Change in DT's Sound

[Tunnel Vision]

A friend of mine is doing a report on a topic of his choice, and decided to write about how Dream Theater's sound has changed with each new member. I was hoping you guys could discuss this and come up with a few ideas to start. I think he wants to focus on how DT's style has changed with the joining of JLB, then Derek, and finally Jordan.

My first thoughts were that JLB's range allowed DT to write different vocal melodies from Charlie.
I actually had no clue on how Derek affected DT's sound.
And lastly, my initial thoughts on what Jordan brought to the band was experimentation with many new instruments.

[jsem]

and the iphone solos...

[Anjohl Tennan]

The Derek era is a hard one be it that it was also the era in which DT was being pushed to become more commercial.  I really don't think that it could be said that there was a real Derek era.

[Tunnel Vision]

Yea the derek era will be hard to figure out. The first thought that popped into my mind was how DT was pushed to be more commercial, but that wasn't derek's fault at all. Instead it was just the label's doing.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

I think in the Derek era, the keyboards were used less for soloing purposes, and moreso to add to the general feel of the music.

[ReaPsTA]

DT clearly "rocked" the most when Derek was in the band.  Before DT, he played in and listened to more classic rock type music, and the band as a whole slowly adjusted to match it.  First ACOS sounded less like I&W keyboard-wise, then Raise the Knife had some Kansas influences thrown in, and by FII they were doing Peruvian Skies (very Floyd/Metallica), lines in the Sand (very Jazzy almost), Anna Lee, and very groovy stuff like ToT.

The label's influence on FII's sound is overrated.  Listen to the demos.  Certainly some fundamental differences, but also some fundamental similarities.  DS's keyboard sounds were the most raw sounding in comparison to JR and KM (in the studio.  Live it's tough to judge).

[ZKX-2099]

Make sure to illustrate how Dream Theater has kept their sound relevant with the changing  sound of mainstream metal.

[Rafael Guerra]

Is that "report" called Extended Essay by any chance?  Bad memories.
It would be nice for him to leave the question open-ended to how (if at all) the new drummer might affect DT's sound too.

[Tunnel Vision]

Is that "report" called Extended Essay by any chance?  Bad memories.

Haha, no it's not called extended essay, but in the end he said it must be between 8 to 10 pages...so I guess you could call it extended essay!

[Amoniz]

James joining the band:
DT adapted his vocal range into the songs, and particularly writing sections (solos, melodies) which would fit his. Examples are, Learning to Live & Innocence Faded, which include parts that are driven by LaBrie's higher notes.

Derek joining:
He brought his 'hard-rock' attitude, therefore resulting in a more hard rocking sounds yet a softer atmosphere (comparing the dark tone of Awake) in FII songs, such as in Just let me breathe, Lines in the sand, New Millenium. More 'bluesy/pentatonic' keyboard parts + different ambient approach particularly in songs like Raise the knife, Trial of tears & in the outro of You not me - something that I think has been somehow reduced in DT's Jordan-era music.

Jordan joining:
He brought the technical/proggy attitude along; more complicated keyboard parts, melodic piano moments, and somehow less ambience, & more improvision. So Jordan's presence has boosted the technical aspect of DT. And in BC&SL I think Jordan has managed to capture the more atmospheric approach of Kevin.

[Perpetual Change]

My feeling on this is if he's allowed to do his report on DT, it probably doesn't matter all that much. To make it fun, he could treat RichWilson's book as a primary source, and cite the posts of Samsara, Reap, bosk, Nick and others as if they're the important Dream Theater scholars of the day.

