Dream Theater will go out as Mike's band

[phentalmyst]

you lost me at "It won't include the new drummer they're about to select"

[ariich]

What do you mean? You say people weren't sad back in the day when Kevin Moore left the band? People are still sad!

rumborak

I think TAC means that more people are sad about it now than were sad about it actually at the time.

[hefdaddy42]

What do you mean? You say people weren't sad back in the day when Kevin Moore left the band? People are still sad!

rumborak

Many people weren't sad because many people didn't know.  There wasn't really an internet like there is now.  There was the Ytsejam group and the fan club, and if you didn't belong to that and didn't happen to see them live, you wouldn't have known (like I didn't, until the ACOS EP came out).

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

What do you mean? You say people weren't sad back in the day when Kevin Moore left the band? People are still sad!

rumborak

I think TAC means that more people are sad about it now than were sad about it actually at the time.

We should also take into account the band didn't make so much interviews back on the day. We know lots of things straight from the horse's mouth these days.

I don't think people were fully aware of the role Moore played in the band by the time he left, they probably were like "Oh, new keyboardist. Cool!"

[TAC]

What do you mean? You say people weren't sad back in the day when Kevin Moore left the band? People are still sad!

rumborak

Unless someone just happened to latch onto him, I don't think it really mattered. At the time, they were still a "new" band. Personally I hated that a band that I had just gotten into, and was ready to proclaim it as the best band I've ever heard, had now changed a member. But at the time, I was happy that it was someone I recognized (Derek). The next few years did turn out to be turbulent, but unless you were a keyboard freak in love with DT, Kevin leaving did not make any difference, at least to me anyway.

Now that we have different eras to compare, it's easy to see the kind of musical and lyrical influence he had, but it's my contention that WHEN he left, it was no big deal, generally speaking, to the fans.

[rumborak]

Man, that's one hell of a tangent now
I was only saying "sad" in essentially the same way you guys are now. People were saying "oh, bummer" when KM left. But that is a far cry from what people said when Peter Gabriel left Genesis (which is where this tangent started off).

rumborak

[TAC]

Well, that I agree with. Nobody can compare the "at the moment" or "when it happenned" feeling of Moore leaving DT and Gabriel leaving Genesis.

[j]

Yeah, the situations aren't that similar at all, my bad for bringing it up.  My main point was that of the two major DT member departures, Moore and Portnoy, Moore's was more like Gabriel leaving Genesis in a couple of minor ways.  Not sure why I thought that made sense.  Ban me for my incompetence.

-J

[Orion1967]

Or what folks are not seeming to say (or think), the other option is that the new drummer is phenominal. The band gels, makes another 10 to 15 stellar albums before hanging it up.  Given that scenario, I don't really think you could consider DT going out as "Mike's Band".   The band never was "Mike's Band" otherwise it would be called "The Mike Portnoy Project" or "Mike and the other guys" or something equally abhorrent.

Do I like MP and do I wish I had even an iota of the talent he has? absolutely.
Did Mike sculpt what DT as a musical group is today? probaly or at least to a greater extent, yes
Did Mike's departure make me a sad panda? Yup, sure did
Do I think he stepped on his own johnson with the way he handled the whole situation? absolutely 
Did the whineyness that ensued after A7X thing make me think a lot less of him as a person (not a musical talent)? Yup, sure did but not really relevant at all to the topic tbqh
Do I think that he was the end all - be all of what DT is? absolutely not

DT was a 5 man group of phenominally talented musicians that forged a particular sound though collaboration, and songwriting.  The 'fact' that MP was THE man that did everything and that the band was incapable without him... well that fact remains to be seen truely since the lions share of that boast came from... oh yeah... Mike Portnoy.


Personally I think that the remaing 4/5ths of the musical talent will be capable of maintining the same DT sound that they have had for so many years now.   Time will tell.

[snowdog]

What do you mean? You say people weren't sad back in the day when Kevin Moore left the band? People are still sad!

rumborak

Unless someone just happened to latch onto him, I don't think it really mattered. At the time, they were still a "new" band. Personally I hated that a band that I had just gotten into, and was ready to proclaim it as the best band I've ever heard, had now changed a member. But at the time, I was happy that it was someone I recognized (Derek). The next few years did turn out to be turbulent, but unless you were a keyboard freak in love with DT, Kevin leaving did not make any difference, at least to me anyway.

