Mike Portnoy on wanting to rejoin Dream Theater

[The Dark Master]

Fair enough.  I still always got the impression that Mike was shaping the albums in the studio with specific sounds and themes in mind.  I remember one comment (by Paul Northfield, I think) that Mike acts like a movie director in the studio in his relationship to the other members.  Of course, I could be wrong about how tight his control was specifically, but I think it is a safe bet that the more blatant attempt at a "modern" sound on SC and BC&SL (the metalcore vox in particular) was largely his influence.

[bosk1]

Yes, but Paul Northfield is a big...well, okay, yeah, I'll give you that one.

[simba]

Hi guys, im new here, well i used to post here, im not too sure what happened to my old account?

anyway, its good to be back, ive been a dream theater fan since just before the octavarium album and i signed back up just so i could post my opinion on all this:

personally, i feel that dream theater (without portnoy) are making a huge mistake. having nothing to do with any "behind the scenes" dramas, i just think first and foremost, to go on in dream theater without portnoy is really a bad move. Dont get me wrong, he is by no means my favourite drummer, and they are by no means my favourite band (im more of a alternative rock listener if i had to narrow it down), but dream theater is and has been since scenes from a memory, labrie, petrucci, portnoy, rudess, myung. and to be even more indepth, dream theater has ALWAYS been petrucci, portnoy, myung.

i know theres plenty of other drummers out there who could fill his role, and (based on opinion) be a better suit for the band, or perhaps a worse match. but one thing i think alot of fans are forgetting its the limits of those 5 peoples minds that make a band. its the fact that it was portnoy and petrucci coming up with those parts, weather they be lame parts or awesome parts (im not much of a fan of any of there newer stuff), but its the fact it was them.

i know everything is said and done, and im sure theres alot more to it than we all know, but based purely on the magic of 5 guys in a room (the same goes for any band, for example the red hot chili peppers, john frusciante, arguably the most influential guitarist of atleast the 90's, has parted ways, and it will just never be the same).

dont get me wrong im looking forward to new music, but something about all this just doesnt sit right with me.

and i know its much more easier said than done, but a side of my would prefer bands that go through these things, should just take a indefinite hiadus, or even break up, for the sake of the legacy, if nothing else?

anyway its good to be back, thanks.

[bosk1]

I was baffled when I saw you sign up because I remember your old account as well, and can't for the life of me figure out why it no longer exists.  Welcome back.    ...unless, of course, you pissed me off and got banned and I just don't remember it.  In which case, I've got your number, buddy, so don't screw up again or your outta here forever!  

[Tick]

I was baffled when I saw you sign up because I remember your old account as well, and can't for the life of me figure out why it no longer exists.  Welcome back.    ...unless, of course, you pissed me off and got banned and I just don't remember it.  In which case, I've got your number, buddy, so don't screw up again or your outta here forever!  

[YtseBitsySpider]

meet the new mod....same as the old mod.....

[Dream Team]

1.  Writing lyrics is not the same as writing the music.
2.  It did not prevent Myung from writing lyrics.  The rule was that if you submit lyrics, you have to submit a vocal melody with them, which Myung chose not to do.  And, for the record, LONG before MP said he was leaving, Myung said he planned to contribute lyrics again in the future.

I also thought it was something to do with Myung's lyrics not being in finished form? (free-style poetry or something?)

[Nekov]

1.  Writing lyrics is not the same as writing the music.
2.  It did not prevent Myung from writing lyrics.  The rule was that if you submit lyrics, you have to submit a vocal melody with them, which Myung chose not to do.  And, for the record, LONG before MP said he was leaving, Myung said he planned to contribute lyrics again in the future.

I also thought it was something to do with Myung's lyrics not being in finished form? (free-style poetry or something?)

MP said on an interview that JM did not write the full lyrics but just came up with great poetry and thoughts and the MP and JP had to put it together and give it some sense and structure.

[KevShmev]

MP said on an interview that JM did not write the full lyrics but just came up with great poetry and thoughts and the MP and JP had to put it together and give it some sense and structure.

What's wrong with that?  Sure, it would be nice if he had them all ready to go, in song form already, but if they are that good (which his lyrics have always been), what is the problem with putting a little extra work in, especially if it makes the overall product that much better?  

To me, the whole idea of a rule like that is really silly.  Putting parameters on songwriting is very restrictive.  And dare I say, not very progressive.

