Will MP still come back?

[bosk1]

We of course know by now that all the drum parts were written by the other band members.

No, we don't know that, and what has actually been said on the subject seems to suggest otherwise.

Will MP return? In my opinion, that probability is very low, and will decrease further if the process of "working things out" continues on its present course.

This, however, I do agree with wholeheartedly.

[Perpetual Change]

Do we actually know for sure that a "process of working things out" is going on?

[phentalmyst]

Do we actually know for sure that a "process of working things out" is going on?

JP said something of the like at the musicradar link.

as far as MM's writing his own parts or not, i just left JR a post on his fb wall asking about. maybe he'll answer?

[phentalmyst]

in case you missed it, here it is again:

Through all that's happened, do you still have a relationship with Mike Portnoy? Do you speak? Are you friends?

Petrucci: "I'd like to think so. We're still working things out between us, but yeah... I hope so."

the reason i personally think this is legally related is because MP has said DT has cut off communication with him. i know it's been a while since he said that, so i could be wrong, but it makes me think JP is talking less about friendship and more about business.

[bosk1]

Do we actually know for sure that a "process of working things out" is going on?

I don't think that has been said directly, but IMO there have been more than enough indirect statements to that effect that it is reasonably likely.

as far as MM's writing his own parts or not, i just left JR a post on his fb wall asking about. maybe he'll answer?

Cool.  Does he respond there often?  I've posted things on his forum from time to time thinking that might be the best way to get a response, but I have rarely if ever gotten a direct response from him.

[phentalmyst]

this is the first time i've tried with him. people say JLB is often responsive. hmmm....

[Dream Team]

Not buying it. None of the other DT members are anywhere good enough at drums to write drums for songs as complex as DT writes. What LIKELY happened is that they put a drum machine track on their demo with the correct time signature and tempo, and MM used that as a framework to build HIS drum parts. I am certain of this until I hear MM himself say that the DT guys WROTE his drum parts for him.

There is no fathomable reason to hire someone as legendary as MM and then stifle his creativity, it would be borderline insanity. Not to mention, the DT guys KNOW that we're all frothing at the mouth to hear a killer performance by MM which would just be held back if he attempted to stay close to what they demoed.

[ReaPsTA]

There is no fathomable reason to hire someone as legendary as MM and then stifle his creativity, it would be borderline insanity. Not to mention, the DT guys KNOW that we're all frothing at the mouth to hear a killer performance by MM which would just be held back if he attempted to stay close to what they demoed.

That's a great point.  Just like Mangini himself has to be undeniable, they know that if the drums on the new album aren't absolutely killer, the fans would be restless.  So why would they risk screwing it up with a drum machine?

[TAC]

Mangini discusses the process in one of his recent interviews. The demos seemed to have included ideas for some of the drum sections and that he worked with JP to bring to life JP's vision, but MM seems to have had enough space to really make his parts his own, no?

Either way, the DT guys have said that MM's drum tracks on the album are incredible, and I'm sure not simply referring to his recreation of the demo drums.

[The Silent Cody]

Not buying it. None of the other DT members are anywhere good enough at drums to write drums for songs as complex as DT writes. What LIKELY happened is that they put a drum machine track on their demo with the correct time signature and tempo, and MM used that as a framework to build HIS drum parts. I am certain of this until I hear MM himself say that the DT guys WROTE his drum parts for him.

There is no fathomable reason to hire someone as legendary as MM and then stifle his creativity, it would be borderline insanity. Not to mention, the DT guys KNOW that we're all frothing at the mouth to hear a killer performance by MM which would just be held back if he attempted to stay close to what they demoed.

That is exactly what I want to write It's just unthinkable that such a mind like MM would have to just stick to parts written by other members... It is not how it should be done.

[ariich]

Quite why anyone would think for a second that the band would write MM's entire drum parts, including fills and everything, is absolutely beyond me. Sure there would probably have been some basic drum machine tracks in there to show the rhythm of the song, and maybe with a little more detail in certain sections, but I'm sorry, that is not "writing his drum parts for him".

