My Mike Portnoy Conundrum

[tjanuranus]

MP has always been my favorite drummer. So when he decided he wanted an indefinite break, or 5 year or whatever and it led to him leaving i, like most people on here wasn't happy about it. I've been pissed about MP "breaking up the party" so to speak. So i've expressed my dislike for him as of late.

But I started listening to Scenes again. And God damn that guy is an awesome drummer. His drum work on that album is INCREDIBLE. There are other drummers who are faster, etc... But his creativity and "coolness" to his drum parts is top notch to me. Then I was listening to Octavarium today and had the same reaction. DAMN he's awesome! Then i started realizing the drums are going to sound different. I LOVE the way his drums sound. I HATE the way Mangini's drums sound on EOP. I know they are going to sound different on the new record but it made me kind of realize the things i've always loved about MP.

From now on, I'm done with my frustration and I hope MP can start a new band and be successful because he deserves it. Also i hope Mangini can truly fill MP's shoes as far as creativity. I have faith... we'll see! Mangini for the win.

[Perpetual Change]

Absolute adoration conflicting with judgmental fanboi rage? Hey, that sounds like 90 percent of the Dream Theater fans on the internet!  

But I hear you, man. I have always had a hard time reconciling the totally awesome dude I saw play with DT and Transatlantic live with the one who sometimes yells at his fans online and often comes across as more than a little bit self-absorbed and self-serving. It doesn't help that Mike seems to shove fans who are even slightly critical of him or his projects into the "full blown haters" category.

I wouldn't worry about Mangini's drum parts on Elements of Persuasion, though. That was a relatively low-budget affair where Mangini was given literally one work day in a study to record real drums over whatever they'd already given him. He was a studio-musician there, just playing what he was told, nothing more and nothing less. And it should go without saying that the production values of the new Dream Theater record will be words better than EoP or any of the MM albums.

It WILL sound a lot different, though. Mike Portnoy is so distinct; I'd forget he was featured on the Testimony 2 and as soon as the drums kicked it, I immediately remembered that it was Mike behind the kit because his style really is that unmistakable. I don't know if Mangini's sound will be as distinct. He plays a bit behind the beat, or so the guys from DT have said. Mike played a bit ahead of it. That alone will change A LOT about how Dream Theater records sound.

[Silent Man]

MP has always been my favorite drummer. So when he decided he wanted an indefinite break, or 5 year or whatever and it led to him leaving i, like most people on here wasn't happy about it. I've been pissed about MP "breaking up the party" so to speak. So i've expressed my dislike for him as of late.

But I started listening to Scenes again. And God damn that guy is an awesome drummer. His drum work on that album is INCREDIBLE. There are other drummers who are faster, etc... But his creativity and "coolness" to his drum parts is top notch to me. Then I was listening to Octavarium today and had the same reaction. DAMN he's awesome! Then i started realizing the drums are going to sound different. I LOVE the way his drums sound. I HATE the way Mangini's drums sound on EOP. I know they are going to sound different on the new record but it made me kind of realize the things i've always loved about MP.

From now on, I'm done with my frustration and I hope MP can start a new band and be successful because he deserves it. Also i hope Mangini can truly fill MP's shoes as far as creativity. I have faith... we'll see! Mangini for the win.

I hear you. Even after listening for years (and I've been listening since the release of I&W), I still hear something new about his drumming. At first, it's brutal and hard (as you would expect from a hardrock band), but suddenly you might think it's actually silky smooth and over all, sooo confident. And he's one of the drummers that you recognize in a blind test. From my years of listening to different drummers, I can tell you only a few had this characteristic: Keith Moon, Ginger Baker, Bill Bruford, Phil Collins, Jon Hiseman. (some of you might have a few more names)

That is SO special. If you think about it, it must be very unique to express yourself different than the rest behind a drumkit. Of course, there are many, many more great  drummers out there - but most of them do things that are not so special compared to anyone else.

This is all IMO of course.

[IronEarthTheater]

This will probably betray my lack of knowledge of music theory, but what does it mean "behind the beat" or "ahead of the beat?"  Wouldn't that make it off-beat?  Obviously not, because they are world-class drummers, but can someone please explain?

[Silent Man]

This will probably betray my lack of knowledge of music theory, but what does it mean "behind the beat" or "ahead of the beat?"  Wouldn't that make it off-beat?  Obviously not, because they are world-class drummers, but can someone please explain?

