One thing I've noticed about Octavarium (NO NUGGETS)...

[cyberdrummer]

As an album which is part of the so-called modern DT era, I've always noticed that Octavarium gets (in my opinion unfairly) criticised, and lumped together with Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds as an example of the common criticisms (e.g. unnecessary wankery, bad lyrics) people often make about about modern DT. It is sometimes cited as the turning point in DT's output (i.e. 'where it all went wrong').

I've never really understood this, because, to me, 8V has a completely different approach and feel to SC and BC&SL. So basically, I wanted to find out other people's views on whether they think 8V fits into the same category as the two later albums.

Also, 8V is a horribly underrated album, so appreciate it.  

[hefdaddy42]

It doesn't have the same problems as the other modern releases, with the exception of questionable lyrics.

It's got other problems instead, lol.

[BRGM]

No I love 8vm! <Appricieaoeiaiastiateitasittes> The first DT album I heard, will allways be one of my favs

[Rafael Guerra]

I love Octavarium. The title track and These Walls are amongst my personal TOP 20 for sure.

[Dr. DTVT]

It doesn't have the same problems as the other modern releases, with the exception of questionable lyrics.

It's got other problems instead, lol.

This.  8vm has not aged well, particularly of late for me.  As recently as 9 months ago, I had it as their 4th best album, I've since dropped it to 6th.  It's hard to put my finger on, but none of the songs seem as interesting as they once were, including the title track.  It just lacks raw emotion of the early albums, which is probably why "These Walls" has always been my second favorite song on the album.  The earnesty and passion of their best albums just seem to be lacking in retrospect in 8vm.  Saying its their 6th best album is kind of like hitting 6th in the all-star game...you're still awesome, you're just not good enough to hit lead off or clean-up in a star packed lineup.

[robwebster]

Could be completely off here, but I've said it before and I stand by it.

Not that long ago - say, four years? - Six Degrees was the scrappy of the discography. Maybe not the scrappy, but one of the more controversial installments. People criticised Misunderstood to no end, they criticised The Great Debate almost as much, and it was oft said that Six Degrees was twice as long as ACOS and half as good and an inflated testament to everything that was overblown, pretentious, and fundamentally wrong about modern DT. There was still a lot of positivity about, of course, but there was a very real and toxic current of animosity. Yet, over time, it's gradually found itself being reevaluated, and now it's almost on the same level as Images and Words, Awake, and Scenes - as the recent poll suggests.

Since then, people have softened to Train of Thought to an extent, too. Used to be universally hailed as execrable, but I'm seeing a lot of slightly warmer opinions. Not that many yet, and it'll probably never be held in the same regard as SDOIT due to its very single-minded approach, but perspectives are changing.

I'm not entirely sure why that is. Perhaps it's 'cause the people who were genuinely put off by TOT have since left the fanbase, and been replaced by new fans. Maybe it's just 'cause the albums take a good four years to decay from an omen into an artifact. When it's released, it's fair to react by going "oh god, are all their albums going to sound like this from now on?" - whereas further down the line, that's no longer a hazard. But it's a slow change of direction. There's no single moment in which it goes from "meh" to "classic," but the sands are shifting. It's like a big ship turning; this staunch, rusty titan starting to swing around, little by little.

I'd say that ToT's mid re-evaluation. Although, maybe I'm being a little premature, but it must have turned by at least, ohhh, 25 degrees? But Octavarium's nozzle's already turning. It's a tiny, anecdotal sample, and it may have only revolved by a couple of degrees itself, but I'm starting to see it at the start of a few more top tens, nowadays. I predict good things for it in the next couple of years.

[ZBomber]

Not a fan of the album itself. I have a hard time sitting through it.

The title track is awesome though, as is The Root of All Evil. Might be one of my least listened to DT albums though.

[LKap13]

Could be completely off here, but I've said it before and I stand by it.

