SFAM vs. Operation: Mindcrime

[Lowdz]

The best song on OM is Eyes of a Stranger. 3rd to last song. It doesn't get weaker.

I didn't say the songs get weaker, I said the story did. EOAS is a great song, as is Breaking the Silence and IDBIL and the whole goddamned album.

[Tomislav95]

Hard to choice but SFAM.Both albums are masterpieces and I love them but SFAM is something special for me

[Zantera]

I heard Operation: Mindcrime some weeks back, and man I thought it was horrible.
Probably because I don't listen much to metal anymore, but there aren't really much prog over it either.

[Kosmo]

I heard Operation: Mindcrime some weeks back, and man I thought it was horrible.
Probably because I don't listen much to metal anymore, but there aren't really much prog over it either.

You have exactly five seconds to leave before i go and get the gun...1...2...

Also i think i should finally vote. But wich one. 

[Zantera]

What can I say? It sounded like generic 80's metal, but I don't really get why its called progressive? Sure there was one song in the middle of the album that was kinda long and had some string-arrangements or something, but apart from that it wasn't much.

[Phantasmatron]

The best song on OM is Eyes of a Stranger. 3rd to last song. It doesn't get weaker.

Last I checked, Eyes of a Stranger is the last song on O:M. The bonus tracks on the remaster don't count...

Oh good, I'm not the only one who noticed this. 

[Stoneyman]

How about option 3 - Nostradamus?? LOL

Seriously, I remember buying Mindcrime the week it was released and because I was 16 and totally into Metal at the time, it sticks in my soul and it can never be overshadowed.  However, Scenes is so overwhelmingly awesome that they are kinda like 1A (OM) and 1B (Scenes).

They are the concept records that all others should be measured by.

This poll is kinda like asking "Who do you love more, your mom or your dad?"

Both are woven into my soul.

[eric42434224]

I heard Operation: Mindcrime some weeks back, and man I thought it was horrible.
Probably because I don't listen much to metal anymore, but there aren't really much prog over it either.

You have exactly five seconds to leave before i go and get the gun...1...2...

What can I say? It sounded like generic 80's metal, but I don't really get why its called progressive? Sure there was one song in the middle of the album that was kinda long and had some string-arrangements or something, but apart from that it wasn't much.

3....4.....

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

What can I say? It sounded like generic 80's metal, but I don't really get why its called progressive? Sure there was one song in the middle of the album that was kinda long and had some string-arrangements or something, but apart from that it wasn't much.

My thoughts exactly.

[rmp0012002]

I never understood classifying QR as a prog band as they don't consider themselves a prog band and neither do their fans.

[jsem]

They have prog tendencies at most.

[tumbok]

early QR was absolutely prog metal since they applied chord progressions and odd time signatures

[STEVETHEATER]

2 perfect concept albums I love to death. But Scenes wins this one.

[bout to crash]

::sigh::

This is really fucking hard, harder than I expected... but SFAM is just a little more significant personally like some have said about times in their lives, etc., so I'm gonna go with that.

[rmp0012002]

early QR was absolutely prog metal since they applied chord progressions and odd time signatures

While they did use some Pink Floyd style chord progressions and occassional odd time signatures they're early sound was mostly based around Iron Maiden and British rock/metal. Prog to me is a more of an instrumental style of music a la DT while QR was more traditional song based leaning more on the vocals.

[PowerSlave]

early QR was absolutely prog metal since they applied chord progressions and odd time signatures

While they did use some Pink Floyd style chord progressions and occassional odd time signatures they're early sound was mostly based around Iron Maiden and British rock/metal. Prog to me is a more of an instrumental style of music a la DT while QR was more traditional song based leaning more on the vocals.

Roads to Madness, Neue Regel, Screaming in Digital just to name a few. Those guys took chances back in the day and nobody sounded like that. Keep in mind, this stuff came out when the mainstream sounded like Def Leopard, Poison and Motley Crue. QR was very proggressive for their time. Try to keep historical perspective in mind when you hear them in their "heyday".

Another good example is Metallica. If RTL or MOP came out today nobody would think twice about them but, those albums are so revered because of the way that they changed the game so to speak when they came out. Early QR was the same for a different vein of music.

[eric42434224]

early QR was absolutely prog metal since they applied chord progressions and odd time signatures

While they did use some Pink Floyd style chord progressions and occassional odd time signatures they're early sound was mostly based around Iron Maiden and British rock/metal. Prog to me is a more of an instrumental style of music a la DT while QR was more traditional song based leaning more on the vocals.