[The Silent Cody]

Quite why anyone would think for a second that the band would write MM's entire drum parts, including fills and everything, is absolutely beyond me. Sure there would probably have been some basic drum machine tracks in there to show the rhythm of the song, and maybe with a little more detail in certain sections, but I'm sorry, that is not "writing his drum parts for him".

Exactly, it is showing him how it goes and now he has to put into it his style and abilities. It's obvious like hell for me.

[rumborak]

It doesn't have to be obvious, because MM has said so himself. He got demo tapes from the guys and submitted his ideas of drumming on top.

rumborak

[Major Thirteenth]

It doesn't have to be obvious, because MM has said so himself. He got demo tapes from the guys and submitted his ideas of drumming on top.

rumborak

Exactly. Writing a song means writing the music and the lyrics. Writing the music includes writing the rhythms, and the rhythms include the drums.

Interview quote:

-----------------
Did you do any writing with Mike, or were the songs ready to go when you started recording?
Rudess: "Mike didn't write with us. Basically, we got in the studio and did our thing. We wrote songs and sent them to him. He came in and just nailed his parts.
-----------------

Did he add stuff? Of course. Did he embellish and bring some ideas? Of course. But the stuff was written, and he executed what was written adding his own flair and interpretation.

On the next album, I expect of course that he will actually contribute to the song writing, and will therefore have a much higher degree of authorship over the songs. That is to be expected and looked forward to.

But on this album, the sound, the structure, and the songs are the sole responsibility of the other band members. It could not be more clear than "Mike didn't write with us".

[Adami]

MT, you said Mangini did not write any drums and was just told to play what the other people wrote. That's just not true.


For instance, if I tell a guitar player to solo over the key changes of E to F# to G to A, in 4/4 at 175 BPM, the solo is still written by the guitarist, not the person laying out that framework.

[Major Thirteenth]

MT, you said Mangini did not write any drums and was just told to play what the other people wrote. That's just not true.


For instance, if I tell a guitar player to solo over the key changes of E to F# to G to A, in 4/4 at 175 BPM, the solo is still written by the guitarist, not the person laying out that framework.

A jazz solo over a chord progression is a higher degree of creation than embellishing a rhythm track in a pre-written rock tune. There is very little "writing" for the drummer to do once the song is written. Adding some feel and groove is certainly to be expected, but once the song is written, the drummer playing it does not have a lot of wiggle room.

Oh, and writing the chords of a song is "writing the song". A jazz soloist does not get a writing credit for improvising over the changes and will never be confused with the songwriter. Mike Mangini had little or nothing to do with writing this album.

But the next album will obviously be a different story. This album was written under obviously unusual circumstances, and those circumstances will not be repeated. The next time, Mike will be in the studio and a full member of the creating team. They will not "send him the songs" next time. But this time they did, and that is that.

[ariich]

It doesn't have to be obvious, because MM has said so himself. He got demo tapes from the guys and submitted his ideas of drumming on top.

rumborak

Exactly. Writing a song means writing the music and the lyrics. Writing the music includes writing the rhythms, and the rhythms include the drums.

Interview quote:

-----------------
Did you do any writing with Mike, or were the songs ready to go when you started recording?
Rudess: "Mike didn't write with us. Basically, we got in the studio and did our thing. We wrote songs and sent them to him. He came in and just nailed his parts.
-----------------

Did he add stuff? Of course. Did he embellish and bring some ideas? Of course. But the stuff was written, and he executed what was written adding his own flair and interpretation.

On the next album, I expect of course that he will actually contribute to the song writing, and will therefore have a much higher degree of authorship over the songs. That is to be expected and looked forward to.

But on this album, the sound, the structure, and the songs are the sole responsibility of the other band members. It could not be more clear than "Mike didn't write with us".

We know he didn't compose the songs, but he did write his own parts. You claimed that he didn't write his own parts.

[Major Thirteenth]

It doesn't have to be obvious, because MM has said so himself. He got demo tapes from the guys and submitted his ideas of drumming on top.

rumborak

Exactly. Writing a song means writing the music and the lyrics. Writing the music includes writing the rhythms, and the rhythms include the drums.