Not that long ago - say, four years? - Six Degrees was the scrappy of the discography. Maybe not the scrappy, but one of the more controversial installments. People criticised Misunderstood to no end, they criticised The Great Debate almost as much, and it was oft said that Six Degrees was twice as long as ACOS and half as good and an inflated testament to everything that was overblown, pretentious, and fundamentally wrong about modern DT. There was still a lot of positivity about, of course, but there was a very real and toxic current of animosity. Yet, over time, it's gradually found itself being reevaluated, and now it's almost on the same level as Images and Words, Awake, and Scenes - as the recent poll suggests.

Since then, people have softened to Train of Thought to an extent, too. Used to be universally hailed as execrable, but I'm seeing a lot of slightly warmer opinions. Not that many yet, and it'll probably never be held in the same regard as SDOIT due to its very single-minded approach, but perspectives are changing.

I'm not entirely sure why that is. Perhaps it's 'cause the people who were genuinely put off by TOT have since left the fanbase, and been replaced by new fans. Maybe it's just 'cause the albums take a good four years to decay from an omen into an artifact. When it's released, it's fair to react by going "oh god, are all their albums going to sound like this from now on?" - whereas further down the line, that's no longer a hazard. But it's a slow change of direction. There's no single moment in which it goes from "meh" to "classic," but the sands are shifting. It's like a big ship turning; this staunch, rusty titan starting to swing around, little by little.

I'd say that ToT's mid re-evaluation. Although, maybe I'm being a little premature, but it must have turned by at least, ohhh, 25 degrees? But Octavarium's nozzle's already turning. It's a tiny, anecdotal sample, and it may have only revolved by a couple of degrees itself, but I'm starting to see it at the start of a few more top tens, nowadays. I predict good things for it in the next couple of years.

Very interesting.

I think there's some good stuff on Octavarium. That said, I do feel that the structure of the tracks on 8VM are more similar to SC and BC&CL than to previous albums; there is less of a "free-form" approach and more of a "structured song" approach to 8VM's tracks (with the exception of the title track of course). I tend to think that Train of Thought was the turning point, though it maintained a similar quality and approach to song structure as previous albums.

[juice]

Octavarium is awesome and it was the album that got me into DT so I appreciate it.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Weird... Octavarium has the least wankery out of every one of their albums.

And really, out of the 3 mentioned, it is my least favourite. I just find it's a patchy album. Octavarium is absolutely stunning, Sacrificed Sons and The Root Of All Evil are great, and These Walls isn't bad, but the rest I find isn't so good.

[LKap13]

As far as "wankery" is concerned, I would say that Systematic Chaos wins the prize. However, the wanking parts of The Dark Eternal Night, Ministry of Lost Souls and ITPOE pt. 2 are the highlights of the album for me!

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

As far as "wankery" is concerned, I would say that Systematic Chaos wins the prize. However, the wanking parts of and The Dark Eternal Night, Ministry of Lost Souls and ITPOE pt. 2 are the highlights of the album for me!

The thing about the "wankery" on SC is that it is controlled. Now take Train Of Thought, that's the wankery people don't like.

[robwebster]

As far as "wankery" is concerned, I would say that Systematic Chaos wins the prize. However, the wanking parts of and The Dark Eternal Night, Ministry of Lost Souls and ITPOE pt. 2 are the highlights of the album for me!

Gotta agree! SC does have a lot of wanking, but it's very melodic. TDEN's instrumental section is like they spliced The Dance of Eternity into a catchy metal song, but it's very rhythmic and hummable.

ITPoE on the other hand is the only moment on the album where I lose attention. Love the entire song - both parts - 'cept the instrumental section in P2.

[orcus116]

As far as "wankery" is concerned, I would say that Systematic Chaos wins the prize. However, the wanking parts of and The Dark Eternal Night, Ministry of Lost Souls and ITPOE pt. 2 are the highlights of the album for me!

The thing about the "wankery" on SC is that it is controlled. Now take Train Of Thought, that's the wankery people don't like.

They're of the same brand in my eyes. I'm sure there's a method to their madness but almost all spots where they've gone into technical overdrive since TOT I'd be hard pressed to find something I like. The only two sections they've done in that time frame that I'd personally consider tastefully written and executed are Internals from "Octavarium" and the very beginning of "The Count Of Tuscany". They're the only two instrumental/technical madhouses that have actually felt necessary.

