Which DT do you prefer?

[rumborak]

Yeah, I think 6DOIT -> ToT actually make the better cut-off point. I remember when ToT came out and everybody thought this was just an "experiment" and surely they would return to their old style once they got the metal out of their system.

rumborak

[Rina]

I'm gonna say 20th... Both are great, but the 20th is just a little greater.

[robwebster]

Yeah, I think 6DOIT -> ToT actually make the better cut-off point. I remember when ToT came out and everybody thought this was just an "experiment" and surely they would return to their old style once they got the metal out of their system.

rumborak

In fairness, ToT was an experiment and the following albums did sound nothing like that. ToT and Octavarium have about as much in common with each other as chalk and the hanging gardens of babylon.

There are elements of the heavier metal end of the spectrum that have been recurring slightly more heavily since, but you can trace them back as far as the Glass Prison. I'd argue there's very little even on an album like Systematic Chaos that's much heavier than, say, War Inside My Head. The Dark Eternal Night, and you could make a case for Constant Motion, but not much else besides.

[Jamesman42]

^Yes. Also seems like people are mixing up the heavy with the darker side of DT (read: atmosphere). SC sounds very dark. BC&SL also has some of that.

[darkshade]

i also agree. I never thought ToT was dark, just real heavy. They still had the LTE energy in them (also found in SFAM and SDoIT obviously). It's after ToT when they got a little darker (and a little more abrasive on the last 2 albums)

[yorost]

Yeah, I think 6DOIT -> ToT actually make the better cut-off point. I remember when ToT came out and everybody thought this was just an "experiment" and surely they would return to their old style once they got the metal out of their system.

rumborak

In fairness, ToT was an experiment and the following albums did sound nothing like that. ToT and Octavarium have about as much in common with each other as chalk and the hanging gardens of babylon.

This,  Heck, when Octavarium was released there were people upset at what a divergence it was from Train of Thought.

[Silver Tears]

Definitely 20th for me.

I still love the newer stuff too of course 

[robwebster]

i also agree. I never thought ToT was dark, just real heavy. They still had the LTE energy in them (also found in SFAM and SDoIT obviously). It's after ToT when they got a little darker (and a little more abrasive on the last 2 albums)

While I very much like what you're saying, I'd almost argue the exact opposite. Train of Thought is one of the few instances of Dream Theater actually going through with playing the dark card.

Dream Theater, as people, have fairly sunny dispositions, and it's very rare that they do anything truly grim. And they never have been a particularly dark band. As early as Images and Words, they were even tackling subjects as gloomy as the AIDS epidemic with a very life-affirming sense of optimism - "Through nature's inflexible grace, we're learning to live," "Live another day, climb a little higher, find another reason to say," etc. etc.

Recently, they've focused on the heavier elements of music, but it never gets sincerely bleak. Systematic Chaos is a good example. The Dark Eternal Night, while stompy and relentless, is ultimately a fun bit of fluff - yes, there's villainy, yes, there's evil, but it's a caricature of evil rather than a real, tangible evil. It's based on Nyarlathotep, not Fred West. (And, on that note, Nyarlathotep would've been a way better name than TDEN.) Repentance is the closest SC gets to flirting with actual darkness - being as it is a love letter to Porcupine Tree and Opeth, both of whom are genuinely in the business of gloom - but even then, the bleakness gives way to hope. "Just when you're through hanging on, you're saved." Same applies to songs like The Glass Prison and Voices on the other side of the discography - which, while they deal with bleak odysseys, both end on a high note. (Though the narrative of Voices isn't resolved until the Silent Man, it is, nonetheless, resolved) The Count of Tuscany does a similar thing through a surrealist lens, and A Nightmare to Remember - musically taking its cues from gothic horror (which again, is essentially campfire stories - it's Hammer Horror, rather than horror) - ends on a bright note. The band are practically allergic to pessimism. They'll probe the depths of sorrow, sure, but there's generally a happy ending.

Even when dealing with subjects like death and loss and mental health, they tend to reflect on the good rather than dwell on the grief. Occasionally, they'll throw in a curveball. The twist at the end of Scenes from a Memory is a good example, where they take a voyage of discovery and end it with a murder, but SfaM is a little frothy and vaudeville. It's melodrama, rather than drama, and it's never sincere in the way that songs like The Glass Prison or The Best of Times are. Constant Motion, too, you could argue as a dark song, but Mike would happily admit that his OCD's a double-edged blade, and while it can make his life hellish at times, it also showers him with motivation and joie de vivre.

There are brief smatterings of true, sincere darkness throughout their discography - Sacrificed Sons channels the chaos of terrorism in a genuinely harrowing way (although, admittedly, three and a half years after the event), and Space-Dye Vest is an uncharacteristically nihilistic way to end an album (which is probably both the reason that so many people like it and the reason that so many hate it). They're generally the exceptions, though. Train of Thought is an album full of exceptions. It's dark heavy, as opposed to just heavy-heavy. Stream of Consciousness is the closest the album gets to a moment of triumph, but other than that you've got big subjects like religious manipulation, parental neglect, and I think potentially their most harrowing song in the form of Vacant - which is a song about a real-life experience James had when he feared that he was going to witness his own daughter dying. This is seriously dolorous stuff. As I Am is a little more teenage and petulant than the rest of the album, and Endless Sacrifice flirts with optimism towards the end, but This Dying Soul on the other hand is the bleakest moment of the twelve-step suite and seems to deal with the hostile effects of the addiction.



