Dream Theater Album Production

[wolfking]

One of the issues I have with the band's last three efforts has been the way the music "sounds". This is not necessarily the band's fault, it may just be a product of the times, but the albums sound over-produced. I think Awake and Falling into Infinity sound the best in terms of production quality; both of those albums sound very organic, unlike the new stuff that sounds very "electronic".
I wonder how the band's new material would sound if it was produced in the mid 90's , and with Petrucci's Ibanez.

Do you have anything good to say about the band?

Hey man I love Dream Theater as much as anyone else here. These were just two topics that were floating around in my head.
Anyway, what's your favorite dT material, wolfking?

Fair enough mate, maybe I was a little harsh.

Awake, SFAM and TOT are my favourite DT albums.

[Seventh Son]

One of the issues I have with the band's last three efforts has been the way the music "sounds". This is not necessarily the band's fault, it may just be a product of the times, but the albums sound over-produced. I think Awake and Falling into Infinity sound the best in terms of production quality; both of those albums sound very organic, unlike the new stuff that sounds very "electronic".
I wonder how the band's new material would sound if it was produced in the mid 90's , and with Petrucci's Ibanez.

Do you have anything good to say about the band?

Hey man I love Dream Theater as much as anyone else here. These were just two topics that were floating around in my head.
Anyway, what's your favorite dT material, wolfking?

Fair enough mate, maybe I was a little harsh.

Awake, SFAM and TOT are my favourite DT albums.

Oddly enough, I'm not too fond of the production on Scenes. Its not terrible, but it lacks a certain something, but I can't really put my finger on it.

[wolfking]

Interesting, never had a problem with it myself.

[Seventh Son]

Interesting, never had a problem with it myself.

Its weird with me. Its probably why Scenes is my #5 overall (ib4rage). Its a great album, but I can't help but feel its missing something to its production.

[Perpetual Change]

Scenes just sounds bland. It's easily one of the band's worst sounding albums (for its time, I mean). You don't notice it right away, of course, but listen to any other decently budgeted album from that era that you own and then listen to Scenes.

Some of the songs were remixed by Shirley later on, and those sound better. But the Botrill mixes are just terrible.

[LKap13]

Scenes has always been the album that I forget about. I don't know if it's the production or something else, but it doesn't have the same magical appeal that I&W, Awake, SDOiT, TOT have (and 70% of FII). When I look at the the album's list of songs, I'm always like "Wow this is an amazing collection", but somehow I'm never touched like I would expect to be.
In writing this, I've realized that SFAM will be this month's albums for me hehe...
Standout tracks: Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu, Finally Free, Beyond this Life instrumental section

[Darkes7]

Well, writing an answer to the above would inevitably result in a massive wall of text so I'll just put it the shortest I can - that I obviously disagree 300%.

Scenes just sounds bland. It's easily one of the band's worst sounding albums (for its time, I mean). You don't notice it right away, of course, but listen to any other decently budgeted album from that era that you own and then listen to Scenes.

Some of the songs were remixed by Shirley later on, and those sound better. But the Botrill mixes are just terrible.

SFAM has basically perfect production and it sounds like if it took everything that's the best from both modern sound and older sound. It's right in between and there's not a single weakness I could think of. I know many albums released at that time, and it slays them all, and probably also massive majority of everything in 50 years scale.

[Zook]

What do you mean 'some of the songs'? The whole album was mixed by Shirley at the last minute. But I agree, the album is muffled compared to other DT albums. But Octavarium is their worst sounding album not including WDADU.

[Darkes7]

It's quite interesting how many different things can you learn, even if you've been absolutely certain for many years that it's exactly the opposite.

[Zook]

No one else thinks James' vocals sound weird on Octavarium?

[Perpetual Change]

No, the whole thing wasn't redone by Shirley. Here's an excerpt from Lifting Shadows.

...it proved impossible for (Shirley) to complete the entire album for the strict deadline. Consequently, four of the tracks ... were untouched by Shirley and remained in their original form on the finished product."

Basically, if you've read Lifting Shadows, you'd know that John P wasn't really happy at all with the original Botrill mix. If you listen to those songs left untouched, especially One Last Time, you can really tell how its of inferior quality to other DT mixes. The book also suggest that there wasn't a whole lot Shirley could do with the album as it was presented to him nearly finished, hence why it doesn't sound nearly as good as FII or Scenes.

No one else thinks James' vocals sound weird on Octavarium?

I think he sounds great.

[Nic35]

No one else thinks James' vocals sound weird on Octavarium?

They have an electric sound, especially on SS.

[Zook]

Oh well I'm nowhere that part of the book, but I'm just going by what it says in the CD booklet and what I've read elsewhere.

[Seventh Son]

Well, writing an answer to the above would inevitably result in a massive wall of text so I'll just put it the shortest I can - that I obviously disagree 300%.

Scenes just sounds bland. It's easily one of the band's worst sounding albums (for its time, I mean). You don't notice it right away, of course, but listen to any other decently budgeted album from that era that you own and then listen to Scenes.