Interview quote:

-----------------
Did you do any writing with Mike, or were the songs ready to go when you started recording?
Rudess: "Mike didn't write with us. Basically, we got in the studio and did our thing. We wrote songs and sent them to him. He came in and just nailed his parts.
-----------------

Did he add stuff? Of course. Did he embellish and bring some ideas? Of course. But the stuff was written, and he executed what was written adding his own flair and interpretation.

On the next album, I expect of course that he will actually contribute to the song writing, and will therefore have a much higher degree of authorship over the songs. That is to be expected and looked forward to.

But on this album, the sound, the structure, and the songs are the sole responsibility of the other band members. It could not be more clear than "Mike didn't write with us".

We know he didn't compose the songs, but he did write his own parts. You claimed that he didn't write his own parts.

I did, and he didn't. You can't divorce composing from writing the drum parts. They are integral to each other. Writing the drum parts includes designing the rhythmic structure. He had no part in that, it was already done. Embellishing and personalizing is not writing.

[ariich]

What a strange way to define writing the "part", rather than writing the "song".

[ReaPsTA]

Mangini mentioned in some interview how he took a section of a song with shifting time signatues and played a beat with a continuous time signature over it.  If that isn't altering the feel of a section in a more fundamental way then just playing what you're told, then I don't know what else to say.

Oh, and writing the chords of a song is "writing the song". A jazz soloist does not get a writing credit for improvising over the changes and will never be confused with the songwriter. Mike Mangini had little or nothing to do with writing this album.

Maybe he doesn't get credit officially as a songwriter, but think of it this way:  You know the Guitar solo in Beat it?  Is that a Michael Jackson solo or a Van Halen solo?

Obviously (I think), you'd say it's a Van Halen solo.  So why aren't Mangini's drum parts on DT11 his own drum parts?

[bosk1]

Yeah, we're parsing it pretty thinly.  He "wrote" his drum parts by almost any standard you want to use--at least, that's how it appears from every bit of information that's been released.  Whether or not he gets official songwriting credits (which isn't even the issue here) is irrelevant.  One out of context quote that is simply talking about whether or not he was in studio for the original songwriting sessions is largely immaterial.

[Major Thirteenth]

Mangini mentioned in some interview how he took a section of a song with shifting time signatues and played a beat with a continuous time signature over it.  If that isn't altering the feel of a section in a more fundamental way then just playing what you're told, then I don't know what else to say.

Oh, and writing the chords of a song is "writing the song". A jazz soloist does not get a writing credit for improvising over the changes and will never be confused with the songwriter. Mike Mangini had little or nothing to do with writing this album.

Maybe he doesn't get credit officially as a songwriter, but think of it this way:  You know the Guitar solo in Beat it?  Is that a Michael Jackson solo or a Van Halen solo?

Obviously (I think), you'd say it's a Van Halen solo.  So why aren't Mangini's drum parts on DT11 his own drum parts?

Part of this is philosophical. For me, the guy who designed the architecture of the song and decided on what rhythms go where, and planned the time signatures, meters, changes, etc is the guy who gets credit for writing the drum part. If you want to claim that deciding on exactly which fill or cymbal crash or rim shot would sound good in a phrase that has already been written by others constitutes "writing the drum part", then I would say your opinion of what constitutes writing is different than mine.

When I listen to this next album, I will know that the rhythmic structure and design was the responsibility of John, Jordan, and John. On the next album, Mike will be added to that group. If I am wrong, then on the next album they can e-mail MM the songs again and let him "write" the drum parts. Somehow I do not think it will go down that way.

[Adami]

Portnoy wrote his drum parts around riffs written by Petrucci and Rudess, did Portnoy not write his own drum parts either?

[Jamesman42]

Portnoy wrote his drum parts around riffs written by Petrucci and Rudess, did Portnoy not write his own drum parts either?

No.

[TAC]

From the Drum Magazine article:

DRUM!: Were you involved in writing new Dream Theater songs?Mangini: I was zero involved in it. It's the four of them. This new material is stuff that they've never had the opportunity to do that without a drummer. My involvement is going to be worrying about the drums and backing this band. I have too much work to do, you know? I've been off the stage as a full time job for much too long. I just want to sit on a drum stool. I want to see those orange and magenta lights reflecting off my drums. I want to hear the crowd. I want to play drums – that's what I want to do right now. That's all I want to do. I didn't want to get involved in anything at that time. If I have strengths to offer the band, those will show themselves in time.