[Super Dude]

MP said on an interview that JM did not write the full lyrics but just came up with great poetry and thoughts and the MP and JP had to put it together and give it some sense and structure.

What's wrong with that?  Sure, it would be nice if he had them all ready to go, in song form already, but if they are that good (which his lyrics have always been), what is the problem with putting a little extra work in, especially if it makes the overall product that much better?  

To me, the whole idea of a rule like that is really silly.  Putting parameters on songwriting is very restrictive.  And dare I say, not very progressive.

Indeed.

[Nekov]

What's wrong with that?  Sure, it would be nice if he had them all ready to go, in song form already, but if they are that good (which his lyrics have always been), what is the problem with putting a little extra work in, especially if it makes the overall product that much better?  

To me, the whole idea of a rule like that is really silly.  Putting parameters on songwriting is very restrictive.  And dare I say, not very progressive.

The way I see it it's like getting a half solved puzzle without the real notion of what it is meant to be and having to put it together. It might be a nice challenge but the 3rd or 4th time it happens it gets kind of annoying.

[Orbert]

The puzzle analogy is interesting, but they need lyrics anyway.  Lyrics start with ideas, and here's a bunch of ideas already worked out, some phrases ready to go but a lot of it still needing some work to fit into songs.  It's not more work for them, it's less; some of the work is already done.

Maybe it's different if you're a songwriter.  Maybe there's some kind of issue working with other people's ideas when working them into lyrics.  But it just seems like a rather arbitrary rule, resulting in them losing out on something, when all they have to do is allow it.

[robwebster]

MP said on an interview that JM did not write the full lyrics but just came up with great poetry and thoughts and the MP and JP had to put it together and give it some sense and structure.

What's wrong with that?  Sure, it would be nice if he had them all ready to go, in song form already, but if they are that good (which his lyrics have always been), what is the problem with putting a little extra work in, especially if it makes the overall product that much better? 

To me, the whole idea of a rule like that is really silly.  Putting parameters on songwriting is very restrictive.  And dare I say, not very progressive.

They also live in the real world. That big ol' rocky thing full of deadlines and disputes and coffee breaks. And they've probably got enough on their plates without having stray lyrics to clean up.

Not that it'd take fifty years to do, it's probably a fairly simple procedure. And not that they couldn't probably hire out the studio for a little longer, if they wanted. But I imagine, between spending two hours writing brand new vocal melodies for someone else's lyrics, and between spending that two hours helping get the mix sorted, they'd rather do the latter.

...Is what I'd say if that made any sense whatsoever. But in practice, for every set of lyrics that JM doesn't write, JP or JLB (or MP back in the day) would have to write it on their own. And put vocal melodies to it. Even if they just got JM to do the first bit and write the lyrics on their own, that'd be one less problem to worry about. So the oft-touted "how lazy of them, they should just do the vocal melodies themselves" thing doesn't quite hold water, even though it does look fairly convincing on the surface.



Which means that it's probably the actual act of editing the lyrics that they weren't comfortable with, rather than the time it'd cost them. Seems more logical to me that they don't like the idea of cannibalising lyrics they didn't even write, and having to edit them to fit the melodies of the song, and so it made more sense to give that responsibility to their writer. Like painting over a Van Gogh - what qualifies JP to say "this bit needs to be removed?"

In the world of screenwriting, being given free reign to do your own edits is something of an honour. A small honour, sure, but an honour. Usually, the head writer will act as an overseer and make sure that everything "fits."

Lyrics will undergo a fair few re-writes. You can see JP re-writing TDEN on the Chaos in Progress DVD - there's a different, handwritten draft on the desk. Seeing as JM not contributing would just give the existing band members more work to do, chances are they probably weren't comfortable re-writing other people's lyrics to fit the songs, and they went "Right. From now on, we do our own re-writes" - and, I guess it turns out John Myung couldn't really be bothered. "Nah, you guys do it."

It doesn't seem unfair to JM to me. If anything, the rule's pretty respectful of him. Even if I'm wrong about the reason for it (and it's pure speculation, so there's every chance!), they've essentially gone "hey, guy. Listen, you're totally capable of doing this by yourself, so do it. You don't need us."