To my understanding, it means something like a microsecond ahead or behind, to accentuate a certain groove. You can draw a parallel to classical music where the soloist often tunes to a very fine degree of higher pitch to distinguish his instrument from the orchestra. I believe MP is often 'ahead' in certain parts to make the groove 'alive'. Sorry, can't find better words at the moment 

[IronEarthTheater]

This will probably betray my lack of knowledge of music theory, but what does it mean "behind the beat" or "ahead of the beat?"  Wouldn't that make it off-beat?  Obviously not, because they are world-class drummers, but can someone please explain?

To my understanding, it means something like a microsecond ahead or behind, to accentuate a certain groove. You can draw a parallel to classical music where the soloist often tunes to a very fine degree of higher pitch to distinguish his instrument from the orchestra. I believe MP is often 'ahead' in certain parts to make the groove 'alive'. Sorry, can't find better words at the moment 

Thanks, that makes sense.  I figured it was something like that but I didn't know why.  And wait, the Silent Man couldn't find better words...   

[JediKnight1969]

Despite the heartache, no one can deny his talent. His drumming is not just technically great but also tasteful, which is not a minor issue.

[SystematicThought]

I will miss his playing despite what another guy on another forum thinks. There were just many factors that will make me not miss him. I just hate when I get the "Never Enough" card played on me because of my views on MP.

I will eagerly await anything that he is working on and will buy it on release date because I will miss his playing and character he brought to the stage

[IronEarthTheater]

I also have mixed feelings, because I have always like Portnoy and will miss his presence, etc.  However, I am excited about Mangini and what he brings, and I have never been more excited about Dream Theater.  Given what happened, DT made exactly the right call, and are probably even better off.  That being said, I would feel better if I felt that it worked out better for Portnoy also (like if he had the permanent gig w/A7X).  I can't help but think he had a mid-life crisis, lost that which he most loved, and now is SOL.  Sure, he'll land on his feet and there are much worse things that can happen, but I do feel bad for him.

[emtee]

I'll support him in whatever he does. He's earned that from me. I'll miss him tremendously in DT.

I was a gigging drummer when I&W came out. A long haired thinks-he's-great hair metal guy. And then one
day I heard Pull Me Under. Pffftt. That drumming blew me away. I knew I had to get way better and
change my whole approach. He's impacted me as much as Bonzo and Peart...more actually.

[tgstk2]

MP has been my drumgod for a long long time, i was flabbergasted when I saw his tokyo solo
the attitude, the skill, the metal..and (very important) covering PanterA during his solo gave him a lot of kudo's for me.
he and JP where always my main aim in DT.
- checking the drumparts, the fills etc
- the solo's, the sweeps etc.

looking at mp playing, buying all his dvd's, gave me really good insight  about playing drums and provided me with skills i wouldn't have without em.
I think now MP is "finally free" i wish he would get that metal project started.
so no high vocals,
no keyboards.

anyway i will always respect and admire him for what he has done for DT, from drumming and for me.
so whatever he will do in the future he will always get my thumbs up. 

[Blackfield]

I don't get what it is you say distinguish him from other drummers out there. Ever since SFAM his drumming has been all but inspiring, he's been on default mode. But that's not just MPs drumming that's been on default, it's DTs music. If you listen to drummers like Harrison from Porcupine Tree, now he's engaging. There is alot going on there, he's not just playing along. But then again there is more of a groove to PTs music, I guess more room for a drummer to... act(?).

I mean the blastbeats in nightmare is the real nightmare to remember. That's just wrong.

[tjanuranus]

I have to disagree with that. I've loved his drumming on every album. Prefer his drumming style over anyones. Waiting to her what Mangini can bring to the band.

[Silent Man]

I don't get what it is you say distinguish him from other drummers out there. Ever since SFAM his drumming has been all but inspiring, he's been on default mode. But that's not just MPs drumming that's been on default, it's DTs music. If you listen to drummers like Harrison from Porcupine Tree, now he's engaging. There is alot going on there, he's not just playing along. But then again there is more of a groove to PTs music, I guess more room for a drummer to... act(?).

I mean the blastbeats in nightmare is the real nightmare to remember. That's just wrong.

I think you'll find that many here will disagree with you 

[The Silent Cody]

I don't get what it is you say distinguish him from other drummers out there. Ever since SFAM his drumming has been all but inspiring, he's been on default mode. But that's not just MPs drumming that's been on default, it's DTs music. If you listen to drummers like Harrison from Porcupine Tree, now he's engaging. There is alot going on there, he's not just playing along. But then again there is more of a groove to PTs music, I guess more room for a drummer to... act(?).