DRUM!: Any new songs that were especially difficult?Mangini: The one where I put the most amount of psychotic, two-things-at-the-same-time type of drumming would be track six [still unnamed as of press time]. While multi time signature shifts were going on, I was playing in a time signature that was completely different from those with one limb on one side of my body. And I was really hitting the drums. I'm very proud of it, but they liked it musically. I wouldn't do it just to throw it in. I didn't do it for that reason. I did it because I had a mathematical joy out of it. Oh, my gosh, it would be amazing to play in 7/16 here, but yet it's changing time signatures 18 times or something.

When I got [in the tracking room, guitarist] John Petrucci just bled his soul through mine and into the drums – it wasn't me. I mean, it was me, but he brought out of me this intro to one of the songs and it was actually so hard to come up with the best possible thing with all the choices I had in my mind, that I didn't do it all by myself. I did it with John Petrucci, so it was really something. So that kind of established the protocol for our relationship, which was wonderful. I was just like, "Man, I don't want this to be about me. I'm not happy with my [input] alone. Sometimes I can't get away from me. I want this to be about us."

[jmbeat]

It really seems ridiculous to me that there is even a discussion on whether MM wrote or perfomed his parts, It has been clearly stated that he was sent a demo and then played HIS PARTS.....HIS parts. Can we not disect this to the point where MM has a chance of winning us all over.
Again.. He was sent demos, and then he played the drums, duh he played his own drum parts

[phentalmyst]

now is the point where i don't agree with MT. as a drummer, just because you are given a time signature and accents, it doesn't mean you don't have wiggle room. you have TONS. i have been in many situations where i've had WAY too many choices for a drum pattern....none of which any members of the band gave me ideas for. they had the guitar riffs and i put drum riffs (that i wrote) to them. i still do that to this day. a guitarist may say "try a boom, chuck, boom boom chuck" pattern, and i'll start with that...but that doesn't mean i won't replace the downbeat hats with syncopated octoban hits and polyrhythms on a tambourine. if you don't think that changes the vibe of a tune, you're sadly mistaken.

[Adami]

now is the point where i don't agree with MT. as a drummer, just because you are given a time signature and accents, it doesn't mean you don't have wiggle room. you have TONS. i have been in many situations where i've had WAY too many choices for a drum pattern....none of which any members of the band gave me ideas for. they had the guitar riffs and i put drum riffs (that i wrote) to them. i still do that to this day. a guitarist may say "try a boom, chuck, boom boom chuck" pattern, and i'll start with that...but that doesn't mean i won't replace the downbeat hats with syncopated octoban hits and polyrhythms on a tambourine. if you don't think that changes the vibe of a tune, you're sadly mistaken.

Exactly. When I joined my current band, they already had 4 songs recorded with another drummer. Songs and drums were written and even recorded. But I changed them to the point that the songs remained the same but the drums are so different that I have to go in and re-record all of the songs on drums because the original parts and my parts are hardly similar at times. I didn't change the time signatures or the down/up beats, I changed the drum parts.

[Major Thirteenth]

Portnoy wrote his drum parts around riffs written by Petrucci and Rudess, did Portnoy not write his own drum parts either?

This is my last post on this because everything has been said and all positions are known. I'm very strict on what I define as writing with respect to music. The writer is the architect, the designer, the creator. If Petrucci and Rudess designed the rhythmic architecture of a song, then to me they "wrote" the drum parts. Although the drummer can play around, interpret, and affect the vibe or groove, the ultimate responsibility for the sound lies with the writer. The writer is the inventor. When MM says with respect to writing that his input was zero, I take him at his word. He apparently defines writing the same as I do, and gives himself the same amount of writing credit that I do. That is why he will not have a writing credit on the new album, only the writers get that credit, and writing is a strictly defined skill and application. On the next album, things will be different. In a sense, the next album will be the first album with the new lineup, as writing inputs will probably come from 5 members instead of 4.