It's not like they're asking the world of him. It's not like they're saying he can't contribute. What the rule does is afford everyone the right to do their own re-writes and be the kings of their own lyrical worlds - that's a fantastic opportunity. Different world, but screenwriters would kill for something similar. JM just doesn't want to play. Nobody's stifling him. Quite the opposite - looks to me more like they're refusing to cut apart his works.

[TAC]

They should look at it like jamming on lyrical ideas, similar to jamming on musical ones.

[Infinite Cactus]

I always wondered how Myung was supposed to come up with the melodies when as far as I know, he doesn't sing/maybe can't. I suppose he could have written the vocal lines on bass or piano  . I always thought that making rules for how to make your music was silly. Unless your are purposefully trying to challenge yourself with certain restrictions, but this seemed counter productive.It worked out well before,(Trial of Tears,Learning to Live etc.) the extra work definitely seems worth it.

[Nekov]

And dare I say, not very progressive.

Well, if we look backwards on the mayor prog bands this happens all the time. Robert Fripp is known for being a control freak that sets up very specific rules in order to write music. Same thing with Chris Squire in Yes and Steve Hackett in Genesis. Don't really know about ELP but I think Emerson kind of had control in the studio too.

Anyways, it sucks but that's the way the prog world is.

[Samsara]

1.  Writing lyrics is not the same as writing the music.

Incorrect in the context of writing a "song" unless it is meant as an instrumental. A lyricist, if that lyricist writes the words and vocal melody, is an equal songwriter to whoever the music writer(s) are, at least in the eyes of publishing.

2.  It did not prevent Myung from writing lyrics.  The rule was that if you submit lyrics, you have to submit a vocal melody with them, which Myung chose not to do.  And, for the record, LONG before MP said he was leaving, Myung said he planned to contribute lyrics again in the future.

Actually, wasn't it that the person had to submit the lyrics in lyrical form, instead of random poetry and words? Semantics, sure. But there IS a BIT of difference. Most poetry has a vocal melody, whereas random words and ideas about where to go with lyrics may not. Splitting hairs a bit, but just wanted to be clear on this "rule" by Portnoy regarding lyrics (one which I mostly agree with, because it seems a bit ridiculous if someone submits "lyrics" that have to be totally changed because there is no melody or connection with the music).

[bosk1]

1.  Writing lyrics is not the same as writing the music.

Incorrect in the context of writing a "song" unless it is meant as an instrumental. A lyricist, if that lyricist writes the words and vocal melody, is an equal songwriter to whoever the music writer(s) are, at least in the eyes of publishing.

You are technically correct, but you missed the point of what I was saying.  In context, I was responding to the misstatement that "Portnoy created a rule that kept John Myung from writing music anymore."  My point is that that misstates what happened because, even if you believe the "rule" in question prevented John Myung from writing, the rule applied to writing lyrics only and would have had nothing whatsoever to do with John Myung being part of the music writing process.

[Raziel666]

What's wrong with that?  Sure, it would be nice if he had them all ready to go, in song form already, but if they are that good (which his lyrics have always been), what is the problem with putting a little extra work in, especially if it makes the overall product that much better?  

To me, the whole idea of a rule like that is really silly.  Putting parameters on songwriting is very restrictive.  And dare I say, not very progressive.

So very true. And they could also let JLB have a go with turning poems into lyrics and writing the melody.

Alas, a rule is a rule...

/sarcasm

[Major Thirteenth]

That would be incredibly foolish of him.  And why would you even speculate that he would do such a thing since there hasn't even been a hint of that?

I thought I read somewhere that the name was in play. Even if isn't true, it should be from a legal standpoint. The threat of a battle over the name would be included by any decent lawyer devising a strategy to obtain a good settlement result. I doubt Mike would have any real use for the name, but it would be a good thing to throw in the mix in working out a deal. Of course the name is actually owned by the corporation and is subject to vote by the officers. So Mike would lose every vote if he attempted to re-purpose the DT name and trademark.

[bosk1]

All of what you say is absolutely true.  And, in the abstract, that is absolutely fair legal strategy:  throw some chips on the table you don't care about to give you leverage in bargaining for something else you do care about.  BUT in this case, it absolutely changes the dynamic of the game and turns this whole negotiation a lot uglier.  With Mike leaving, of course there are hurt feelings, and of course there have been brash statements (even aside from the public ones, I imagine there were a lot of things said in private that were heated as well).  But I really think in the long-run, everyone eventually gets to the place where they forgive and forget all of that and move on.  If Mike were to put the DT name on the table as an issue, at least to me, that's hitting below the belt and burning some bridges that will not be rebuilt.  I just don't see him going there (or allowing his lawyers to go there), so I hate to see someone even throw it out there as speculation unless we have some reason to believe it is actually going on.  

