 'Awake' metal than 'BC&SL' metal. But that is more of a wish than any actual conclusion based on evidence. I just hope there aren't any more forced blast beats...DT has never needed or never should need a blast beat anywhere in any of thier songs. Ever.

[hefdaddy42]

No ass, no balls.

[j]

Its ridiculous to say without MP the Metal aspect will leave, They defined a ProgMetal as a genre.

  Hardly anyone is saying that. 

Hardly anyone, true, but there have been a few people who think the metal will be toned down.

Which is of course possible, but (1) there will still be plenty of it, and (2) it would have nothing to do with MP not being there.

I agree with everything but (2) is purely conjecture.  We don't know where and to what degree Portnoy steered DT, only the guys know.  I definitely got the impression that Portnoy listened to a lot of "modern" metal bands and it would be only natural that they'd influence him musically.  So I think it's fair to say that *some* of the inevitable differences in DT's music, however minor, could be attributed to the absence of Portnoy.  One of the main driving forces behind the band's musical direction is gone, it's to be expected.  Of course that is all just conjecture too.

Anyway, DT have always played heavy stuff, and played it well, and I'm sure they will continue to do so.  Heavy or not, I just hope they mix it up a little and take things in new directions.

-J

[King Postwhore]

No ass, no balls.

The Exaggerator.

It will sound heavy because that's what prevalent in the sound of today.

[ariich]

Its ridiculous to say without MP the Metal aspect will leave, They defined a ProgMetal as a genre.

  Hardly anyone is saying that. 

Hardly anyone, true, but there have been a few people who think the metal will be toned down.

Which is of course possible, but (1) there will still be plenty of it, and (2) it would have nothing to do with MP not being there.

I agree with everything but (2) is purely conjecture.  We don't know where and to what degree Portnoy steered DT, only the guys know.  I definitely got the impression that Portnoy listened to a lot of "modern" metal bands and it would be only natural that they'd influence him musically.  So I think it's fair to say that *some* of the inevitable differences in DT's music, however minor, could be attributed to the absence of Portnoy.  One of the main driving forces behind the band's musical direction is gone, it's to be expected.  Of course that is all just conjecture too.

Anyway, DT have always played heavy stuff, and played it well, and I'm sure they will continue to do so.  Heavy or not, I just hope they mix it up a little and take things in new directions.

-J

Sure, I get that, but as bosk said, MP wasn't the one who actually wrote the chunky riffs, JP was. And I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have written them if he didn't like them.

If anything I think the proggy side might be enhanced from JR and possibly even JM taking more of a lead role. So maybe an indirect effect of MP leaving rather than a direct one.

But that's just speculation anyway. I'm completely open to anything to be honest.

[King Postwhore]

It wouldn't surprise me if at some point they do a less metal album.  DT tends to change things up album to album most of the time.

[chaotic_ripper]

It wouldn't surprise me if at some point they do a less metal album.  DT tends to change things up album to album most of the time.

Not lately. I think Octavarium was their "less metal" album and it may be their last. It seems like JP like a good mix of heavy and more mainstream stuff, so who knows what the hell they are gonna come up with.

[darkshade]

It wouldn't surprise me if at some point they do a less metal album.  DT tends to change things up album to album most of the time.

Not lately. I think Octavarium was their "less metal" album and it may be their last. It seems like JP like a good mix of heavy and more mainstream stuff, so who knows what the hell they are gonna come up with.

I dont know about that. Also, I dont understand why SC and BC&SL gets lumped together. SC was more metal and "fun" album, in reaction to 8V being a more serious but lighter album; whereas BC&SL was MUCH heavier, and at the same time, MORE melodic than SC

[Aniland]

Because Mike would say, "TEH ALBUM NEEDS TO HAVE BALLS. BALLS! BALLLLLLS!

[SnakeEyes]

 Hardly anyone is saying that.  JP wrote the vast majority of the heavy riffs for DT, so there's no reason to think they won't continue to be heavy.