[Adami]

Portnoy wrote his drum parts around riffs written by Petrucci and Rudess, did Portnoy not write his own drum parts either?

This is my last post on this because everything has been said and all positions are known. I'm very strict on what I define as writing with respect to music. The writer is the architect, the designer, the creator. If Petrucci and Rudess designed the rhythmic architecture of a song, then to me they "wrote" the drum parts. Although the drummer can play around, interpret, and affect the vibe or groove, the ultimate responsibility for the sound lies with the writer. The writer is the inventor. When MM says with respect to writing that his input was zero, I take him at his word. He apparently defines writing the same as I do, and gives himself the same amount of writing credit that I do. That is why he will not have a writing credit on the new album, only the writers get that credit, and writing is a strictly defined skill and application. On the next album, things will be different. In a sense, the next album will be the first album with the new lineup, as writing inputs will probably come from 5 members instead of 4.

It seems that your argument has changed from "They will write the drums with a drum machine and Mangini will play what they tell him to play" to "He won't be credited as a writer of the album".

Your second point is correct, although unrelated to your first point. But it's ok, since the point you're currently arguing is indeed correct, then it's all good.

[phentalmyst]

writing and getting credit for a song is different from writing drum parts. alex and geddy get the credit for writing the music in rush. do you think they'd even hint at saying they wrote neil's parts? neil way not get credit on the liner notes or with publishing rights in regards to the music, but that's not the point.

[WildeSilas]

Anyone who thinks it's even possible for someone other than the drummer to "write the drum parts" in prog music has very little understanding of how music is written and recorded IMO. A guitar player, even one as talented as JP couldn't even produce drum patterns complex or interesting enough on a drum machine to fit DT's music. That's going to eventually be done "on the ground" by the drummer who will use the click track or basic drum machine demo as a guide to understand time changes and phrases, but ultimately the drummer himself would have to determine what exactly to play for the real tracks. Maybe it's not technically "writing"the song, but it's just about as close to contributing as non-songwriting drummers ever get, and it's a considerably huge contribution to the creation process.

I still don't understand why it's "obvious" that MM will write on the next album when JM and JLB haven't even contributed very much on the last 2-3. Why is it "obvious?"

[Major Thirteenth]

Anyone who thinks it's even possible for someone other than the drummer to "write the drum parts" in prog music has very little understanding of how music is written and recorded IMO. A guitar player, even one as talented as JP couldn't even produce drum patterns complex or interesting enough on a drum machine to fit DT's music. That's going to eventually be done "on the ground" by the drummer who will use the click track or basic drum machine demo as a guide to understand time changes and phrases, but ultimately the drummer himself would have to determine what exactly to play for the real tracks. Maybe it's not technically "writing"the song, but it's just about as close to contributing as non-songwriting drummers ever get, and it's a considerably huge contribution to the creation process.

I still don't understand why it's "obvious" that MM will write on the next album when JM and JLB haven't even contributed very much on the last 2-3. Why is it "obvious?"

It is my opinion that the band thinks highly of his writing chops, so it seems obvious that his role in that department will naturally evolve over time. JM is out of his shell now that the chemistry has improved, therefore he will be writing more also IMO, and it has been reported as such even on this effort. JLB has never had a huge role in writing DT songs, I don't expect that to change. I believe he kind of gets in the way at times in the studio. Sort of a "too many cooks" situation I have heard.

[Knguro]

MT, you said Mangini did not write any drums and was just told to play what the other people wrote. That's just not true.


For instance, if I tell a guitar player to solo over the key changes of E to F# to G to A, in 4/4 at 175 BPM, the solo is still written by the guitarist, not the person laying out that framework.

wow best answer ever!, just belive Adami he simple knows what he´s talking about. 

[Adami]

MT, you said Mangini did not write any drums and was just told to play what the other people wrote. That's just not true.


For instance, if I tell a guitar player to solo over the key changes of E to F# to G to A, in 4/4 at 175 BPM, the solo is still written by the guitarist, not the person laying out that framework.

wow best answer ever!, just belive Adami he simple knows what he´s talking about. 

I suspect sarcasm.