The reason why there wont be another I&W, Awake or Scenes?

[CrimsonSunrise]

The next album has the best chance to come somewhat close to their best albums, since Dream Theater, like most bands, have created their best albums when they have had something to prove, and following the departure of Mike Portnoy, you know they will be eager to prove they can still do it despite the loss one of the founding members.

My thoughts exactly.  I think they will be hungry again for this one.  That makes for a potentially awesome album.  Like others mention, I really don't think albums like 8V and SDOIT are far off quality wise as I&W and Awake.  It's all personal taste in what folks think are the quality albums... I'm with Ariich...I've never been that keen on Scenes.  As a matter of fact, I think bands get one good shot at a stellar concept album.  If that is the case, I think the moment has passed for DT.  Then again... who says it's written in stone that it can't be tried again

[Bone_Daddy]

But as for quality, almost all their albums are better than Scenes

[Dublagent66]

I think this next album has a good chance of being just as good as their early stuff simply because of the line up change.  JLB will be more free with his vocal melodies and others will be contributing more as well.

[Demolition]

As for I&W and Awake, they won't ever be recreated sadly because that style is long gone. Dream Theater really is a progressive band, and I doubt they'll ever write songs that are in the same style as those that are coming on 20 years old now.

As for Scenes, I think they have a chance considering that album has a more modern sound.

I agree.  I&W and Awake are from a different era so don't expect anything like them again.  I would call them the Kevin Moore era.  To me DT's sound from SFAM to present (the JR era) has been a very similar style.  People may disagree on which albums were better or worse but I would think almost everyone would agree there were at least one excellent track on each disc.  I personally enjoy them all from beginning to end because even some of DT's more average work is better than most anything being put out today.  When the new CD comes out, we shall see what kind of influence MP had on the direction of DT's music.  It seems it will be a bigger group effort and I expect no less than excellence.

[elmatto]

They're very different people at different places in life than they were when they wrote I&W and Awake.  Nothing they create now is going to be too much like those albums.  But I think it's possible, albeit unlikely, that they could put out another album of similar *quality*.

-J

I wonder as they get older, will they start singing about liver spots, fiber, and calcium pills?

[Jaffa]

My two cents here are the same two cents I've put on basically every band forum I've ever posted on: No, the band cannot live up to the magic of their early masterpieces.  Because if you believe that SFAM is the band's defining masterpiece (just as an example – substitute I&W or Awake or 6DOIT if you like), then SFAM becomes the way you define a Dream Theater Masterpiece.  So you judge every new album in comparison with SFAM.  Now, let's say the band comes up with a new album that is superbly awesome, but in a completely different style from SFAM.  The SFAM fan is going to say, "Yeah, it's a great album, but it just can't touch the style of SFAM."  Now, let's say they write something in the exact same style as SFAM – THEN the SFAM fan is going to say, "It's pretty good, but it's a damn weak effort to copy a classic."  And there's no other options – either they replicate the style, or they go a different route, and either way the SFAM fan is still going to like SFAM better.

Now, don't get me wrong: whenever a new album comes out, there're always going to be SOME fans that say it tops all previous albums.  With Metallica it's Death Magnetic, with Maiden it's The Final Frontier, with Muse it's The Resistance, and with DT it's currently BCSL – because if you go look at the best album poll, you'll see that at least some people like BCSL best.  But the consensus doesn't usually change much – Metallica fans still think the first four albums are best, Maiden fans still go back to Number of the Beast, Muse fans still talk about Origin of Symmetry and Absolution as untouchable, and here the holy trinity includes I&W, SFAM, and Awake.  

Quality's basically irrelevant to the question, in my opinion.  What matters is, the fans of the new albums will never outweigh the cult followings established on the forums for the classic albums.  So no matter what a band does, the consensus favorites usually won't change.

Of course, that's just my take.  