Some of the songs were remixed by Shirley later on, and those sound better. But the Botrill mixes are just terrible.

SFAM has basically perfect production and it sounds like if it took everything that's the best from both modern sound and older sound. It's right in between and there's not a single weakness I could think of. I know many albums released at that time, and it slays them all, and probably also massive majority of everything in 50 years scale.

I know Death/Black metal albums that I consider to have superior production and were released around that time, but its probably for different reason. What I consider appropriate production for Death or Black metal is vastly different than what I consider appropriate for Dream Theater (After all, "In the Nightside Eclipse"'s production is absolutely flawless to me, but it wouldn't really work for something like DT imo). That being said, something about the production knocks Scenes down a few notches. Its a great album, don't get me wrong, but I don't necessarily hail it to be their magnum opus either.

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah. I have the same issue with Scenes that I have with most of the mid-90's Fates Warning albums. It doesn't sound bad. It should just sound a heck of a lot better given the age when it was recorded.

[orcus116]

I decide to leave out the rest for obvious reasons, but this I can't. Can I ask if you have the same "Systematic Chaos"?

I seriously cannot recall a single bassline outside of the opening to ITPOE Pt. 2. Myung was absolutely buried in the mix throughout the rest of the album.

[Adami]

I decide to leave out the rest for obvious reasons, but this I can't. Can I ask if you have the same "Systematic Chaos"?

I seriously cannot recall a single bassline outside of the opening to ITPOE Pt. 2. Myung was absolutely buried in the mix throughout the rest of the album.

Constant Motion has the whole bridge which starts with lead bass. Repentence has pretty audible bass, but that's only because Myung is playing with a pick and is distorted over clean guitars. I can't think of any more off the top of my head though.

[orcus116]

You know what I mean, though. Most other albums you can at least pick him out in the mix at any given time. You have to work hard to even pick him up throughout SC.

[TL]

One thing I've learned from this thread is that Darkes7 has a very strange idea of "good production".
I love Scenes, but the production could have been much better. Awake and FII had much better mastering than SFAM, so it shouldn't have been a problem at that point. For the era, it's certainly not Explorers Club bad (seriously, mixing/mastering on Age Of Impact is downright embarassing for an album that came out when it did), but it's a bit muffled and flat.

Octavarium is the hardest to pin down. There are some things about the production that I like. It has an interesting vibe throughout most of the album. At times though, I can't help but wish that it had more breathing room.

[Darkes7]

You know what I mean, though. Most other albums you can at least pick him out in the mix at any given time. You have to work hard to even pick him up throughout SC.

And you can do the same on SC. The bass is far more audible than on BC&SL without doubt.

One thing I've learned from this thread is that Darkes7 has a very strange idea of "good production".
I love Scenes, but the production could have been much better. Awake and FII had much better mastering than SFAM, so it shouldn't have been a problem at that point. For the era, it's certainly not Explorers Club bad (seriously, mixing/mastering on Age Of Impact is downright embarassing for an album that came out when it did), but it's a bit muffled and flat.

Octavarium is the hardest to pin down. There are some things about the production that I like. It has an interesting vibe throughout most of the album. At times though, I can't help but wish that it had more breathing room.

My favourite... If you think I have a strange idea of a good production, then at least do something that nobody of around 5 posters claiming the same thing as you bothered to do - which is explaining what exactly is wrong with the production of SFAM. And no, general and saying nothing stuff like "flat" or "could have sounded better" doesn't mean anything.

[KevShmev]

 They sound like a modern record is supposed to sound  

Compressed to death and sonically lacking in any real dynamics?  Because that is what the average modern record sounds like, sadly.  

You realise your post screams "let's ignore the point"?

No, it doesn't.  But feel free to ignore my valid point all you want, since it conflicts with yours.  Let me help you out here:

-The thread is about the production of DT's albums.
-You commented that their current records sound modern.
-I replied with pointing out how the average modern record sounds compressed and lacks in any real dynamics, like the more recent DT records.

Completely on topic.  Follow?

SFAM has basically perfect production and it sounds like if it took everything that's the best from both modern sound and older sound. It's right in between and there's not a single weakness I could think of. I know many albums released at that time, and it slays them all, and probably also massive majority of everything in 50 years scale.

I am at a loss for words.  You can't actually think that.  I would think that as a fan of Porcupine Tree, you would be able to recognize when a record sounds great (from a production standpoint) and when one doesn't sound great.  And no, I am not saying DT records should sound just like PT records, so don't even try going down that road.

If you think I have a strange idea of a good production, then at least do something that nobody of around 5 posters claiming the same thing as you bothered to do - which is explaining what exactly is wrong with the production of SFAM. And no, general and saying nothing stuff like "flat" or "could have sounded better" doesn't mean anything.