Now that we have different eras to compare, it's easy to see the kind of musical and lyrical influence he had, but it's my contention that WHEN he left, it was no big deal, generally speaking, to the fans.

I got into DT in December of '92.  When I heard that Moore left the band (sometime around Awake), I know I was pretty disappointed in that.  I thought he was a great player and really appreciated the atmospheric qualities he brought to the music more so than his technical qualities.  When I started hearing bootlegs with Derek I really wasn't convinced and still a little disappointed.  I didn't care for his solo in ACOS having heard the live version for over a year prior to hearing the "official" version.  But that is to be expected when you have heard one version for so long.

It probably wasn't until right before DT made the switch to Jordan that I actually had accepted Derek as the keyboardist for DT.  Looking back now I don't really have a problem with Derek, he was just different than Kevin.

As a tangent to this tangent, I personally think that what DT lost musically when Kevin left is going to be much bigger than what they are going to lose musically with Portnoy leaving the band.  Time will tell, but I really doubt I'm going to be listening to newer Dream Theater albums thinking "I really miss this aspect that Portnoy brought to the music" the way I did with Kevin leaving.  Then again I'm in the camp that loves pretty much everything Kevin did in the band and wish Jordan could be more atmospheric at times so I'm probably biased.  That said I have great respect for Jordan.  Additionally I think Kevin leaving was a great choice since I don't believe in doing something your heart is not into and I definitely love the work he has done since leaving DT.  He definitely couldn't have done a lot of that work within the confines of DT.

[rumborak]

Or what folks are not seeming to say (or think), the other option is that the new drummer is phenominal. The band gels, makes another 10 to 15 stellar albums before hanging it up.

Dude, unless you're counting live albums and other stuff with that, there's no chance in hell that DT will release another 10 albums, let alone 15.

rumborak

[Samsara]

Guys, bands like DT can go on as long as they want. DT especially. How many young fans does DT have? A TON. They are at their highest popularity level since the songs from I&W were popular. I'm not saying DT WILL put out another 10 albums, or stay together another 20 years, but in this day and age, I wouldn't count them out.

Realistically, I think if DT continues to be around the same popularity level and they are still inspired to create music together, they will probably put out another five or six albums over the next 15 years.

But the big thing is...will they continue to inspire each other? Time will tell.

[jsem]

As long as JR keeps finding new instruments... at least he will be inspired.

[Metabog]

Guys, bands like DT can go on as long as they want. DT especially. How many young fans does DT have? A TON. They are at their highest popularity level since the songs from I&W were popular. I'm not saying DT WILL put out another 10 albums, or stay together another 20 years, but in this day and age, I wouldn't count them out.

Realistically, I think if DT continues to be around the same popularity level and they are still inspired to create music together, they will probably put out another five or six albums over the next 15 years.

But the big thing is...will they continue to inspire each other? Time will tell.

Bands with a very dedicated fanbase that wasn't gathered through marketing and official label means apparently tend to go on for a long time. A few examples, Ozric Tentacles, Hawkwind, King Crimson, etc. BIG progressive rock bands of the past that became popular didn't fare very well after member changes, and where are Yes, ELP, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Asia, now? What happened to them? They went through almost the exact same stuff DT is going through now, a member having an ego fit and leaving, and possibly causing this kind of confusion and leaving behind a host of legal issues. And in the end what happened was exactly what the OP mentioned, a lot of tiny little fragment bands with different names, with different parts of the original band, trying to pretend to be the band they once were.

Dream Theater imo started as a very niche band that had gathered momentum solely by it's underground fan base, forums, etc. Through Roadrunner and the last few albums, appearances in Guitar Hero and games and stuff, etc, I think they're firmly in Yes/Genesis/Pink Floyd territory at this point.

This is just my opinion, it doesn't really mean it's going to go down like that, of course.