I somewhat disagree.  From everything I have read and seen in interviews, it seems like Portnoy was the guy pushing for DT to be heavier.  I don't remember the other guys talking about "balls and chunk."  Portnoy really strikes me as a trendy person to begin with.  From the 'balls and chunk' comment to his various changes in image over the years (colored beard and hair, tatoos, etc) to his comments regarding James' vocal style not being in line with mainstream music, he just sceams, "I want to be trendy because this is what's popular right now."  And, for the past decade or so, "being heavy" has been really popular. 

I'm not knocking Portnoy, so don't "warn me," please.  No need for that.  I'm just making an observation.  It's Portnoy's right to have whatever image he chooses. 

[The Presence of Frenemies]

 Hardly anyone is saying that.  JP wrote the vast majority of the heavy riffs for DT, so there's no reason to think they won't continue to be heavy.

I somewhat disagree.  From everything I have read and seen in interviews, it seems like Portnoy was the guy pushing for DT to be heavier.  I don't remember the other guys talking about "balls and chunk."  Portnoy really strikes me as a trendy person to begin with.  From the 'balls and chunk' comment to his various changes in image over the years (colored beard and hair, tatoos, etc) to his comments regarding James' vocal style not being in line with mainstream music, he just sceams, "I want to be trendy because this is what's popular right now."  And, for the past decade or so, "being heavy" has been really popular. 

I'm not knocking Portnoy, so don't "warn me," please.  No need for that.  I'm just making an observation.  It's Portnoy's right to have whatever image he chooses. 

I don't entirely disagree with this point of view, but it should be remembered that it was Portnoy who was responsible for the epic songs and original clashes with the label over FII and such. Without his resolutely sticking to his idea of "the DT sound," SFAM may never have happened. It's not like the guy's a sellout or something--not that you implied that.

I'm sure Portnoy likes the newer stuff--he wanted to be in A7X, after all. It's not just a pose. And hey, if you like two types of music equally and see more money in one than the other, then I don't see why you wouldn't go for it.

Back on topic...I think the big thing with the new album is going to be experimentation, kind of like with Scenes. Just like with Scenes, the band has now (for a very different reason) basically wiped their musical slate clean and is starting from scratch in a relatively new and unfamiliar mindset. With all the members having more sway, I imagine we're gonna get a taste of each of their styles on the album, rather than just the Petrucci/Portnoy stuff and the occasional (and often disjointed) JR section.

So there'll be heavy stuff, to be sure. But I'm thinking that sonically, it's gonna be in that Scenes realm, although with different production I'm sure. Nobody would say Scenes is a "light" album, but it's not trying to be monolithic in scope, and has plenty of moments where the band does drastically different things (TDOE, TSCO, etc.).

So I think that's going to be it--the band experimenting with what they can do in a post-Portnoy setting. I imagine some of the experiments might fall a bit flat, but others will be pretty stunning. Or maybe they'll all be home runs and we'll get another Scenes.

In any case, I think they will get a bit more varied and less uniformly heavy, but that's less because of some "tyrant MP" being gone and more because the band dynamic is just more evenly balanced now by default. We know LaBrie doesn't contribute much if anything musically, and Mangini wrote nothing beyond his parts. That leaves the decidedly non-metal Rudess and the naturally varied Petrucci and Myung. It almost HAS to be less heavy than a band largely run by Petrucci and Portnoy. I mean, Rudess is replacing Portnoy now as the #2 biggest songwriter in the band, after all--whatever you think of "how metal" Portnoy is, I think we ALL agree that he pushes things more to the metal side than Rudess does. Or Myung does, most likely.

[orcus116]

Sure JP writes heavy stuff but MP's encouragement probably lead to a lot of stuff sticking around longer than others. For example I can picture in my head JP playing the main heavy riff to "A Nightmare To Remember" and MP really getting excited over it, driving a mild jam riff into a main cog of a song. Same with the main riff of "The Dark Eternal Night". I personally feel both riffs don't really represent the level JP can write when it comes to heavier stuff so I've always been confused why they were even used.