Roads to Madness, Neue Regel, Screaming in Digital just to name a few. Those guys took chances back in the day and nobody sounded like that. Keep in mind, this stuff came out when the mainstream sounded like Def Leopard, Poison and Motley Crue. QR was very proggressive for their time. Try to keep historical perspective in mind when you hear them in their "heyday".

Another good example is Metallica. If RTL or MOP came out today nobody would think twice about them but, those albums are so revered because of the way that they changed the game so to speak when they came out. Early QR was the same for a different vein of music.

VERY true.  Well said.  Only problem is many here were toddlers (or not even born....God Im old ...) when O:M came out, so it is impossible for them to have any perspective.

[Ħ]

I disagree with that, eric.  To me, it's about the music and not about how it shapes the genre.  Everyone here knows how I feel about the Beatles but I'll use them as an example.  They stepped in right as rock and roll was about to die and revitalized it, then they went on to shape it more than any band ever has.  But does that mean I should take the historical significance into account when evaluating how good it actually is?  No.  That's completely biased.

That said, Operation: Mindcrime is a top 10 album for me.  SFAM is simply more musically crafted.  Only Revolution Calling and Eyes of a Stranger are comparable.

[eric42434224]

I disagree with that, eric.  To me, it's about the music and not about how it shapes the genre.  Everyone here knows how I feel about the Beatles but I'll use them as an example.  They stepped in right as rock and roll was about to die and revitalized it, then they went on to shape it more than any band ever has.  But does that mean I should take the historical significance into account when evaluating how good it actually is?  No.  That's completely biased.

That said, Operation: Mindcrime is a top 10 album for me.  SFAM is simply more musically crafted.  Only Revolution Calling and Eyes of a Stranger are comparable.

I am takling about the posters that say O:M sucks.  Not objective assessments like yours.
That being said, taking into account the era in which an album is made IS being objective.
It is similar to comparing atheletes of differing eras.  The era MUST be taken into account.
Same with music.

[PowerSlave]

I disagree with that, eric.  To me, it's about the music and not about how it shapes the genre.  Everyone here knows how I feel about the Beatles but I'll use them as an example.  They stepped in right as rock and roll was about to die and revitalized it, then they went on to shape it more than any band ever has.  But does that mean I should take the historical significance into account when evaluating how good it actually is?  No.  That's completely biased.

That said, Operation: Mindcrime is a top 10 album for me.  SFAM is simply more musically crafted.  Only Revolution Calling and Eyes of a Stranger are comparable.

What I was trying to point out and I think Eric was agreeing with me is where music was at a certain point and how someone came along and "pushed the envelope". People in music have to open doors so that someone can come along after them and push it further. Nobody is telling you that you have to like something that was produced 20+ years ago, just to appreciate what it meant at the time.

Imagine what was considered heavy metal 20, 30 or even 40 years ago. Most of it sounds pretty tame by todays standards but, you had to have that then to get to where you are now.

[Ħ]

Well, yeah, I understand you have to appreciate historical value.  But when doing comparisons between something modern and something old, historical value should be tabled, in my opinion.  It's the same thing as the mainstream vs. underground but to a lesser extent.

[hefdaddy42]

when doing comparisons between something modern and something old, historical value should be tabled, in my opinion. 

Not me.  I think historical value is an instrinsic part of the comparison.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Well, yeah, I understand you have to appreciate historical value.  But when doing comparisons between something modern and something old, historical value should be tabled, in my opinion.  It's the same thing as the mainstream vs. underground but to a lesser extent.

I don't know. Personally I don't care one microscopic bit about the historical value of music. I just care if it's good or not.

[jsem]

Well, yeah, I understand you have to appreciate historical value.  But when doing comparisons between something modern and something old, historical value should be tabled, in my opinion.  It's the same thing as the mainstream vs. underground but to a lesser extent.

I don't know. Personally I don't care one microscopic bit about the historical value of music. I just care if it's good or not.

This.

And I think QR are awesome. Putting aside historical value, I still regard O:M a superior album to SFAM.

[CrimsonSunrise]

This is a no brainer for me. O:M is by far a superior "Concept".  While I think DT hands down is the more talented group.... O:M is just phenominal.  Like someone else mentioned, if you grew up with both albums when they actually came out I think the difference is plain as day.  SFAM actually ranks pretty low on my "Concept" list, and is one of my least fav. DT albums.