[TAC]

What do you mean? You say people weren't sad back in the day when Kevin Moore left the band? People are still sad!

rumborak

Unless someone just happened to latch onto him, I don't think it really mattered. At the time, they were still a "new" band. Personally I hated that a band that I had just gotten into, and was ready to proclaim it as the best band I've ever heard, had now changed a member. But at the time, I was happy that it was someone I recognized (Derek). The next few years did turn out to be turbulent, but unless you were a keyboard freak in love with DT, Kevin leaving did not make any difference, at least to me anyway.

Now that we have different eras to compare, it's easy to see the kind of musical and lyrical influence he had, but it's my contention that WHEN he left, it was no big deal, generally speaking, to the fans.

I got into DT in December of '92.  When I heard that Moore left the band (sometime around Awake), I know I was pretty disappointed in that.  I thought he was a great player and really appreciated the atmospheric qualities he brought to the music more so than his technical qualities.  When I started hearing bootlegs with Derek I really wasn't convinced and still a little disappointed.  I didn't care for his solo in ACOS having heard the live version for over a year prior to hearing the "official" version.  But that is to be expected when you have heard one version for so long.

It probably wasn't until right before DT made the switch to Jordan that I actually had accepted Derek as the keyboardist for DT.  Looking back now I don't really have a problem with Derek, he was just different than Kevin.

As a tangent to this tangent, I personally think that what DT lost musically when Kevin left is going to be much bigger than what they are going to lose musically with Portnoy leaving the band.  Time will tell, but I really doubt I'm going to be listening to newer Dream Theater albums thinking "I really miss this aspect that Portnoy brought to the music" the way I did with Kevin leaving.  Then again I'm in the camp that loves pretty much everything Kevin did in the band and wish Jordan could be more atmospheric at times so I'm probably biased.  That said I have great respect for Jordan.  Additionally I think Kevin leaving was a great choice since I don't believe in doing something your heart is not into and I definitely love the work he has done since leaving DT.  He definitely couldn't have done a lot of that work within the confines of DT.

Just for the record, at the time, I thought they took a huge step down in going from Moore to Derek.

[The Dark Master]

In response to the OP;

I guess it is possible to see this sort of splinter band thing happening with Dream Theater, but I think it is unlikely.  The main reason why Mike Portnoy can't be compared to Neal Morse, Roger Waters, Peter Gabriel, etc is because, quite frankly, he isn't like them at all.  His lyrical/ vocal melody contributions were small compared to Petrucci's (and, pre-1994, Moore's), and as a drummer, he was certainly not the one writing a lot of the musical melodies and harmonies.  There is a reason why the music to almost every Dream Theater song is credited to "Dream Theater" or the four instrumentalists.  Portnoy can't be compared to the above mentioned guys because, to be blunt, he did not write the majority of the music.  If any one can claim that right, it is Petrucci.  Roger Waters can do his "Pink Floyd" tours because he wrote the vast majority of those albums.  I don't see any reason why Portnoy couldn't do the same, I suppose, but he can't exactly claim to be the mastermind behind any DT albums, really.

On the subject of Dream Theater's line up stability, they have been remarkably stable for over a decade now, and age wise I think they are past the point in a band's career where they could just devolve into a revolving door of musicians.  If you look at what happened to Yes, Genesis, Floyd and others, these sort of fracture points usually occurred within the first 20 years of their existence, and the band never formed a stable roster since.  If there was a point when that was going to happen to DT, I think it would have been back in the Falling Into Infinity era, because it is usually in situations like that (a young, successful band falling victim to the machine of the industry) when musicians start joining and leaving on a whim.  But after a comeback (SFAM) with 11 years and 6 albums with the same line up?  I highly doubt it.  So Portnoy left, ok......  Petrucci and Myung have been playing together since their teens.  LaBrie has been in the band since Images and at this point his voice is synonymous with Dream Theater.  Rudess, quite frankly, is the closest of the remaining four to being "replacable", but considering how well he has integrated himself into the song writing structure of the band over the course of six albums, I think even he is past the point where he could just be outed and replaced.  The thing with Portnoy is sort of a freak of nature, considering the stability of the current roster.  He got bored of the band, and wanted to do other things (sound familiar?).  Fair enough for him, but he tried to get the rest of the band to take a break while he was out doing whatever, and that was what resulted in his exit from DT.  The simple fact that the other four unanimously agreed that they would want to continue with or without him speaks volumes of their solidarity and their willingness to continue under the Dream Theater banner.  I could see them going through a few drummers before they finally find someone who is a comfortable fit in the band (although the great pains they took in this highly selective drummer audition indicates they already know the guy they picked pretty well), and maybe that will ultimately lead to Portnoy's eventual return (a real return, not a grudging "ok, well I didn't realize you guys had the balls to go on without me, so I want back in even though you've already picked my replacement" return).


