Metropolis Pt. 1 Instrumental is Fantastic

[OperantChamber]

I'm sure most people can agree that the instrumental section in Metropolis Pt. 1 is great, but why is it an instrumental section like the one in Endless Sacrifice hated?
*Runs.

[Jamesman42]

I don't know, I love both of them.

[Darkes7]

Personally I think the instrumental section in Metropolis somehow fits, while in Endless Sacrifice it's kinda out of place. Most of the song is quite dark and melancholic, and the instrumental section is just fast and technical.

[AwakeFromOctavarium]

Personally I think the instrumental section in Metropolis somehow fits, while in Endless Sacrifice it's kinda out of place. Most of the song is quite dark and melancholic, and the instrumental section is just fast and technical.

Were DT songs ever consistent? I love the instrumental section of Endless Sacrifice precisely because it presents an awesome transition.

[Jarlaxle]

I also dislike the Endless Sacrifice intrumental section. Seems too forced.

[LTE]

Endless Sacrifice would be better if they removed the solo tradeoff near the end of the instrumental section.

[perfey]

I don't know, I love both of them.

[Mladen]

Metropolis instrumental is phenomenal and their best in my opinion. Endless sacrifice has a cool instrumental portion, but it doesn't sound as original and spontaneous. Some good riffs, but I find it kinda repetitive. Still good, though.

[Dublagent66]

Metropolis Pt. 1 is a DT classic and the instrumental is a large part of that.  ES is a completely different animal.  Although I don't hate the ES instrumental, there really is no comparison.

[reneranucci]

I don't know, I love both of them.

[Ben_Jamin]

Other than the usual responses, which is what these past posts were. Why else is the instrumental in Endless Sacrifice so hated, when it fits the context of the song? It transitions perfectly into  and ending with that same heaviness. Personally Metropolis sounds less smooth and more a wankfest, it's probably cause it has the classic label meaning it's superior than the new.

[BRGM]

I really like both, The instrumental section in Metropolis is what makes that song listenable to me, but I must say that the Endless sacrifice instrumental section is better, so technical and hard and awesome, and unexpected, that's nice aswell.

[Darkes7]

I wouldn't have any problems with the Endless Sacrifice instrumental if it was in a different song, but here it just doesn't fit. The song has a strong atmosphere, and then the instrumental appears and kind of ruins it. It's not like e.g. The Ministry of Lost Souls where the instrumental actually sounds dramatic and fits well despite sounding quite different, here it's just... well, out of nowhere.

As for Metropolis, they have many better instrumentals, but it's just a good one and doesn't feel out of place.

[TL]

Metropolis pt.1, if I remember correctly, was originally written as an instrumental. That's why the instrumental portion fits as well as it does.
With Endless Sacrifice, I don't have a problem with the entire instrumental break; just a small portion of it. It's a moody, melodic song, and then in the middle of it, we get circus noises. It's seriously a handful of seconds that ruin that instrumental break for me.

[Marvellous G]

I find that with a lot of I&W (era) songs, the instrumental sections seemed like an intrinsic part of the song's identity, as opposed to simply an obligation by the band. If anything, the instrumental sections in Metropolis, Learning To Live and Under A Glass Moon are actually more memorable to me than the 'actual song' parts.

Conversely, in basically everything post (suprisingly, even to me as I realise it) Falling Into Infinity, the instrumental sections seem to simply be there largely for the sake of it. Sure, the sections in Home, Glass Prison, Misunderstood and Endless Sacrifice etc are very good, but they seem to play second fiddle to the more traditional sections of the songs they're in, whereas in the I&W-FII era the instrumental sections really felt like they had as much, if not probably more effort, put into them as the verses and choruses.

Just my two cents, and I suppose all of that's entirely subjective.

[BRGM]

I wouldn't have any problems with the Endless Sacrifice instrumental if it was in a different song, but here it just doesn't fit. The song has a strong atmosphere, and then the instrumental appears and kind of ruins it. It's not like e.g. The Ministry of Lost Souls where the instrumental actually sounds dramatic and fits well despite sounding quite different, here it's just... well, out of nowhere.