[The Dark Master]

They are both great albums but I like Mindcrime far more the SFAM.  For one thing, there is not a single moment of filler on O:M, while there are a lot of moments on SFAM that feel like they are there for the sake of being there (most notably the entire second half of Beyond This Life).  Each and every song on Mindcrime has a rhyme and reason for why it is there, and every track compliments and completes the album both musically and lyrically.  As much as I love SFAM, I really do feel that it was the album where DT began going overboard with superfluous song lengths and complex instrumental sections.  DT prior to SFAM had a lot of subtlety and grace in their songwriting and songs were only long when they needed to be long, but with the introduction of Jordan on SFAM, they just became "prog for the sake of prog".  With SFAM, Dream Theater sacrificed much of their musical depth and atmosphere in favor of endless high speed shred-fests that had no real reason for being there.  And on a concept album, especially a rock opera with a lyrical narrative, the lyrics should be at the forefront of the music.  Mindcrime pulls this off perfectly, but in SFAM, the lyrics and story take a back seat to the afore mentioned instrumental sections.  I know alot of Dream Theater's detractors claim the band cannot "write songs" and I strongly disagree with them: just look and Images and Words or Awake. But in this regard, the band really dropped the ball with SFAM by making the story secondary to the musical proggy overkill.

Context is another thing to take into account when judging these albums.  Operation Mindcrime was far superior to most of it's 80's contemporaries.  The people saying that Queensryche are not prog and sound just like generic 80's metal need to take a step back and look at the other metal bands of the 80's.  Whether its hair metal like Motley Crue or thrash metal like Metallica, Queensryche really stood out from the pack in terms of their style and complexity, writing a social conscious rock opera in an age when all that mattered to most bands was either being as heavy as possible or getting laid as much as possible.  When Dream Theater did SFAM, however, prog-metal was a full-fledged genre and there was an ample catalog of new prog concept records that had come out since Mindcrime's debut:  The early Ayreon albums, Fates Warning's "Pleasant Shade of Grey", Savatage's many 90's rock operas (to say nothing of the obscenely popular Trans-Siberian Orchestra) and others.  Long story short, by the time SFAM was released, prog metal was drenched with concept albums.  While I do not believe SFAM to be bad in anyways, it never really stood out to me as being any better then it's contemporaries (and there were many contemporary concept records, such as Symphony X's "V" and the afore mentioned Savatage records, that I felt were significantly better then SFAM).

Lastly, there is the context with their respective band's careers in which these albums stand.  Mindcrime is far and away considered to be Queensryches best album, and considering the strength of their other early works, like "Rage for Order" or "Empire", that is no mean feat.  Scenes, on the other hand, while considered by many to be one of the best DT records, is by no means the album of there career.  "Images and Words" is far and away the most popular and influential, and going by the regularity of it's songs in live setlists, still the fan favorite; and in terms of quality, there are other albums, such as "Awake" and "Six Degrees", that the Dream Theater fanbase hold to be comparable to SFAM.  "Scenes" has no where near the universal adoration of DT fans that QR fans have for "Mindcrime".

I know SFAM is going to win this poll because, after all, this is a Dream Theater forum.  But putting band loyalty aside, I feel Mindcrime is the stronger album due to higher quality song writing, more emphasis on the conceptual narrative, it's relative high quality to the musical time and place in which it was released, and it's relative high quality within the context of the careers of it's creators.  There are countless "good" albums being released every year, but only once in a rare while do albums like Mindcrime come along that reshape a musical genre.  SFAM cannot make that claim because the prog metal genre had already taken shape (due, in no small part, to DT's own I&W) and it ultimately did not re-make the prog world in it's own image.  When you look the concept albums of the past decade, the primary musical influence on those albums are far older then SFAM.  Bands like Ayreon and Spock's Beard look to Yes and Pink Floyd, rather then Dream Theater for inspiration, while projects like Aina and Avantasia are clearly descended from the likes of Queensryche and Savatage.  Not to say that Dream Theater did not redefine prog; they did, but they did it with Images, not with Scenes.  After the success of I&W, making a concept album to emulate their predecessors was more like an after thought rather then a revolution.