As for Portnoy putting together a band of ex-DT people and doing a pseudo-DT tour; it is possible, but I think it would always be considered "that other Dream Theater" as long as the real band is still around.  Maybe that would include Charlie and Derek.  Maybe current members of the band would come aboard as special guests.  But as long as there is a real DT in existence, then Portnoy can't exactly create a surrogate DT to fill the void, because there would be no void to fill.  If anything, such a group would just be an excuse for Portnoy to continue to play Dream Theater songs...... which kind of runs counter to his whole reasoning behind leaving the band in the first place! (Please note that in this paragraph, I was assuming the new Portnoy band would be a blatant attempt at creating a new DT, i.e. a new band with old DT members wherein DT songs would form a heavy portion of any live setlist; I was not referring to the possibility of Portnoy creating a whole new band with other ex-DT personalities with a focus on original works.)

So as long as the other four remain together under the name Dream Theater, Portnoy has no grounds for creating a DT Jr. because he was not the primary composer/lyricist.  In fact, if he ever tried to make a pseudo-DT while the real DT was still together, then it would expose him as a hypocrite who just wanted to marginalize the other members to assume total creative control over the band.  Not that I would put it past him to try such a thing, but such adventures are rarely viewed well in the eyes of the fans (Roger Waters only got away with it because Floyd basically doesn't exist anymore, plus he wrote almost all of "The Wall" anyways).  I guess if he pulled an Asia and created a new band that was kind of like DT, but still stood on it's own merits, then that could work, and honestly that's kind of what I hope he does.  But if he just keeps trying to emulate the past glories of DT with his solo band, he will ultimately just marginalize himself, not the real Dream Theater.

[Perpetual Change]

First off, dude, thanks for the long post. I'm honored that you'd give my thread so much of your time.

To respond, I don't think Mike would do it if the other DT was still active. I think it'd only happen if DT took went on hiatus indefinitely. I can see what your saying about Mike being not as essential to the music as the other guys. However I still think he'll want to be a part of DT again, even if it means years from now.

[The Dark Master]

First off, dude, thanks for the long post. I'm honored that you'd give my thread so much of your time.

To respond, I don't think Mike would do it if the other DT was still active. I think it'd only happen if DT took went on hiatus indefinitely. I can see what your saying about Mike being not as essential to the music as the other guys. However I still think he'll want to be a part of DT again, even if it means years from now.

No problem.  With a subject like this, I'd rather post something lengthy and well thought out.

And yes, if the other guys do take a hiatus then a multiple splinter band situation could arise, a la post Re-layer Yes, although I do not think a hiatus is likely for many reasons I already stated (after all, they just chose to continue without a founding member rather then take a break, so clearly they are committed to the band 110% for the foreseeable future.)  It may happen after a few albums without Portnoy, particularly if their popularity dips due to the split, but barring that, I feel they will continue forward as planed.  As for Mike wanting to rejoin the band, I definitely think it will happen at some point.  You don't spend 25 years in a band just to quit cold turkey.  Mike said he just wanted a break and I believe him.  But given his and the remaining members current feelings on the matter, the fact that they already hired a replacement (presumably with whom they are recording a new album even as we discuss this), all the new projects Portnoy has on his plate right now, and the already aborted attempt at his re-entry, I agree a reunion won't happen for a while.

[Perpetual Change]

Another thing is Mike's personality. Sure he's got an obsessive and really protective personality, but he IS someone who can just 'walk away' and leave things behind for good. Quitting Dream Theater might have been really hard for him, but I think maybe in a decade or so he might even be glad he did it.