[/ramble]

[RuRoRul]

My two cents here are the same two cents I've put on basically every band forum I've ever posted on: No, the band cannot live up to the magic of their early masterpieces.  Because if you believe that SFAM is the band's defining masterpiece (just as an example – substitute I&W or Awake or 6DOIT if you like), then SFAM becomes the way you define a Dream Theater Masterpiece.  So you judge every new album in comparison with SFAM.  Now, let's say the band comes up with a new album that is superbly awesome, but in a completely different style from SFAM.  The SFAM fan is going to say, "Yeah, it's a great album, but it just can't touch the style of SFAM."  Now, let's say they write something in the exact same style as SFAM – THEN the SFAM fan is going to say, "It's pretty good, but it's a damn weak effort to copy a classic."  And there's no other options – either they replicate the style, or they go a different route, and either way the SFAM fan is still going to like SFAM better.

Now, don't get me wrong: whenever a new album comes out, there're always going to be SOME fans that say it tops all previous albums.  With Metallica it's Death Magnetic, with Maiden it's The Final Frontier, with Muse it's The Resistance, and with DT it's currently BCSL – because if you go look at the best album poll, you'll see that at least some people like BCSL best.  But the consensus doesn't usually change much – Metallica fans still think the first four albums are best, Maiden fans still go back to Number of the Beast, Muse fans still talk about Origin of Symmetry and Absolution as untouchable, and here the holy trinity includes I&W, SFAM, and Awake.  

Quality's basically irrelevant to the question, in my opinion.  What matters is, the fans of the new albums will never outweigh the cult followings established on the forums for the classic albums.  So no matter what a band does, the consensus favorites usually won't change.

Of course, that's just my take.  

[/ramble]

Quoted for truth.

[Ħ]

I agree that one of the reasons IAW and ACOS are so great is because they spent so long crafting the songs.  But they didn't spend that long on Awake or Scenes.  And while Scenes/IAW might sit at the throne, there are quite a few that could compete with Awake.

[ariich]

^It's their best by consensus, but I personally don't dig it that much. Ranks 8th or 9th for me right now.

That. I don't dislike Scenes at all, it's still very good, I'd probably rate it around 7-8/10. I just find it weaker than all of DT's other albums other than WDADU.

[ZirconBlue]

There will never be another I&W, Awake or SFAM, for me, because I'm not a college kid any more.  Those albums came out at a certain time of my life when my musical tastes were really being defined, and when music had a heightened impact on me.  No matter how good future albums are, they are very unlikely to ever have that kind of impact on me again.  

But, that's OK.  I'm happy with "Very Good" or "Great" albums, even if I never get another "Magical" one like some of those I discovered in the 80s/90s.  

Plus, there are very few bands that can maintain such high levels of greatness for more than 10 years.  In fact, I can't think of any.  To still be able to accomplish "Very Good" or better for over 20 years is pretty awesome.

[Dream Team]

There will never be another I&W, Awake or SFAM, for me, because I'm not a college kid any more.  Those albums came out at a certain time of my life when my musical tastes were really being defined, and when music had a heightened impact on me.  No matter how good future albums are, they are very unlikely to ever have that kind of impact on me again.  

But, that's OK.  I'm happy with "Very Good" or "Great" albums, even if I never get another "Magical" one like some of those I discovered in the 80s/90s.  

Plus, there are very few bands that can maintain such high levels of greatness for more than 10 years.  In fact, I can't think of any.  To still be able to accomplish "Very Good" or better for over 20 years is pretty awesome.

Right, the Beatles are the only band I can think of that were still improving after more than 10 albums (I happen to think Abbey Road is their best which is the last one they recorded).

[TAC]

Now, don't get me wrong: whenever a new album comes out, there're always going to be SOME fans that say it tops all previous albums.  With Metallica it's Death Magnetic, with Maiden it's The Final Frontier, with Muse it's The Resistance, and with DT it's currently BCSL – because if you go look at the best album poll, you'll see that at least some people like BCSL best.  But the consensus doesn't usually change much – Metallica fans still think the first four albums are best, Maiden fans still go back to Number of the Beast, Muse fans still talk about Origin of Symmetry and Absolution as untouchable, and here the holy trinity includes I&W, SFAM, and Awake.  

I agree with this, also there's always more weight it seems given to the album that got you into the band in the first place.