[rumborak]

From a musician's perspective, my impression is the following:

KM:
1. (Inevitably) somewhat dated keyboard sounds due to low budget and it being late 80s
2. Trying to add another "angle" to the sound when possible, by adding poignant counter movements and motifs. Allude to chords, not explicitly play them out.
3. Strong focus on mood generation of the song

DS:
1. Very guitar-oriented soloing, with distorted keyboard leads
2. Complex Jazz/fusion chords (which considering Planet X is also his style overall)
3. Playing to the song, not the instrument. That is, he often stepped back to let his instrument only subtly influence the sound of the song

JR:
1. More "keyboardy" lead sounds that clearly differentiate from the guitar sound
2. More straight-forward chords with bass inversions, and specifically arpeggiation of those chords
3. Influence of the keyboard is on direct par with the guitar in the overall sound

IMHO.

So, to give an explicit example, let's assume the song calls for an A minor. The bass is playing an A, the guitar plays an A5 (i.e. no third).

KM: Will play a small motif of three notes, including a C (to make the minor clear) and an octave higher a B, to give it a weird character.
DS: Will play explicitly the chord, but maybe make it a Am7#11
JR: Will play an Am7 arpeggiated, first regular octave, the next higher octave


rumborak

[PixelDream]

From a musician's perspective, my impression is the following:

KM:
1. (Inevitably) somewhat dated keyboard sounds due to low budget and it being late 80s
2. Trying to add another "angle" to the sound when possible, by adding poignant counter movements and motifs. Allude to chords, not explicitly play them out.
3. Strong focus on mood generation of the song

DS:
1. Very guitar-oriented soloing, with distorted keyboard leads
2. Complex Jazz/fusion chords (which considering Planet X is also his style overall)
3. Playing to the song, not the instrument. That is, he often stepped back to let his instrument only subtly influence the sound of the song

JR:
1. More "keyboardy" lead sounds that clearly differentiate from the guitar sound
2. More straight-forward chords with bass inversions, and specifically arpeggiation of those chords
3. Influence of the keyboard is on direct par with the guitar in the overall sound

IMHO.

So, to give an explicit example, let's assume the song calls for an A minor. The bass is playing an A, the guitar plays an A5 (i.e. no third).

KM: Will play a small motif of three notes, including a C (to make the minor clear) and an octave higher a B, to give it a weird character.
DS: Will play explicitly the chord, but maybe make it a Am7#11
JR: Will play an Am7 arpeggiated, first regular octave, the next higher octave


rumborak

Excellent write up rumborak. And I really enjoyed the jazzy feel in DS's piano parts. Like all keyboardists for different reasons, but I enjoy KM the most (on the studio records). I think JR is the best live keyboardist for the band.

[Ħ]

James joining the band:
DT adapted his vocal range into the songs, and particularly writing sections (solos, melodies) which would fit his. Examples are, Learning to Live & Innocence Faded, which include parts that are driven by LaBrie's higher notes.

All of Images and Words was written before they had even heard of James.

[Amoniz]

James joining the band:
DT adapted his vocal range into the songs, and particularly writing sections (solos, melodies) which would fit his. Examples are, Learning to Live & Innocence Faded, which include parts that are driven by LaBrie's higher notes.

All of Images and Words was written before they had even heard of James.

I was referring to the Awake recording sessions as well. (-> Innocence faded)

[Chino]

Tell him to write about JP shape changing into a bear.

[bosk1]

James joining the band:
DT adapted his vocal range into the songs, and particularly writing sections (solos, melodies) which would fit his. Examples are, Learning to Live & Innocence Faded, which include parts that are driven by LaBrie's higher notes.

All of Images and Words was written before they had even heard of James.

Unless I am remembering the details wrong, I don't think that is the case.  Some songs (e.g. Metropolis) were written long before James joined.  Others were written after he joined.  So it was a mixed bag, unless my memory is incorrect.  Check the liner notes for the I&W demos.  It pretty much outlines the process there for each song.

[Rina]

James joining the band:
DT adapted his vocal range into the songs, and particularly writing sections (solos, melodies) which would fit his. Examples are, Learning to Live & Innocence Faded, which include parts that are driven by LaBrie's higher notes.