I mean the blastbeats in nightmare is the real nightmare to remember. That's just wrong.

I think you'll find that many here will disagree with you 

Disagree #1 

[Lowdz]

for me MP is as musical a drummer as I've ever heard. I don't care if he can blast beat or not as there is much more to him than that. He never seemed to play the same part twice even in repeating sections of songs. One of very few drummers where I would listen to just the drum track, and I bought a few of the drum track dvds from his website and I'm a guitarist.
I love what he did above the call of duty but hate that he banned me from his forum  in the fallout from the split. I lost alot f respect for the man in that episode but he helped create this thing called DT which has been such a big part in my life for 25 years almost so I give him some slack for that.

[tjanuranus]

for me MP is as musical a drummer as I've ever heard. I don't care if he can blast beat or not as there is much more to him than that. He never seemed to play the same part twice even in repeating sections of songs. One of very few drummers where I would listen to just the drum track, and I bought a few of the drum track dvds from his website and I'm a guitarist.
I love what he did above the call of duty but hate that he banned me from his forum  in the fallout from the split. I lost alot f respect for the man in that episode but he helped create this thing called DT which has been such a big part in my life for 25 years almost so I give him some slack for that.

Yeah i got banned too. I was on that forum since day 1 pretty much back in the 90's. I got banned for talking shit about Avenged sevenfold. Which i really don't feel bad about. Fuck them. I hated them before he played with them, TRIED to like them but couldn't. Then when he left DT i got really pissed about it and said some shit about them. Permanent banned. How about this. Fuck them and fuck that forum.

[Blackfield]

I don't care if he can blast beat or not

I'm not complaining about how he executed the blastbeats, just that he did do it. Portnoy was trying so hard to make DT what it was not supposed to be. He made it an experiment where he would spit out all of his influences with no real underlying thought. The Muse song on Octavarium comes to mind here.
I really liked the more toned down Mike in the 90s where he let the music and his drumming do the talking.

Sorry if the english is lacking a bit, I'm a swede.. 

[lateralus88]

I just hate when I get the "Never Enough" card played on me

This sounds like it could be a trap card in Yu-Gi-Oh.

[pain of occupation]

the great debate drums = uninspiring, hey? news to me

[tgstk2]

the drum beat under SOC the first one where he used ride tom and hi hat
still to this day i find this one of the most brutal pieces DT has written..

that riff/drum always sucks me up....it's mind blowing.
starting from 0.40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3c1rrqj_kY

[Metabog]

I agree that his drum parts on SFAM are unreal, but that's a different MP to me. Something happened around SC-BCSL that made me lose that opinion.

Don't post links, I think that's against the rules.

[raygun47]

I too...will certainly miss Mike in the band.  DT, and Mike Portnoy personally, got me into more music than any band I ever listened too.  Porcupine Tree, Opeth, Three...several bands I now dig came from either fans recommendations or from Mike via the site.  And I'm not some kid just coming into music.  I always liked the fact that DT was another avenue into new music...as much as I love the old.

I don't recall ever being banned for saying anything one way or the other.  I did have posts deleted along with the posts of others.  I stopped posting and reading Mike's board mainly because I didn't fit in.  It's his thing.  His guys that run the show...they do what they think is the right thing to do.  I don't have to be there...but I'll miss the musical gems I picked up there.  And hell...I'll head back now and again to look and see what Mike's been getting into.  

I don't go into this new material with any set expectations.  What MM will do here, I believe, will be unique even to him.  He will push himself, and he will deliver.  It won't be Portnoy, but...that's not what we want collectively, and if we did, we don't need to audition 7 world-class drummers to find a clone.  I mean the "royal-we," the fans and the band.

Anyway.  That's what I was thinking.  I've lost my train of thought...so I guess that's it.

[SystematicThought]

I just hate when I get the "Never Enough" card played on me

This sounds like it could be a trap card in Yu-Gi-Oh.

:

[Nighthawkwill7]

Anyway.  That's what I was thinking.  I've lost my Train of Thought...so I guess that's it.

Nugget?

[MetropolisxPt1]

Despite the heartache, no one can deny his talent. His drumming is not just technically great but also tasteful, which is not a minor issue.

Word

[JPX]

I don't get what it is you say distinguish him from other drummers out there. Ever since SFAM his drumming has been all but inspiring, he's been on default mode.