Again, I see what you are saying.  In my own law practice, negotiating is a huge part of what I do every day.  But in this particular case, I do think the name "should be [in play] from a legal standpoint."  It just changes the dynamic in a very ugly way that I don't see Mike doing.  So, please, let's not throw out those kinds of accusations if we don't have any concrete information to back them up.

[ariich]

Completely agreed bosk, I just can't see Mike doing anything like that.

[TAC]

Bosk, how would you explain his website going from EX Drummer to Drummer of DT?

[bosk1]

I wouldn't.  No clue.

[slycordinator]

It only says he's a founding member and drummer of the band. It doesn't say he's "the drummer."

Though I think it should've said former drummer just to avoid confusion.

[ariich]

I think "founding drummer" would be perfectly sufficient. It's completely accurate and doesn't lead to the ridiculous speculation that the current wording does.

[Lowdz]

Imagine a world in which Rush had that very same rule on lyric writing...(shudders)

And just a thought on the name issue, if there even is an issue. MP has statted h doesnt think the band should carry on without him. Maybe, hypothetically, he's fighting for the name to prevent the others using it, with no intention of using it himself.

[ReaPsTA]

I don't understand why Portnoy can't just write something that's accurate.  "Ex-drummer and one of the founding members of Dream Theater."  It's like every time he describes his role in the band he's trying to slip in some little piece of language that makes him look like he was the band.

@ Lawyers or people with legal knowledge:  If Portnoy uses the band's name as a negotiating chip, doesn't that look bad to a judge or an arbitrator?

General Thought:  I think a lot of this speculation is interesting and not impossible, but why is it being discussed like fact?

This is one of the reasons why it's in an entity's business to keep a lot of facts available.  Their fans/customers/whatever will simply make up their own it seems.

But as I try to de-dramatize the situation in my mind a question occurs - What are the lawyers fighting over at this point that could possibly be so complicated unless it's a really contentious issue?  So who knows what's happening.

[Nekov]

Imagine a world in which Rush had that very same rule on lyric writing...(shudders)

And just a thought on the name issue, if there even is an issue. MP has statted h doesnt think the band should carry on without him. Maybe, hypothetically, he's fighting for the name to prevent the others using it, with no intention of using it himself.

If Rush had the same rule it wouldn't be any problem there since Neil writes them all.....

[Lowdz]

Imagine a world in which Rush had that very same rule on lyric writing...(shudders)

And just a thought on the name issue, if there even is an issue. MP has statted h doesnt think the band should carry on without him. Maybe, hypothetically, he's fighting for the name to prevent the others using it, with no intention of using it himself.

If Rush had the same rule it wouldn't be any problem there since Neil writes them all.....

What I meant was that he wouldn't provide any if he had to include vocal melodies for his lyrics to be considered.

[ariich]

But as I try to de-dramatize the situation in my mind a question occurs - What are the lawyers fighting over at this point that could possibly be so complicated unless it's a really contentious issue?  So who knows what's happening.

Who says the lawyers are fighting over anything at all?

[Dream Team]

Imagine a world in which Rush had that very same rule on lyric writing...(shudders)

And just a thought on the name issue, if there even is an issue. MP has statted h doesnt think the band should carry on without him. Maybe, hypothetically, he's fighting for the name to prevent the others using it, with no intention of using it himself.

If Rush had the same rule it wouldn't be any problem there since Neil writes them all.....

What I meant was that he wouldn't provide any if he had to include vocal melodies for his lyrics to be considered.

That's great, except we've already established that that's not the reason, it's because he wasn't submitting them in finished form.

[theusualmadness]

I am not reading into this and this is strictly FYI.

Mike Portnoy is now friends with Marco Minnemann in Facebook.

[Nekov]

Mike Portnoy is now my friend in Facebook. I'll be drumming for DT now!!!

[theusualmadness]

Mike Portnoy is now my friend in Facebook. I'll be drumming for DT now!!!

Actual no. It is his personal facebook page. Unless, you know him personally.