[CrimsonSunrise]

They are both great albums but I like Mindcrime far more the SFAM.  For one thing, there is not a single moment of filler on O:M, while there are a lot of moments on SFAM that feel like they are there for the sake of being there (most notably the entire second half of Beyond This Life).  Each and every song on Mindcrime has a rhyme and reason for why it is there, and every track compliments and completes the album both musically and lyrically.  As much as I love SFAM, I really do feel that it was the album where DT began going overboard with superfluous song lengths and complex instrumental sections.  DT prior to SFAM had a lot of subtlety and grace in their songwriting and songs were only long when they needed to be long, but with the introduction of Jordan on SFAM, they just became "prog for the sake of prog".  With SFAM, Dream Theater sacrificed much of their musical depth and atmosphere in favor of endless high speed shred-fests that had no real reason for being there.  And on a concept album, especially a rock opera with a lyrical narrative, the lyrics should be at the forefront of the music.  Mindcrime pulls this off perfectly, but in SFAM, the lyrics and story take a back seat to the afore mentioned instrumental sections.  I know alot of Dream Theater's detractors claim the band cannot "write songs" and I strongly disagree with them: just look and Images and Words or Awake. But in this regard, they really dropped the ball with SFAM by making the story secondary to the musical proggy overkill.

Context is another thing to take into account when judging these albums.  Operation Mindcrime was far superior to most of it's 80's contemporaries.  The people saying that Queensryche are not prog and sound just like generic 80's metal need to take a step back and look at the other metal bands of the 80's.  Whether its hair metal like Motley Crue or thrash metal like Metallica, Queensryche really stood out from the pack in terms of their style and complexity, writing a social conscious rock opera in an age when all that mattered to most bands was either being as heavy as possible or getting laid as much as possible.  When Dream Theater did SFAM, however, prog-metal was a full-fledged genre and there was an ample catalog of new prog concept records that had come out since Mindcrime's debut:  The early Ayreon albums, Fates Warning's "Pleasant Shade of Grey", Savatage's many 90's rock operas (to say nothing of the obscenely popular Trans-Siberian Orchestra) and others.  Long story short, by the time SFAM was released, prog metal was drenched with concept albums.  While I do not believe SFAM to be bad in anyways, it never really stood out to me as being any better then it's contemporaries (and there were many contemporary concept records, such as Symphony X's "V" and the afore mentioned Savatage records, that I felt were significantly better then SFAM).

Lastly, there is the context with their respective band's careers in which these albums stand.  Mindcrime is far and away considered to be Queensryches best album, and considering the strength of their other early works, like "Rage for Order" or "Empire", that is no mean feat.  Scenes, on the other hand, while considered by many to be one of the best DT records, is by no means the album of there career.  "Images and Words" is far and away the most popular, and going by the regularity of it's songs in live setlists, still the fan favorite; and in terms of quality, there are other albums, such as "Awake" and "Six Degrees", that the Dream Theater fanbase holds to be comparable to SFAM.  "Scenes" has no where near the universal adoration of DT fans that QR fans have for "Mindcrime".

I know SFAM is going to win this poll because, after all, this is a Dream Theater forum.  But putting band loyalty aside, I feel Mindcrime is the stronger album due to higher quality song writing, more emphasis on the conceptual narrative, it's relative high quality to the musical time and place in which it was released, and it's relative high quality within the context of the careers of it's creators.  There are countless "good" albums being released every year, but only once in a rare while do albums like Mindcrime come along that reshape a musical genre.  SFAM cannot make that claim because the prog metal genre had already taken shape (due, in no small part, to DT's own I&W) and it ultimately did not re-make the prog world in it's own image.  When you look the concept albums of the past decade, the primary musical influence on those albums are far older then SFAM.  Bands like Ayreon and Spock's Beard look to Yes and Pink Floyd, rather then Dream Theater for inspiration, while projects like Aina and Avantasia are clearly descended from the likes of Queensryche and Savatage.  Not to say that Dream Theater did not redefine prog; they did, but they did it with Images, not with Scenes.  After the success of I&W, making a concept album to emulate their predecessors was more like an after thought rather then a revolution.

Well said Sir!  Very little I disagree with 

[jsem]

Dark Master is 100% correct.

[Zook]

How old are you Dark Master?

[The Dark Master]

How old are you Dark Master?

28, why?

[hefdaddy42]

How old are you Dark Master?

28, why?

I will fight for you.

[Zook]

Your post was very well written. Thought you were like 15. I was impressed, but since you're 28, I don't give a rat's ass anymore.

[jsem]

Your post was very well written. Thought you were like 15. I was impressed, but since you're 28, I don't give a rat's ass anymore.

Lol. Why would his age matter? He was six when O:M was released and you're giving him a pass?

Be consistent....

[The Dark Master]

Your post was very well written. Thought you were like 15. I was impressed, but since you're 28, I don't give a rat's ass anymore.

Well thanks anyways, a compliment is a compliment.  

I will fight for you.

Sweet, I could always use more minions  

[Zook]

Why should that matter? Anyone can have an opinion on an album regardless of if they grew up with it or not.