- There's a some inspiring drumming up to and including 6D but I agree with the sentiment.
- He was the only member of DT that didn't actively practice and it showed
- I don't see any real negatives to him leaving DT
- I do see many positives
- I don't think any of his upcoming projects will be that inspiring either

[Metabog]

I don't get what it is you say distinguish him from other drummers out there. Ever since SFAM his drumming has been all but inspiring, he's been on default mode.

- There's a some inspiring drumming up to and including 6D but I agree with the sentiment.
- He was the only member of DT that didn't actively practice and it showed
- I don't see any real negatives to him leaving DT
- I do see many positives
- I don't think any of his upcoming projects will be that inspiring either

Agreed. Not sure what happened. It all started with Octavarium, in my opinion, but you could hear the new "simple" style on ToT a bit as well.

[energythief]

I mean the blastbeats in nightmare is the real nightmare to remember. That's just wrong.

Been wondering this for a while - what exactly is a "blast beat"? (aka "At what point of ANTR can they be heard?")

[tjanuranus]

I mean the blastbeats in nightmare is the real nightmare to remember. That's just wrong.

Been wondering this for a while - what exactly is a "blast beat"? (aka "At what point of ANTR can they be heard?")

Ok when you listen to ANTR and you hear the really annoying drum part toward the end. That's a blast beat.

[Silent Man]

I mean the blastbeats in nightmare is the real nightmare to remember. That's just wrong.

Been wondering this for a while - what exactly is a "blast beat"? (aka "At what point of ANTR can they be heard?")

Ok when you listen to ANTR and you hear the really annoying drum part toward the end. That's a blast beat.

I too wonder what 'blast beat' means...I guess it's hitting the tomtoms twice during the ending of that song? Which he does a few times there...but really, to call it annoying??? I think we're getting really anal about this...however, IMO their last two albums were not that inspired - but not really bad either. I'ts just that we were used to these high standards in the past. I can't really understand why anyone thinks they failed to do anything interesting after SFAM. As I see it, the whole band started to loosen up from the release of SFAM live DVD - and they gave us one classic after another from that time up to and including 8VM. The songs from the latter proved to be as classic DT as I would ever imagine on their Score DVD. And before that SDOIT, with some of the best drumming MP ever did - as earlier mentioned, The Great Debate is a fantastic showcase of inspired work, his drumming on this song appears to me as restless, hunting, jazzy and everything I'd want from a worldclass drummer. And who would deny that ToT is a DT classic? Again, the Budokan DVD has taken more than 1000 spins in my home cinema. I'm still in awe about what they do on this when I watch it today.

I guess that MP started to burn out a bit from SC. His drumming were still technically perfect, but the whole chemistry in the group seemed to go a bit downwards. I don't really think of any of the songs from these two albums as DT classic. Again because we were used to high standards. If they were released as debut albums from a new band, I wouldn't be surprised to see them getting a big fanbase from these alone.

[jerome snail]

I mean the blastbeats in nightmare is the real nightmare to remember. That's just wrong.

Been wondering this for a while - what exactly is a "blast beat"? (aka "At what point of ANTR can they be heard?")

Edit: I think links are forbiden?
14:45 in the song

[raygun47]

Anyway.  That's what I was thinking.  I've lost my Train of Thought...so I guess that's it.

Nugget?

Wow.  I didn't see that until just now.

[JPX]

I too wonder what 'blast beat' means...I guess it's hitting the tomtoms twice during the ending of that song? Which he does a few times there...but really, to call it annoying???

You can find verbal and visual definitions of blast beats in 2 seconds on Wikipedia or YouTube.

"the blast-beat generally comprises a repeated, sixteenth-note figure played at a very fast tempo, and divided uniformly among the kick drum, snare and ride, crash, or hi-hat cymbal"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpVRJyicnjo

[climberboy]

I don't get what it is you say distinguish him from other drummers out there. Ever since SFAM his drumming has been all but inspiring, he's been on default mode.

- There's a some inspiring drumming up to and including 6D but I agree with the sentiment.
- He was the only member of DT that didn't actively practice and it showed
- I don't see any real negatives to him leaving DT
- I do see many positives
- I don't think any of his upcoming projects will be that inspiring either

Agreed. Not sure what happened. It all started with Octavarium, in my opinion, but you could hear the new "simple" style on ToT a bit as well.

whilst i agree that he did seem to be drumming on autopilot for a while, i think that the simplicity of the drumming on BCSL (especially wither, CoT) actually added something interesting to the music