[The Dark Master]

Quite frankly, it would be impossible to re-create I&W because the circumstances under which that album was made were the result of a once-in-a-lifetime confluence of factors.  It was their second album, which means that they were still very young and full of energy and ambition, but simultaneously had the experience of already making a full album to give their songwriting just enough maturity to allow them to fully grow into professional recording artists.  Also, the falling out with Mechanic Records and the lengthy singer search that resulted from Charlie's dismissal meant that the band had an unusually long period of time in which to compose songs, then hand pick the strongest tracks and refine them to perfection (They wrapped up WDADU in august of 88, and started writing new material pretty much right after concluding the recording of that album.  They started recording I&W in October of 91, giving them over three years to write and record demos for the upcoming album; longer then they have spent writing any other album, even FII).  Also, based on what I have read/heard from members of the band, it seems that Kevin Moore was more involved in the making of I&W then any other DT album, which explains why Images has such a balance of melodic, progressive and metal elements that the band was never able to recapture.  Even on Awake, Kevin was drifting away from the band on both a musical and personal level, so his input on that album was significantly less then it was on I&W (and what he did contribute was radically different they his earlier works).  The time they spent making that record, together with that perfect balance of youth and maturity in their songwriting, and the impact of an enthusiastic KM, ensured that I&W would become something extra special, and those sorts of conditions will never be repeated.

Much like with I&W, Awake can never be recreated because the conditions that created that album can never be repeated.  Success will never taste as fresh again to Dream Theater as it did with Images, so the band will never again go through dealing with suddenly becoming famous and traveling the world for the first time; all the experiences of which provided the inspiration for the material on Awake.  Likewise, no Dream Theater album will ever again have the impact that I&W did on the wider world of music (even if it were to outsell I&W), so the band will never find themselves under the same amount of pressure to repeat the trick, as they did back in 93/94.  And just as Moore's enthusiasm helped define the sound of I&W, his sense of disenchantment and his increasing creative and personal distance from his band mates deeply affected the sound and lyrical themes on Awake (and not just his contributions; the other members were also feeling the distance between Kevin and themselves, and it affected their writing as well).  Much like with Images, the conditions that created Awake were once in a lifetime circumstances that can never, and will never, be repeated.

There were three things that made SFAM special; it was a concept album, it was the first album with Jordan Rudess, and the band felt the need to prove themselves to their label and their fans after the fall out from Falling Into Infinity.  There is nothing that would prevent the band from making another concept album, but if they did, it would be DT's second concept album, and therefore would not have the same impact as it's predecessor.  As for the second reason, however, the influx of new blood with Mike Mangini could somewhat recreate the circumstances that were present when Jordan joined the band.  And while no album has divided the fanbase in the same way as FII, it is pretty safe to say that a great many DT fans feel the band has, at the very least, grown complacent over the past decade, and that some sort of artistic kick in the ass is in order.  While I personally love all of Dream Theater's albums, even I will admit that the band had become somewhat predictable musically as of late.  My only guess as to why this would be is because after a decade and six albums with the same lineup and no major career shake-up's, the band simply became a little too comfortable in their niche.  While I certainly did not want Portnoy to leave, there is a part of me that hopes that this will be the spark that forces the band to create something special.  There is a lot riding on DT XI; they have a lot to prove to the people who think Dream Theater will go down the toilet without MP.  That sense of ambition and the balls required to see it through, combined with the change in internal band dynamics with the roster shift, could make DT XI another landmark album in prog-metal history.

[razorsedge]

i think they have it in them.  rudess/petrucci will not run out of ideas. getting a whole batch of really good ones that are coherent together on one album will just be a matter of timing.

i think the key to producing another album with the "feel" of the classics is Portnoy's departure.  the musical ideas were mostly pertrucci/rudess; portnoy heavily influenced how those ideas came together into a package.  in my opinion, structure has been the weakest point of the last several albums; the musical ideas have remained pretty strong, but i think portnoy got lazy (or was on auto pilot or whatever) in the arrangement department and this yielded the general wanting of the fans.

i think whether or not these guys will make another classic is completely dependent on the performance of petrucci/rudess in terms of arrangement. can they make the segues, breaks, transitions and what have yous more musical than they have been these last few albums. 

i dont mean this to bash portnoy...for all i know he may have been the one with the best ideas concerning the structure of the songs.  if that's the case, then no, i don't think the guys will put anything together that fans will throw it in the I&W category. 

[TAC]

Outstanding post!

[E.S.]