Derek joining:
He brought his 'hard-rock' attitude, therefore resulting in a more hard rocking sounds yet a softer atmosphere (comparing the dark tone of Awake) in FII songs, such as in Just let me breathe, Lines in the sand, New Millenium. More 'bluesy/pentatonic' keyboard parts + different ambient approach particularly in songs like Raise the knife, Trial of tears & in the outro of You not me - something that I think has been somehow reduced in DT's Jordan-era music.

Jordan joining:
He brought the technical/proggy attitude along; more complicated keyboard parts, melodic piano moments, and somehow less ambience, & more improvision. So Jordan's presence has boosted the technical aspect of DT. And in BC&SL I think Jordan has managed to capture the more atmospheric approach of Kevin.

This is a good summary. And yeah, I think the atmospheric effect came in with BC+SL. Also, awesome post Rumbo, you have a good ear for this kind of stuff. 

[Ħ]

James joining the band:
DT adapted his vocal range into the songs, and particularly writing sections (solos, melodies) which would fit his. Examples are, Learning to Live & Innocence Faded, which include parts that are driven by LaBrie's higher notes.

All of Images and Words was written before they had even heard of James.

Unless I am remembering the details wrong, I don't think that is the case.  Some songs (e.g. Metropolis) were written long before James joined.  Others were written after he joined.  So it was a mixed bag, unless my memory is incorrect.  Check the liner notes for the I&W demos.  It pretty much outlines the process there for each song.

Oh ok.  I don't have it but I trust your memory.

[Perpetual Change]

From a musician's perspective, my impression is the following:

KM:
1. (Inevitably) somewhat dated keyboard sounds due to low budget and it being late 80s
2. Trying to add another "angle" to the sound when possible, by adding poignant counter movements and motifs. Allude to chords, not explicitly play them out.
3. Strong focus on mood generation of the song

DS:
1. Very guitar-oriented soloing, with distorted keyboard leads
2. Complex Jazz/fusion chords (which considering Planet X is also his style overall)
3. Playing to the song, not the instrument. That is, he often stepped back to let his instrument only subtly influence the sound of the song

JR:
1. More "keyboardy" lead sounds that clearly differentiate from the guitar sound
2. More straight-forward chords with bass inversions, and specifically arpeggiation of those chords
3. Influence of the keyboard is on direct par with the guitar in the overall sound

IMHO.

So, to give an explicit example, let's assume the song calls for an A minor. The bass is playing an A, the guitar plays an A5 (i.e. no third).

KM: Will play a small motif of three notes, including a C (to make the minor clear) and an octave higher a B, to give it a weird character.
DS: Will play explicitly the chord, but maybe make it a Am7#11
JR: Will play an Am7 arpeggiated, first regular octave, the next higher octave


rumborak

This is a fantastic post. The only thing I'd add is Jordan's multi-tracking. While Kevin might have had 2 or three keyboard sounds going at once, Derek seemed to stick with one patch at a time and Jordan sometimes brings an electronic orchestra with him. I'd love to hear someone record a companion MP3 to this too. It'd be awesome. It might even be awesome to record how Derek of Kevin might have played some of the Black Clouds parts over the stems.

[ReaPsTA]

Derek seemed to stick with one patch at a time

Not true.  Quite a bit of FII is multitracked.  Was Derek's multitracking as extensive as JR's?  No way.  But pay attention, the layers are there.

[chaotic_ripper]

The difference is that JR is better at recreating those multitracked(?) parts live, where as DS wasn't. But I think that gave some of Derek's live performances some character.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The difference is that JR is better at recreating those multitracked(?) parts live, where as DS wasn't. But I think that gave some of Derek's live performances some character.

Take into account JR greatly depends on XXI century technology to reproduce such things. If DS played a show with DT nowadays with one of the powerful workstations JR employs (Korg OASYS, Roland FANTOM, etc.), he'd do fine with playing the complex keyboard layers found in most of DT's recordings.