Train of Thought is a very optimistic band writing a very pessimistic album. They hadn't written anything much like it before, and they haven't written anything like it since. If anything, Octavarium is the next-closest, but it's hard to say that with a straight face when songs like The Answer Lies Within, These Walls and I Walk Beside You are sitting comfortably upon it. Same goes for Awake - The Mirror, Lie, and Caught in a Web are all fairly dark, but 6:00 is about making a change and doing what's right for you, The Silent Man is unerringly positive, Lifting Shadows off a Dream is romantic to a tee... there's a lot of light and shade.

ToT is definitely an exception. It's a very weird album for DT, and doesn't closely match anything that came before nor after. Not even close.

[reo73]

20th for me.  I&W's and Awake are both a masterpiece and while FII has some real clunkers it also has a few of my all time favs like ToT, LITS, NM, and HK.   

[PraXis]

I have always been a metal head. I first heard DT when a mutual friend was talking about JP.. I was interested and he let me borrow SDOT so the first DT song I heard was Glass Prison and was hooked. I like all of DT's discography, but because I'm a huge metal head, I prefer the newer, shreddy DT.

[Odysseus]

There are peaks and troughs throughout for me.... can't really make a decision....

[skydivingninja]

I like the 21st century lineup, because 6DoiT, 8VM, and BC&SL were good, but 20th century has their best songs, as well as two of their best albums (I&W and SFAM).  So I went with 20th century.

[jcmistat]

I thought this was going to be harder but when I thought about it 21st century is easily my choice. I knew most people would choose 20th though. Nothing like being in the minority.

[Killer123™]

oh god...

why isnt there a 50/50 option?

[LTE3]

20th. Only stuff I really care for from the 21st is 6DOIT (a masterpiece) and a few scattered songs from ToT and BC&SL.

If Six Degrees were in the 20th it would not even be close, but I still give the nod to the 20th.

[JediKnight1969]

I hope "the rat" is paying attention to this thread.

[ricky]

Ok, here's the scoop.

I haven't looked at the results of the poll yet, but I can guarantee that the winner is the "WDADU to SFAM" option, and i think you knew it was going to be the winner when you made the poll. Here's why.

WDADU - SFAM are the albums that shaped the so-called "DT sound." Granted, it can be difficult to discern a "DT sound" due to the variety of music they have produced through the years, but it's true that those first albums helped shape how we view DT. Everything that came after that was a comparison to those albums, whether the comparisons are good, or bad. They are the basis as to what we compare new DT material to, whether we consciously admit it or not.

Images, Awake, and SFAM (which will after today be referred as the "DT Trinity") are universally regarded as quintessential DT albums. No album since SFAM (minus 6 Degress) has been referred to as even in the same league as those three. It's not an opinion, I'm just saying what I've heard others say. Isn't it a coincidence, however, that those three come in the early half of DT's years? It seems 8v was the cutoff point. Not that it was bad, but it just is, for whatever reason.   

Anyways, the reason why the earlier half wins is that it's because we were subjected to first.

If I'm wrong, prove me wrong, but be prepared to argue (respectfully) why.

[Rambeaux]

Six Degrees is my favorite album, but for the most part, the 20th century had better and more cohesive songwriting. Sure, the band got more complex and "shreddy" as time went on, but it'd almost be a stretch to imagine current-day DT writing songs like Lines in the Sand, The Silent Man, 6:00, Surrounded, or even Learning to Live. Or heck, even Blind Faith if you wanna throw some 21st century stuff in there.

As much as I like Portnoy (and I adore him on his side projects), I hope his departure leads to DT writing more rock and jam-oriented stuff than trying to go more MEH-TULL like they have been. Their greatest strength has always been the more experimental rock sections of their music (at least in my opinion), and I hope they go back to it.

[ricky]

Six Degrees is my favorite album, but for the most part, the 20th century had better and more cohesive songwriting. Sure, the band got more complex and "shreddy" as time went on, but it'd almost be a stretch to imagine current-day DT writing songs like Lines in the Sand, The Silent Man, 6:00, Surrounded, or even Learning to Live. Or heck, even Blind Faith if you wanna throw some 21st century stuff in there.

As much as I like Portnoy (and I adore him on his side projects), I hope his departure leads to DT writing more rock and jam-oriented stuff than trying to go more MEH-TULL like they have been. Their greatest strength has always been the more experimental rock sections of their music (at least in my opinion), and I hope they go back to it.

I politely disagree. I believe that "trinity" DT had better songwriting. Here's why...

In order to compare new DT to old DT, you had to have something to compare to in the first place. IE trinity DT to other DT. That was the basis for your comparisons. I agree with you as far as you say DT's experimental aspect led to their interest, but I do not believe that what they did in the 20th century was better.

Better is subjective. What one guy thinks is better is simply an opinion, you cannot measure it. However, you can measure the general consensus, and the general consensus is that trinity DT > 20th centurty DT (minus 6 degrees).     

[hefdaddy42]

Anyways, the reason why the earlier half wins is that it's because we were subjected to first.

This is not true.

If I'm wrong, prove me wrong, but be prepared to argue (respectfully) why.

No one is going to "prove" you wrong, so posts like this from you are really getting annoying.

Having said that, people that like the older stuff better don't just like it because they were subjected to it first.  They like it better because they like it better, for aesthetic reasons.  Besides, even if they did, that wouldn't account for the majority of our current group of users, who didn't start listening at the beginning, but rather became fans with Train of Thought or Systematic Chaos.  Those fans were subjected to those newer albums first, not the older stuff.  However, many (but not all) of them have still reached the conclusion that the older stuff is better.

[toro]

20th ALL DAY ERRYDAY