[dongringo]

As far as the Genesis thing goes, I can totally see how Dream Theater's next album could be their Trick of the Tail in a, "hey, it's not only better than we thought it would be, but it might be the best one yet!" kind of way. But I also think that DT (like Genesis) won't be able to sustain that for more than an album or two. People will leave eventually. Jordan's in his 60s by DT's 30th. James is in his by the next next album. The rest of the guys are following suit. Age doesn't always factor in but I do wonder how long they'll all want to keep up with the cycle.

I thought of that too. It's no wonder they didn't want to go on an indefinite hiatus. This is their time. The time in now.

[The Dark Master]

Another thing is Mike's personality. Sure he's got an obsessive and really protective personality, but he IS someone who can just 'walk away' and leave things behind for good. Quitting Dream Theater might have been really hard for him, but I think maybe in a decade or so he might even be glad he did it.

Yes, in fact, given his stated enthusiasm about all his current projects, I'm fairly certain he is coming around to that conclusion right now.  That doesn't necessarily preclude a future reunion, as I am sure that he will still want to get back into Dream Theater since it was such a big part of his life, but I wouldn't be surprised if even in the event of a reunion he still participates in his side projects to the extent that his influence in DT is nowhere near as great as it has been in the past decade.

[ShadowWalker]

I get the impression on this board that a lot of people aren't really bothered about Portnoy leaving and are actually *more* excited about the next album than before.

I know I am. DT has been stale and my gut tells me it has a lot to do with the control MP had over the band. I had already given up on seeing them live anymore after the Prog Nation 2009 show I went to (though I did see them twice with Iron Maiden, but Maiden was the reason I was at those shows, not DT). If this album is as good as I hope it will be, it will renew my interest as a fan...

[Samsara]

I know I am. DT has been stale and my gut tells me it has a lot to do with the control MP had over the band. I had already given up on seeing them live anymore after the Prog Nation 2009 show I went to (though I did see them twice with Iron Maiden, but Maiden was the reason I was at those shows, not DT). If this album is as good as I hope it will be, it will renew my interest as a fan...

Amen, SW (although you knew I fully agreed with you beforehand).

[ytserush]

RE: Kevin Moore:

When I found out Kevin left I was devastated until I heard his demos and his first solo album. Then I understood completely.

[rumborak]

I get the impression on this board that a lot of people aren't really bothered about Portnoy leaving and are actually *more* excited about the next album than before.

I know I am. DT has been stale and my gut tells me it has a lot to do with the control MP had over the band. I had already given up on seeing them live anymore after the Prog Nation 2009 show I went to (though I did see them twice with Iron Maiden, but Maiden was the reason I was at those shows, not DT). If this album is as good as I hope it will be, it will renew my interest as a fan...

The thing I'm weary of though is to use MP as a scapegoat for everything. I mean, the questionable keyboard solos weren't Mike's invention, neither were superfluous unisons or bad lyrics. Sure, he had a good amount of influence, but he also took credit for a lot of things that might have not all have been his. Which in turn means they won't change just because Mike left.
There's a different explanation lurking: DT are nearing the end of their musical output.  It has happened to almost every band in this world, where the number of good tunes steadily declines on new albums, up to the point where people only come to concert to hear the old stuff.

rumborak

[robwebster]

There's a different explanation lurking: DT are nearing the end of their musical output.  It has happened to almost every band in this world, where the number of good tunes steadily declines on new albums, up to the point where people only come to concert to hear the old stuff.

rumborak

Judging by the fact that they're still constantly growing, and the albums are steadily gaining more acclaim? I'd say that's patently not the case. Only one member was running out of steam, and so they left. For the rest of them? The decline's still a fair way away yet. The appetite for new DT material is stronger than it's ever been. Look at the sales figures, the chart rankings, the reviews - there's an amount of natural wastage within the fanbase, sure, but that's inevitable.