An album is a snapshot of who you were at that time. Obviously, these guys have changed, as everyone does. I wouldn't wait for any I&W2.

[Lotion]

This thread kinda missed my point, it's subjective what's the best. For me those tree is not necessarily the best, but most of you think so afaik. My point was if the old writing process with making demos could've made the outcome better.

[emindead]

Quite frankly, it would be impossible to re-create I&W because the circumstances under which that album was made were the result of a once-in-a-lifetime confluence of factors.  It was their second album, which means that they were still very young and full of energy and ambition, but simultaneously had the experience of already making a full album to give their songwriting just enough maturity to allow them to fully grow into professional recording artists.  Also, the falling out with Mechanic Records and the lengthy singer search that resulted from Charlie's dismissal meant that the band had an unusually long period of time in which to compose songs, then hand pick the strongest tracks and refine them to perfection (They wrapped up WDADU in august of 88, and started writing new material pretty much right after concluding the recording of that album.  They started recording I&W in October of 91, giving them over three years to write and record demos for the upcoming album; longer then they have spent writing any other album, even FII).  Also, based on what I have read/heard from members of the band, it seems that Kevin Moore was more involved in the making of I&W then any other DT album, which explains why Images has such a balance of melodic, progressive and metal elements that the band was never able to recapture.  Even on Awake, Kevin was drifting away from the band on both a musical and personal level, so his input on that album was significantly less then it was on I&W (and what he did contribute was radically different they his earlier works).  The time they spent making that record, together with that perfect balance of youth and maturity in their songwriting, and the impact of an enthusiastic KM, ensured that I&W would become something extra special, and those sorts of conditions will never be repeated.

Much like with I&W, Awake can never be recreated because the conditions that created that album can never be repeated.  Success will never taste as fresh again to Dream Theater as it did with Images, so the band will never again go through dealing with suddenly becoming famous and traveling the world for the first time; all the experiences of which provided the inspiration for the material on Awake.  Likewise, no Dream Theater album will ever again have the impact that I&W did on the wider world of music (even if it were to outsell I&W), so the band will never find themselves under the same amount of pressure to repeat the trick, as they did back in 93/94.  And just as Moore's enthusiasm helped define the sound of I&W, his sense of disenchantment and his increasing creative and personal distance from his band mates deeply affected the sound and lyrical themes on Awake (and not just his contributions; the other members were also feeling the distance between Kevin and themselves, and it affected their writing as well).  Much like with Images, the conditions that created Awake were once in a lifetime circumstances that can never, and will never, be repeated.

There were three things that made SFAM special; it was a concept album, it was the first album with Jordan Rudess, and the band felt the need to prove themselves to their label and their fans after the fall out from Falling Into Infinity.  There is nothing that would prevent the band from making another concept album, but if they did, it would be DT's second concept album, and therefore would not have the same impact as it's predecessor.  As for the second reason, however, the influx of new blood with Mike Mangini could somewhat recreate the circumstances that were present when Jordan joined the band.  And while no album has divided the fanbase in the same way as FII, it is pretty safe to say that a great many DT fans feel the band has, at the very least, grown complacent over the past decade, and that some sort of artistic kick in the ass is in order.  While I personally love all of Dream Theater's albums, even I will admit that the band had become somewhat predictable musically as of late.  My only guess as to why this would be is because after a decade and six albums with the same lineup and no major career shake-up's, the band simply became a little too comfortable in their niche.  While I certainly did not want Portnoy to leave, there is a part of me that hopes that this will be the spark that forces the band to create something special.  There is a lot riding on DT XI; they have a lot to prove to the people who think Dream Theater will go down the toilet without MP.  That sense of ambition and the balls required to see it through, combined with the change in internal band dynamics with the roster shift, could make DT XI another landmark album in prog-metal history.

tl;dr

[Ħ]