As for Metropolis, they have many better instrumentals, but it's just a good one and doesn't feel out of place.

I like it when stuff is like, out of nowehere, I think all this talk about that something doesn't "fit" is just ridicoulus

[bosk1]

For me, the problems with the ES instrumental section are (1) is isn't nearly as well constructed as, e.g., Metropolis and (2) it feels out of place in the song.

As for not being well contructed, I don't mean that it doesn't transition in and out of the song well.  The transitions are actually pretty good.  But it's very random and far too showy for the type of song it is in (which overlaps into point #2).  The instrumental section in Metropolis is also random and over the top, but it feels like it was constructed to sound that way, and in the context of the song, that mood fits.  Even if the ES instrumental section was very deliberately crafted to sound chaotic, it doesn't come across that way.  It just comes across as random.

And as far as fitting, as has been pointed out, the mood of ES is somewhat dark and extremely emotional.  It is about questioning one's life choices that keep him and his family apart and have taken a toll on the family relationship.  I realize the "feel" of an instrumental section is largely subjective, but the instrumental section doesn't feel to me like it fits that vibe at all.  I don't hate it, and I can appreciate it, but it detracts from the feeling the song is trying to create.

Personally Metropolis sounds less smooth and more a wankfest, it's probably cause it has the classic label meaning it's superior than the new.

Sorry, but honestly, that's just a dumb thing to say.  Something is not superior simply because it is old. 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Take our administrator, for example...

[Orbert]

Metropolis, Pt 1 is the one that started it all.  They were intentionally trying to get as nuts as they could, but still make it work.  I think they made it work.  Despite taking off and going completely insane for a few, it comes back and you feel like you've been on an awesome trip.

A lot of the instrumental sections recently sound like they're just there because at some point they decided "and then we'll have an awesome instrumental section, then the chorus comes back..." so they wrote one.  They don't feel like they grow organically out of the song itself.  Now, shocking transitions can be cool, but even that can be overdone.

As much as I love Dream Theater and admire their chops and all that, most of what they've done recently just hasn't grabbed me, and I think that's partly because they've done it all before.  Not necessarily better, but already done.  Too much of it seems like "the quest to make all songs as long as possible" and "we will now amaze you with yet another highly technical instrumental".  But mostly it's "people fucking love Metropolis part one so let's just do every song like that".

The stuff on Images and Words somehow feels more genuine to me.  They weren't trying to live up to anything, they were still proving themselves and laying it all out there, but only after refining those tunes for years.  That's why the early "classic" stuff is superior.

[KevShmev]

Excellent post, Orbert.

[Orbert]

Thanks!

[Darkes7]

I'm ok with the first paragraph, but sorry, the rest is typical "back in I&W days it was all awesome". The modern instrumental sections aren't in any way inferior or any more of a technical show-off than they were in the early days. They are built mostly equally well, fit the song equally well if not better (Endless Sacrifice is the only counter-example in the entire discography that comes to my mind) and have just as much soul. Metropolis wasn't even the one to start it, The Killing Hand was. If you like Metropolis' instrumental the most - very well, but saying recent instrumentals have less soul or trying to write Metropolis again (?!?!) is seriously stretched and feels like what I said in the first sentence...

[Jamesman42]

Metropolis, Pt 1 is the one that started it all.  They were intentionally trying to get as nuts as they could, but still make it work.  I think they made it work.  Despite taking off and going completely insane for a few, it comes back and you feel like you've been on an awesome trip.

A lot of the instrumental sections recently sound like they're just there because at some point they decided "and then we'll have an awesome instrumental section, then the chorus comes back..." so they wrote one.  They don't feel like they grow organically out of the song itself.  Now, shocking transitions can be cool, but even that can be overdone.

As much as I love Dream Theater and admire their chops and all that, most of what they've done recently just hasn't grabbed me, and I think that's partly because they've done it all before.  Not necessarily better, but already done.  Too much of it seems like "the quest to make all songs as long as possible" and "we will now amaze you with yet another highly technical instrumental".  But mostly it's "people fucking love Metropolis part one so let's just do every song like that".