[MykeHavoc]

8VM is a fantastic record. Its my fourth favorite in the catalog. I think it has all the bases covered and was a nice bounce back after what to me is a weaker release (Train of Thought). I like the melodic and progressive elements and feel there's a great overall balance represented.

[goo-goo]

For me 8V is a hit and miss album. These Walls is a song I could listen over and over, interesting lyrics, great guitar solo, good song structure. The Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons, and I walk Beside You are also enjoyable. Panic Attack and 8V (song) are the songs that I just skip. I don't listen to it often but it's ok. Its definitely better than Systematic Chaos. As far as BC goes, well, I love most of the music but the lyrics are just weak imo. The last albums have been missing something (ie. BC missed good lyrics; SC cheesy lyrics, so so music; 8V good music, acceptable lyrics). For me Six Degrees (Disc 1) has been the album that I have enjoyed more since SC, BC, etc have been released. It has interesting and deep lyrics (at least deeper than the latest efforts), great song structure and experimentation, most progressive sounding, and great disc length (around 60 mins, disc 1). I Think DT sometimes forces themselves to write 79 mins of music, for which they could easily cut some 10 from the latest releases..

[LKap13]

For me Six Degrees (Disc 1) has been the album that I have enjoyed more since SC, BC, etc have been released.

I'm confused, what does Six Degrees have to do with SC and BC in terms of time-frame?

[goo-goo]

For me Six Degrees (Disc 1) has been the album that I have enjoyed more since SC, BC, etc have been released.

I'm confused, what does Six Degrees have to do with SC and BC in terms of time-frame?

Sometimes BC and SC feel dragging. That's what I was trying to say.

[Gadough]

8VM is a fantastic record. I think it has all the bases covered and was a nice bounce back after what to me is a weaker release (Train of Thought). I like the melodic and progressive elements and feel there's a great overall balance represented.

Sums it up perfectly.

[Nick]

I love Octavarium. The title track and These Walls are amongst my personal TOP 20 for sure.

The problem is, the stellar material ends right there, in my opinion. Sacrificed Sons and Root are pretty neat, and the other four tracks are GOOD, but only those two really stand out as something special to me.

[Slain]

I like the album, and like others have said, It's probably one of my least played DT albums. I really do like I Walk Beside You, but moreso because when I listened to it it really connected with something in my life at the time, you know, that sort of thing.

Best to Least Favorite:

Octavarium
Sacrificed Sons
The Root of All Evil
Panic Attack
I Walk Beside You
These Walls
Never Enough
The Answer Lies Within

[antigoon]

I think it's better than Train of Thought, Systematic Chaos, and Black Clouds. A really solid record in my book.

[setrataeso]

In my top 3 of their albums.
Unlike other people, I actually enjoy the less-popular songs on the album. The Answer Lies Within is really underrated song, and a nice ballad.
Never Enough gets a lot of flak, although not so much these days. Nowadays, it seems like people dont need to explain why Never Enough is disliked. I dig the sound and energy of it, though.
And, naturally Ocatavarium and The Root of All Evil are in my top 2 and 10 respectively.

I guess I find the album more consistent than others do.

[j]

It doesn't have the same problems as the other modern releases, with the exception of questionable lyrics.

It's got other problems instead, lol.

Absolutely this.

Title track and TROAE are great songs.  The rest isn't *bad*, it's just...uninteresting and forgettable, for the most part.  Each song has some great highlights, but none of them are very good as a whole, IMO.

To me, Train of Thought is the "turning point", but I lack the musical knowledge to articulate why that is.  I just like the music on ToT less than any previous album, and lately I rank it practically even with SC dead last in DT's discography.  Octavarium shares the decline in overall "quality" even though it doesn't really share the same weaknesses as ToT or SC.  It's definitely a couple notches above those two albums though, as is BC&SL.

-J

[Jamesman42]

I lump DT albums in my mind like this, era-wise:

WDADU

IaW
Awake
ACOS (I know, but still)

FII

SFAM
SDOIT
TOT
8VM

SC
BC&SL


I don't know, there is something of a stark difference between 8VM and SC. SC was like DT left the musical planet they were on (SFAM-8VM), landed on another planet and started exploiting it with their musical abilities, and BC&SL felt like they were starting to build a home on that other planet. If that makes any sense.