Quite frankly, it would be impossible to re-create I&W because the circumstances under which that album was made were the result of a once-in-a-lifetime confluence of factors.  It was their second album, which means that they were still very young and full of energy and ambition, but simultaneously had the experience of already making a full album to give their songwriting just enough maturity to allow them to fully grow into professional recording artists.  Also, the falling out with Mechanic Records and the lengthy singer search that resulted from Charlie's dismissal meant that the band had an unusually long period of time in which to compose songs, then hand pick the strongest tracks and refine them to perfection (They wrapped up WDADU in august of 88, and started writing new material pretty much right after concluding the recording of that album.  They started recording I&W in October of 91, giving them over three years to write and record demos for the upcoming album; longer then they have spent writing any other album, even FII).  Also, based on what I have read/heard from members of the band, it seems that Kevin Moore was more involved in the making of I&W then any other DT album, which explains why Images has such a balance of melodic, progressive and metal elements that the band was never able to recapture.  Even on Awake, Kevin was drifting away from the band on both a musical and personal level, so his input on that album was significantly less then it was on I&W (and what he did contribute was radically different they his earlier works).  The time they spent making that record, together with that perfect balance of youth and maturity in their songwriting, and the impact of an enthusiastic KM, ensured that I&W would become something extra special, and those sorts of conditions will never be repeated.

Much like with I&W, Awake can never be recreated because the conditions that created that album can never be repeated.  Success will never taste as fresh again to Dream Theater as it did with Images, so the band will never again go through dealing with suddenly becoming famous and traveling the world for the first time; all the experiences of which provided the inspiration for the material on Awake.  Likewise, no Dream Theater album will ever again have the impact that I&W did on the wider world of music (even if it were to outsell I&W), so the band will never find themselves under the same amount of pressure to repeat the trick, as they did back in 93/94.  And just as Moore's enthusiasm helped define the sound of I&W, his sense of disenchantment and his increasing creative and personal distance from his band mates deeply affected the sound and lyrical themes on Awake (and not just his contributions; the other members were also feeling the distance between Kevin and themselves, and it affected their writing as well).  Much like with Images, the conditions that created Awake were once in a lifetime circumstances that can never, and will never, be repeated.

There were three things that made SFAM special; it was a concept album, it was the first album with Jordan Rudess, and the band felt the need to prove themselves to their label and their fans after the fall out from Falling Into Infinity.  There is nothing that would prevent the band from making another concept album, but if they did, it would be DT's second concept album, and therefore would not have the same impact as it's predecessor.  As for the second reason, however, the influx of new blood with Mike Mangini could somewhat recreate the circumstances that were present when Jordan joined the band.  And while no album has divided the fanbase in the same way as FII, it is pretty safe to say that a great many DT fans feel the band has, at the very least, grown complacent over the past decade, and that some sort of artistic kick in the ass is in order.  While I personally love all of Dream Theater's albums, even I will admit that the band had become somewhat predictable musically as of late.  My only guess as to why this would be is because after a decade and six albums with the same lineup and no major career shake-up's, the band simply became a little too comfortable in their niche.  While I certainly did not want Portnoy to leave, there is a part of me that hopes that this will be the spark that forces the band to create something special.  There is a lot riding on DT XI; they have a lot to prove to the people who think Dream Theater will go down the toilet without MP.  That sense of ambition and the balls required to see it through, combined with the change in internal band dynamics with the roster shift, could make DT XI another landmark album in prog-metal history.

[The Dark Master]

tl;dr

Wow some people are just lazy!     If you don't feel like taking the time to read my post, then don't; no one is holding a gun to your heads, but to criticize me for simply having more to say is immature. 

[razorsedge]

i think that particular image is meant to criticize the delivery of your post, not the length.  apparently, they think you don't break your thoughts into enough paragraphs.  whatever. 

[IdoSC]

First, considering you ARE right and they do take less time writing each song now, it doesn't matter because they are far more professional and experienced than they used to be. For example, I possibly like Octavarium better than ACOS, despite the fact ACOS was written in 6 years. To me, albums like 8VM, ToT, SDOIT or BCSL are not that far behind SFAM, Awake and IAW, despite their lower rank (in my list).

Second, you might be wrong. I vaguely remember reading that they originally wrote I Walk Beside You (or was it The Answer Lies Within?) for Train of Thought, but it didn't "get along" with the other songs in ToT so they delayed it. That's like two years of existence between writing and releasing for a pretty short and modern DT song.