The stuff on Images and Words somehow feels more genuine to me.  They weren't trying to live up to anything, they were still proving themselves and laying it all out there, but only after refining those tunes for years.  That's why the early "classic" stuff is superior.

The best recent instrumentals to me are easily the one in Octavarium and the beginning of TCOT. Everything else isn't quite on par, although I do love them (fanboy). Yet the older stuff did indeed feel more genuine.

[Dream Team]

I'm ok with the first paragraph, but sorry, the rest is typical "back in I&W days it was all awesome". The modern instrumental sections aren't in any way inferior or any more of a technical show-off than they were in the early days. They are built mostly equally well, fit the song equally well if not better (Endless Sacrifice is the only counter-example in the entire discography that comes to my mind) and have just as much soul. Metropolis wasn't even the one to start it, The Killing Hand was. If you like Metropolis' instrumental the most - very well, but saying recent instrumentals have less soul or trying to write Metropolis again (?!?!) is seriously stretched and feels like what I said in the first sentence...

[lateralus88]

Endless Sacrifice has the same problem as TMoLS. I love the instrumental sections of both songs, but the problem is they are placed in songs where they do not belong. With a bit of tweaking and lengthening, they could make great stand alone instrumental tracks. But within the songs, they just seem...out of place.

[toro]

Endless Sacrifice has the same problem as TMoLS. I love the instrumental sections of both songs, but the problem is they are placed in songs where they do not belong. With a bit of tweaking and lengthening, they could make great stand alone instrumental tracks. But within the songs, they just seem...out of place.

THIS THIS, I'm always thinking about how awesome TMoLS would be if it was a suite instead of just one song.

[Darkes7]

I'm ok with the first paragraph, but sorry, the rest is typical "back in I&W days it was all awesome". The modern instrumental sections aren't in any way inferior or any more of a technical show-off than they were in the early days. They are built mostly equally well, fit the song equally well if not better (Endless Sacrifice is the only counter-example in the entire discography that comes to my mind) and have just as much soul. Metropolis wasn't even the one to start it, The Killing Hand was. If you like Metropolis' instrumental the most - very well, but saying recent instrumentals have less soul or trying to write Metropolis again (?!?!) is seriously stretched and feels like what I said in the first sentence...

Elaborate?

[ZBomber]

GUITAR SOLO
KEYBOARD SOLO
GUITAR SOLO
WEE-DEE-LEE-DEE-LEE-WEE-DOO!




Or what Orbert said.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

The "Metropolis" instrumental - and I would argue this is the case with many of their old instrumentals - is as catchy as a chorus.

The "Endless Sacrifice" instrumental - and I would argue this is the case with many of their new instrumentals - is a boring guitar-keyboard shred duel.

[OperantChamber]

First of all I do want to say that I am a bit biased because I have a personal connection to the lyrics of this song.

I wouldn't have any problems with the Endless Sacrifice instrumental if it was in a different song, but here it just doesn't fit. The song has a strong atmosphere, and then the instrumental appears and kind of ruins it. It's not like e.g. The Ministry of Lost Souls where the instrumental actually sounds dramatic and fits well despite sounding quite different, here it's just... well, out of nowhere.

Funny, TMoLS is one of the few instrumentals I feel should have been used somewhere else.

Metropolis pt.1, if I remember correctly, was originally written as an instrumental. That's why the instrumental portion fits as well as it does.
With Endless Sacrifice, I don't have a problem with the entire instrumental break; just a small portion of it. It's a moody, melodic song, and then in the middle of it, we get circus noises. It's seriously a handful of seconds that ruin that instrumental break for me.

I'd agree if the 'circus noises' were in the middle of a verse or chorus, (where the song is moody and melodic) but they're in the middle of the chaotic and fast paced instrumental section. Also, I listen to stuff like Diablo Swing/Unexpect/Akphaezya so circus noises are more than welcome.

As for not being well contructed, I don't mean that it doesn't transition in and out of the song well.  The transitions are actually pretty good.  But it's very random and far too showy for the type of song it is in (which overlaps into point #2).  The instrumental section in Metropolis is also random and over the top, but it feels like it was constructed to sound that way, and in the context of the song, that mood fits.  Even if the ES instrumental section was very deliberately crafted to sound chaotic, it doesn't come across that way.  It just comes across as random.