Flat and muffled is an accurate description of how SFAM sounds...at times.  At times, the production simply lacks punch, resulting in a flat and muffled sound.  Off the top of my head, "Overture 1928" is the worst offender in this area.  There are parts where it sounds like the keyboards are straining to be heard, as if they are being swallowed by the other instruments; the first time the main Metropolis melody comes in is a good example of this.  I noticed that the very first time I ever listened to the CD.  Later on, when the keyboard plays that melody again, the drums (specifically, the cymbals) are way too loud; the keyboard should have been up front and center there, not being drowned out by the cymbals.  And then when the guitar lead comes in right after that, it is like a switch was hit where all of a sudden the volume level of the instruments all change.  The transition sonically should have been seamless, but it is choppy and rough.  Not trying to nitpick, but you asked, so there it is.  And that is just one example.  

Don't get me wrong, I love Scenes... to death, but the sound and production is very flawed.  And I have listened to it MANY TIMES over the years on real stereos (really good ones, too), so this is not the opinion of someone who always listens to it on an iPod or cheap computer speakers.

[Seventh Son]

I always felt like Home was a fairly big offender in terms of production.

[Plasmastrike]

You can't actually think.

[KevShmev]

Haha, whoops.  That was supposed to read, "You can't actually think that."

[Darkes7]

 They sound like a modern record is supposed to sound  

Compressed to death and sonically lacking in any real dynamics?  Because that is what the average modern record sounds like, sadly.  

You realise your post screams "let's ignore the point"?

No, it doesn't.  But feel free to ignore my valid point all you want, since it conflicts with yours.  Let me help you out here:

-The thread is about the production of DT's albums.
-You commented that their current records sound modern.
-I replied with pointing out how the average modern record sounds compressed and lacks in any real dynamics, like the more recent DT records.

Completely on topic.  Follow?

It is on topic. It is unrelated to my post. I've already said more than one time that compression and no dynamics is something basically parallel and it doesn't mean that modern production = compression. You mentioned PT, The Incident has a 100% modern production and I think even you won't say it's overcompressed... But then, I don't think so I'm probably wrong.

SFAM has basically perfect production and it sounds like if it took everything that's the best from both modern sound and older sound. It's right in between and there's not a single weakness I could think of. I know many albums released at that time, and it slays them all, and probably also massive majority of everything in 50 years scale.

I am at a loss for words.  You can't actually think.  I would think that as a fan of Porcupine Tree, you would be able to recognize when a record sounds great (from a production standpoint) and when one doesn't sound great.  And no, I am not saying DT records should sound just like PT records, so don't even try going down that road.

You descended to the "u r a moron" style, nice one. I rated you higher than this.

If you think I have a strange idea of a good production, then at least do something that nobody of around 5 posters claiming the same thing as you bothered to do - which is explaining what exactly is wrong with the production of SFAM. And no, general and saying nothing stuff like "flat" or "could have sounded better" doesn't mean anything.

Flat and muffled is an accurate description of how SFAM sounds...at times.  At times, the production simply lacks punch, resulting in a flat and muffled sound.  Off the top of my head, "Overture 1928" is the worst offender in this area.  There are parts where it sounds like the keyboards are straining to be heard, as if they are being swallowed by the other instruments; the first time the main Metropolis melody comes in is a good example of this.  I noticed that the very first time I ever listened to the CD.  Later on, when the keyboard plays that melody again, the drums (specifically, the cymbals) are way too loud; the keyboard should have been up front and center there, not being drowned out by the cymbals.  And then when the guitar lead comes in right after that, it is like a switch was hit where all of a sudden the volume level of the instruments all change.  The transition sonically should have been seamless, but it is choppy and rough.  Not trying to nitpick, but you asked, so there it is.  And that is just one example.  

Don't get me wrong, I love Scenes... to death, but the sound and production is very flawed.  And I have listened to it MANY TIMES over the years on real stereos (really good ones, too), so this is not the opinion of someone who always listens to it on an iPod or cheap computer speakers.

Do you even have the same album? I've listened to it approximately 50 times on a decent stereo and just as many times on PC (and although listening on PC is listening on PC, I have some decent headphones anyway). I don't know where are the mysterious volume changes, anti-keyboard conspiracies and ear-bleeding drums, quite likely because they are not there. You're creating non-existing details and claim SFAM lacks punch and I remember you're one of those claiming I&W has an awesome production, and THAT is an album that lacks punch in every way. But ok, brb, I'm going to look for my brain now, it must be in this room somewhere...

Edit: oh, what a pity.

[tri.ad]

Oh, so we've arrived at the "let's hate on I&W" thing again?

You should give us something new for a change.

[orcus116]

Where the hell does I&W lack punch?

[Darkes7]

It was just a comparison, and a pretty obvious one. But I forgot, I just commited a sacrilege of the worst kind.

Where the hell does I&W lack punch?

More like, where does it have any?

[tri.ad]

[orcus116]

It was just a comparison, and a pretty obvious one. But I forgot, I just commited a sacrilege of the worst kind.

This is like your forum rape whistle.

[Plasmastrike]

This is getting fucking stupid.

[King Postwhore]

I second this.

[tri.ad]

@ orcus: More like the same bait he's been putting out for us about one hundred and fifty times before. Like I said, it's time for something new.

[orcus116]

We're oddly on topic though.

[tri.ad]

Yeah, but I'm still not taking it.