[Elaitch]

Quite frankly, it would be impossible to re-create I&W because the circumstances under which that album was made were the result of a once-in-a-lifetime confluence of factors.  It was their second album, which means that they were still very young and full of energy and ambition, but simultaneously had the experience of already making a full album to give their songwriting just enough maturity to allow them to fully grow into professional recording artists.  Also, the falling out with Mechanic Records and the lengthy singer search that resulted from Charlie's dismissal meant that the band had an unusually long period of time in which to compose songs, then hand pick the strongest tracks and refine them to perfection (They wrapped up WDADU in august of 88, and started writing new material pretty much right after concluding the recording of that album.  They started recording I&W in October of 91, giving them over three years to write and record demos for the upcoming album; longer then they have spent writing any other album, even FII).  Also, based on what I have read/heard from members of the band, it seems that Kevin Moore was more involved in the making of I&W then any other DT album, which explains why Images has such a balance of melodic, progressive and metal elements that the band was never able to recapture.  Even on Awake, Kevin was drifting away from the band on both a musical and personal level, so his input on that album was significantly less then it was on I&W (and what he did contribute was radically different they his earlier works).  The time they spent making that record, together with that perfect balance of youth and maturity in their songwriting, and the impact of an enthusiastic KM, ensured that I&W would become something extra special, and those sorts of conditions will never be repeated.

Much like with I&W, Awake can never be recreated because the conditions that created that album can never be repeated.  Success will never taste as fresh again to Dream Theater as it did with Images, so the band will never again go through dealing with suddenly becoming famous and traveling the world for the first time; all the experiences of which provided the inspiration for the material on Awake.  Likewise, no Dream Theater album will ever again have the impact that I&W did on the wider world of music (even if it were to outsell I&W), so the band will never find themselves under the same amount of pressure to repeat the trick, as they did back in 93/94.  And just as Moore's enthusiasm helped define the sound of I&W, his sense of disenchantment and his increasing creative and personal distance from his band mates deeply affected the sound and lyrical themes on Awake (and not just his contributions; the other members were also feeling the distance between Kevin and themselves, and it affected their writing as well).  Much like with Images, the conditions that created Awake were once in a lifetime circumstances that can never, and will never, be repeated.

There were three things that made SFAM special; it was a concept album, it was the first album with Jordan Rudess, and the band felt the need to prove themselves to their label and their fans after the fall out from Falling Into Infinity.  There is nothing that would prevent the band from making another concept album, but if they did, it would be DT's second concept album, and therefore would not have the same impact as it's predecessor.  As for the second reason, however, the influx of new blood with Mike Mangini could somewhat recreate the circumstances that were present when Jordan joined the band.  And while no album has divided the fanbase in the same way as FII, it is pretty safe to say that a great many DT fans feel the band has, at the very least, grown complacent over the past decade, and that some sort of artistic kick in the ass is in order.  While I personally love all of Dream Theater's albums, even I will admit that the band had become somewhat predictable musically as of late.  My only guess as to why this would be is because after a decade and six albums with the same lineup and no major career shake-up's, the band simply became a little too comfortable in their niche.  While I certainly did not want Portnoy to leave, there is a part of me that hopes that this will be the spark that forces the band to create something special.  There is a lot riding on DT XI; they have a lot to prove to the people who think Dream Theater will go down the toilet without MP.  That sense of ambition and the balls required to see it through, combined with the change in internal band dynamics with the roster shift, could make DT XI another landmark album in prog-metal history.

Amen, bro

/thread

[hefdaddy42]

This thread kinda missed my point, it's subjective what's the best. For me those tree is not necessarily the best, but most of you think so afaik. My point was if the old writing process with making demos could've made the outcome better.

Not demos, in and of themselves.  I mean, they spent roughly 3-4 weeks writing the Awake songs, and demo'd them.  There were only a few real changes made from the demos to the recording of the album.  SFAM wasn't demo'd at all, it was the first of their "write and record simultaneously" albums (granted, they had the Metropolis Part 2 ideas to work with as a blueprint, but that was only 20-25 minutes, and not all of it was used).

No, it was just lightning in a bottle, like every other longtime musical act who had brilliant works of art at one time and now produces albums that don't necessarily compare with their former glories.  I think it DT went back to an older style, it might make their current work a little better than it might have been, but that doesn't mean it will be another I&W.