And as far as fitting, as has been pointed out, the mood of ES is somewhat dark and extremely emotional.  It is about questioning one's life choices that keep him and his family apart and have taken a toll on the family relationship.  I realize the "feel" of an instrumental section is largely subjective, but the instrumental section doesn't feel to me like it fits that vibe at all.  I don't hate it, and I can appreciate it, but it detracts from the feeling the song is trying to create.

Both instrumental sections are pretty showy, random, and chaotic. I wouldn't say either is doing more of any one of those things.
As for the vibe, I totally get where you are coming from but I look at this way: I once saw a poster here say that the instrumental in Metropolis felt like a tour through the city. (Might've been one of you guys in this thread!) The instrumental in ES, to me of course, feels like a display of what they are making the sacrifice for. It might be a bit of a stretch for some, and that's perfectly fine too.

A lot of the instrumental sections recently sound like they're just there because at some point they decided "and then we'll have an awesome instrumental section, then the chorus comes back..." so they wrote one.  They don't feel like they grow organically out of the song itself.  Now, shocking transitions can be cool, but even that can be overdone.

The stuff on Images and Words somehow feels more genuine to me.  They weren't trying to live up to anything, they were still proving themselves and laying it all out there, but only after refining those tunes for years.  That's why the early "classic" stuff is superior.

So would you agree that a person that did not start with I&W wouldn't feel this way? Also, I've heard several times that DT songs emerge from jam sessions. I don't think they're deliberately stuffing instrumentals into every song, but I'd say it is a possibility.
This just made me wonder what Wither would be like with a 4 minute jam.

Endless Sacrifice has the same problem as TMoLS. I love the instrumental sections of both songs, but the problem is they are placed in songs where they do not belong. With a bit of tweaking and lengthening, they could make great stand alone instrumental tracks. But within the songs, they just seem...out of place.

THIS THIS, I'm always thinking about how awesome TMoLS would be if it was a suite instead of just one song.

I don't care much for TMoLS for a couple of reasons, but I love the instrumental that's buried in there. A suite would've been great.

The "Metropolis" instrumental - and I would argue this is the case with many of their old instrumentals - is as catchy as a chorus.

The "Endless Sacrifice" instrumental - and I would argue this is the case with many of their new instrumentals - is a boring guitar-keyboard shred duel.

Most of the section has some banging rhythm riffs. Pretty catchy to me.
A shrug emote would be great here.

[Adami]

You have a personal connection the lyrics of Metropolis?





















........julian?

[hefdaddy42]

I'm ok with the first paragraph, but sorry, the rest is typical "back in I&W days it was all awesome". The modern instrumental sections aren't in any way inferior or any more of a technical show-off than they were in the early days. They are built mostly equally well, fit the song equally well if not better (Endless Sacrifice is the only counter-example in the entire discography that comes to my mind) and have just as much soul. Metropolis wasn't even the one to start it, The Killing Hand was. If you like Metropolis' instrumental the most - very well, but saying recent instrumentals have less soul or trying to write Metropolis again (?!?!) is seriously stretched and feels like what I said in the first sentence...

Elaborate?

Probably not really necessary.

[OperantChamber]

You have a personal connection the lyrics of Metropolis?





















........julian?

I guess I should've clarifired.

[robwebster]

Endless Sacrifice has the same problem as TMoLS. I love the instrumental sections of both songs, but the problem is they are placed in songs where they do not belong. With a bit of tweaking and lengthening, they could make great stand alone instrumental tracks. But within the songs, they just seem...out of place.

Oh, I quite like their transitions. Especially Endless Sacrifice. I really love that moment where it explodes. Shit gets real, as they say. Foreshadowed in the heavy choruses, too. I think it works.

I'll also say that the orchestral noises are the highlight for me, but I do think it goes on a bit too long with too much repetition.

[hefdaddy42]

The ES "instrumental" section doesn't feel like an instrumental piece of composition so much as solos trading back and forth between JP and JR.  They aren't the same thing.