[KevShmev]

I agree with those talking about some of the songs not being that strong.  Sure, OV runs the gauntlet as far as what DT can do from a stylistic standpoint, but the problem is, a good number of the songs simply are not memorable.  In fact, aside from the title track and the very occasional listen to of "I Walk Beside You," I never listen to anything from this record anymore.

[LKap13]

I lump DT albums in my mind like this, era-wise:

WDADU

IaW
Awake
ACOS (I know, but still)

FII

SFAM
SDOIT
TOT
8VM

SC
BC&SL

Mine's similar, but we differ on the most relevant part:

WDADU

I&W
Awake

FII

SFAM
SDOIT

TOT

8VM
SC
BC&SL

[moffatt]

In my top 3 of their albums.
Unlike other people, I actually enjoy the less-popular songs on the album. The Answer Lies Within is really underrated song, and a nice ballad.
Never Enough gets a lot of flak, although not so much these days. Nowadays, it seems like people dont need to explain why Never Enough is disliked. I dig the sound and energy of it, though.
And, naturally Ocatavarium and The Root of All Evil are in my top 2 and 10 respectively.

I guess I find the album more consistent than others do.

Well said, I agree with most of that.

Octavarium is my top DT album as I love the diversity in it. I love every song on that album.

[BRGM]

I lump DT albums in my mind like this, era-wise:

WDADU

IaW
Awake
ACOS (I know, but still)

FII

SFAM
SDOIT
TOT
8VM

SC
BC&SL

Mine's similar, but we differ on the most relevant part:

WDADU

I&W
Awake

FII

SFAM
SDOIT

TOT

8VM
SC
BC&SL

I'd say

WDADU

I&W
Awake

FII

SFAM
SDOIT

TOT
8VM

SC
BC&SL

Allthough..it's pretty hard, cuz I also think that 8VM is in the SC era also...but tot isn't..and tot is with SDOIT...but 8vm isn't...woaow

[Perpetual Change]

Octavarium is one of the best DT songs ever, if not THE best. Sacrificed Sons, These Walls, and The Root of All Evil are all great. Panic Attack and Never enough are pretty solid. The only songs I don't like at all are The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You. So, overall, I'd say Octavarium is a very strong album.

As far as "wankery" is concerned, I would say that Systematic Chaos wins the prize. However, the wanking parts of and The Dark Eternal Night, Ministry of Lost Souls and ITPOE pt. 2 are the highlights of the album for me!

The thing about the "wankery" on SC is that it is controlled. Now take Train Of Thought, that's the wankery people don't like.

They're of the same brand in my eyes. I'm sure there's a method to their madness but almost all spots where they've gone into technical overdrive since TOT I'd be hard pressed to find something I like. The only two sections they've done in that time frame that I'd personally consider tastefully written and executed are Internals from "Octavarium" and the very beginning of "The Count Of Tuscany". They're the only two instrumental/technical madhouses that have actually felt necessary.

I don't get these kinds of opinions, though I know that they're out there and that you're not the only one. Train of Thought is the wankiest by far.

[hefdaddy42]

I love Octavarium. The title track and These Walls are amongst my personal TOP 20 for sure.

The problem is, the stellar material ends right there, in my opinion. Sacrificed Sons and Root are pretty neat, and the other four tracks are GOOD, but only those two really stand out as something special to me.

This exactly.

[Zydar]

Octavarium is not one of my absolute favourites from them, but I kinda want their next album to be more like it (epic, grand, and melodic) instead of the more full on metal approach we've gotten on SC and BCSL.

My favourites on Octavarium is TROAE and Sacrified Sons, but I'm not that fully excited over the title track that many here are.

[TL]

I've always liked Octavarium. It has a great, inexplicable vibe to it.

[TAC]

I actually think the title track is DT's best written song.

[Dublagent66]

It's a really good album.  I like most of it with the exception of Never Enough and of course the title track is one of their best endeavours of total epicness.