[ReaPsTA]

I don't know what this will mean or where it will go, but let's try some semi-scientific analysis (and by semi-scientific, I mean barely scientific and insane):

Key - DOMINANT GENRE, secondary genre

I&W
Pull Me Under - METAL, prog
Another Day - ROCK, PROG
Take the Time - ROCK, PROG, metal, funk
Surrounded - PROG, rock/metal
Metropolis - PROG/METAL
Under a Glass Moon - METAL/PROG
Wait for Sleep - BALLAD, prog
Learning to Live - PROG, METAL, rock

Awake
6:00 - ROCK, metal, prog
Caught in a Web - METAL, prog
Innocence Faded - PROG, ROCK, metal
Erotomania - PROG, metal
Voices - PROG, METAL, ballad
The Silence Man - BALLAD, prog, rock?
The Mirror - METAL, prog
Lie - METAL, prog
LSOAD - PROG, BALLAD, rock
Scarred - METAL, prog
Space Dye Vest - ELECTRONIC/PIANO, prog, metal

Systematic Chaos
ITPOE Pt. 1 - PROG, metal
Forsaken - POP, METAL, prog
Constant Motion - METAL, prog?
TDEN - METAL, prog
Repentance - PROG, metal?
POW - ROCK, prog
TMOLS - PROG, metal
ITPOE Pt. 2 - PROG, METAL

BCSL
ANTR - METAL, PROG
AROP - METAL, prog
Wither - PROG, metal
TSF - METAL, prog
TBOT - PROG, rock, ballad
TCOT - PROG, metal

Tabulation of Results
I&W - 4 METAL, 6 PROG, 2 ROCK, 2 metal, 2 prog, 2 rock
Awake - 5 METAL, 4 PROG, 2 ROCK, 2 BALLAD, 1 ELECTRONIC/PIANO, 4 metal, 6 prog, 2 rock,
SC - 4 METAL, 4 PROG, 1 POP, 1 ROCK, 3 metal, 4 prog
BCSL - 3 METAL, 4 PROG, 2 metal, 2 prog, 1 rock, 1 ballad

And... we haven't learned much very far.  The one conclusion we can draw is that DT's music is becoming more exclusively pop and metal, with the influx of other genres such as rock and ballads decreasing.  In this sense, we can see they're becoming less multidimensional.  But we can't really say they're getting more metal, can we?  For more semi-science, let's use a "metal points" system.  DOMINANT genres are 2 points, secondary genres are one point.

I&W - 1.25 metal points per track
Awake - 1.27 metal points per track
SC - 1.38 metal points per track
BCSL - 1.33 metal points per track

So DT's getting more metal, but not necessarily by a huge amount.  Let's try the same thing, but with the amount of prog:

I&W - 1.75 prog points per track
Awake - 1.27 prog points per track
SC - 1.5 prog points per track
BCSL - 1.67 prog points per track

MMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I'm not sure how much I believe this post myself, but it does kinda confirm my feeling that DT never really became less prog or metal.  I think the increasing predominance of prog and metal together to the exclusion of, say, super heavy progressive rock says a lot more.

[ariich]

Wtf at Wither being "metal" and not ballad.

It was a nice idea but you seem to have skewed the results with some very unusual choices.

[tgstk2]

I think the reason why there are people who think that DT will  be less metal is because MP was (if i'm correct) the only one who actually said he liked metal (as dozen of other genre's), naming metal bands.

I think when DT played metallica's MOP in its entirely JP or JR somewhere said he never heard teh record before!!....
JP is not listening to Metal much (years ago i dont know if this is still the same)...but not listening doesn't mean you dont like to play/make it.

i think with MM in the band there's even more metal in DT than there ever was. (check out the drumming on the album "metal" from annihiliator). now that's some freaking metal drumming!

Yes i love MP as a drummer, but his metal drumming skills are so-so (his blastbeat was ridicilous!)

[hefdaddy42]

Wtf at Wither being "metal" and not ballad.