If you're a fan of a band it'll be based on the quality of their past material, not their future material, for the simple reason that no bugger's heard what they're going to put out - and it takes a while for a fanbase to re-align. Six Degrees was the band "running out of ideas" and "just relying on silly wanking and overly long songs" a few years back. Nowadays it's a fan favourite. The people who don't like that incarnation of Dream Theater have left, and they've been replaced by people who are more fond of SDOIT. Starting to see Train of Thought getting reappraised, too, now. Not people changing their minds - just the fanbase regenerating. Few years down the line it'll be Systematic Chaos that'll be hailed as original, experimental, and "a bit different." A breath of fresh air.

Rumours of DT's demise are greatly exaggerated. They've got the same ming-mong insular fanbase that every recording artist suffers from, but their health's about as rude as it's ever been.

[TAC]

Plus a lot of folks around here have only caught onto DT in the last 5-6 years or so. Not everyone's a fogey.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Are DT actually selling more?

Their album sales are starting better. But are they selling more overall?

[robwebster]

Not certain. Anecdotally, the amount of publicity would seem to imply so, though. As well as - generally - gig size and attendance, accounting for the economy going tits-up between Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds.

There's a pretty big chasm between #19 (I think?) and #6. They're certainly not getting any smaller.

[bosk1]

Are DT actually selling more?

Their album sales are starting better. But are they selling more overall?

I am under the impression they are selling more overall given the things Rob pointed out and what the band has said in recent years.  However, it is impossible to say for sure since we in the general public don't have hard numbers.  I hate that RIAA/Soundscan numbers are not available to the public (although I suspect one of the reasons for that is that the numbers are somewhat manipulated anyway).  But at least in terms of certifications, what I can say for sure is that I&W is the only Dream Theater album to reach gold status.  https://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?table=SEARCH_RESULTS  (other than some of their videos, but the numbers for gold status for videos is a lot lower than for albums)

[orcus116]

There's a pretty big chasm between #19 (I think?) and #6.

Sales-wise you mean? I've always got the impressive that top 200 sales are logarithmic, with the top 1-3 selling a ton and the drop off after that is quite significant. So the difference between #6 and #19 might only be 10,000 or so.

[lordxizor]

There's a different explanation lurking: DT are nearing the end of their musical output.  It has happened to almost every band in this world, where the number of good tunes steadily declines on new albums, up to the point where people only come to concert to hear the old stuff.

rumborak

I've been wondering this same thing. Is it possible that DT has simply run out of good, new ideas? It's easy to argue that DT is more popular then ever, but it would also be easy to argue that over the last couple albums their sound has become more mainstream, less experimental, and more metal, which would appeal to a larger fan base. I have no doubts that DT could continue to pump out albums similar to the last couple and maintain a good popularity level for years to come. I wouldn't fault them one bit for sticking to what's been successful recently and riding it to retirement.

That said, I really hope that Mike leaving was a kick in the pants and an inspiration to do something new and different. To break out of the mold of the more recent albums try to experiment again.

[Samsara]

Sales mean almost nothing in comparison to what they used to mean.

You can debut in the top-10 now with sales numbers that wouldn't have cracked the top-100 just 10 years ago. Sure, sales or sales, but the bigger thing is growing the fan base so you can play bigger venues and get bigger guarantees from promoters.

DT's sales did go up until BC&SL. That record was their best debut (BC&SL), but I'm not sure it sold more to this point than did Systematic Chaos.

Rumbo said:

The thing I'm weary of though is to use MP as a scapegoat for everything. I mean, the questionable keyboard solos weren't Mike's invention, neither were superfluous unisons or bad lyrics. Sure, he had a good amount of influence, but he also took credit for a lot of things that might have not all have been his. Which in turn means they won't change just because Mike left.
There's a different explanation lurking: DT are nearing the end of their musical output.  It has happened to almost every band in this world, where the number of good tunes steadily declines on new albums, up to the point where people only come to concert to hear the old stuff.

Good point. MP isn't the scapegoat, or shouldn't be, for EVERYTHING. That said, you can't ignore the fact that MP's personality and presence likely did help shape what came out under DT's name.

It's obviously a combination of things. But I think what SW is saying, and I agree with this, is that MP's departure allows the rest of the band to take a collective breath, and perhaps feel a little more inspired, and that could lead to good things. Sometimes, a shake-up is the best thing for any group of individuals.

Time will tell.