[jonny108]

Voices a ballad? Eh? 

[Metabog]

They didn't become more metal over time, they just switched their influences from classic power metal and prog metal to more nu metal and modern metal styles and stuff recently, losing some originality along the way. I think SFAM-SDOIT is the period where we heard the actual "DT sound" on its own. Then we got albums were people literally recognized the influences from Tool, Muse, U2, Meshuggah, etc. It's less melodic nowadays with more riffing.

I'm not sure what will happen next, but I kind of wish they'd return to SFAM-style DT, or maybe explore something new. 

Wouldn't say Mangini is a metal drummer, he's played with some metal bands, but he's a well rounded drummer. I mean, Minnemann played with Necrophagist, but I don't think he's a metal drummer, though he has the skills to be one. I think there's a high chance we'll see the other members kind of use their own personal influences now that MP's influential personality is gone, and that means more JP influences (Howe, Vai, etc), more JR influences (classic prog) and who knows, even JLB wailing.

[tgstk2]

^i think your right..but i am not happy with that...

[theusualmadness]

I think the reason why there are people who think that DT will  be less metal is because MP was (if i'm correct) the only one who actually said he liked metal (as dozen of other genre's), naming metal bands.

I think when DT played metallica's MOP in its entirely JP or JR somewhere said he never heard teh record before!!....
JP is not listening to Metal much (years ago i dont know if this is still the same)...but not listening doesn't mean you dont like to play/make it.

i think with MM in the band there's even more metal in DT than there ever was. (check out the drumming on the album "metal" from annihiliator). now that's some freaking metal drumming!

Yes i love MP as a drummer, but his metal drumming skills are so-so (his blastbeat was ridicilous!)

JP has said time and time again he has a passion for heavy music. Dream Theater has always been metal.

[King Postwhore]

DT has always had metal in their music but the can lean toward the melodic in the past.  That's why I liked TCOT so much.  It had a great mix of both.

[ZirconBlue]

They didn't become more metal over time, they just switched their influences from classic power metal and prog metal to more nu metal and modern metal styles and stuff recently, losing some originality along the way. I think SFAM-SDOIT is the period where we heard the actual "DT sound" on its own. Then we got albums were people literally recognized the influences from Tool, Muse, U2, Meshuggah, etc. It's less melodic nowadays with more riffing.

Tool reference in Home?
Tool and Rush references in The Great Debate?

They've always worn their influences on their sleeve, it's just that as MP discovered new music you'd hear those new influences pop up.  "Inspiration Corner" didn't help.

[ReaPsTA]

Wtf at Wither being "metal" and not ballad.

It was a nice idea but you seem to have skewed the results with some very unusual choices.

I only used "ballad" for songs that I literally couldn't think of anything else for.  I have no idea why I put ballad for Voices except that I was falling asleep as I made it.

[lithium112]

They didn't become more metal over time, they just switched their influences from classic power metal and prog metal to more nu metal and modern metal styles and stuff recently, losing some originality along the way.

I don't really like arguments over the metal sub-genre labeling, but I don't think DT were ever power metal and I don't hear any nu metal in their recent stuff either.

[bosk1]

They didn't become more metal over time, they just switched their influences from classic power metal and prog metal to more nu metal and modern metal styles and stuff recently, losing some originality along the way.

I don't really like arguments over the metal sub-genre labeling, but I don't think DT were ever power metal and I don't hear any nu metal in their recent stuff either.

This.

[hefdaddy42]

It depends on what you mean by "recent."  I think there was a definite nu-metal influence with Train of Thought, but nothing I can remember in the last couple of albums.

[darkshade]

It depends on what you mean by "recent."  I think there was a definite nu-metal influence with Train of Thought, but nothing I can remember in the last couple of albums.

Right, ToT is all over the nu-metal thing. SC and BC&SL is more about Opeth-inspired death metal, modern metal (Trivium and the sort), etc, but they make it their own. The last 2 tracks on BC&SL completely throw that away, and that's why I love TBoT and TCoT!