Do you think Jordan plays too many notes?

[orcus116]

Yeah he overplays like crazy but it only sounds really bad when he does synth stuff. His lead solos on the last few albums have been unbearable.

[Adami]

I think one of the main problems with his lead solos is that they are just solo by numbers. You could seriously replace them with each other, and assuming they are in the same key, and same length, it wouldn't change anything about the song and no one would notice.

[rumborak]

I think there's good fast, and there's bad fast. Good fast creates a secondary texture over the constituent notes, i.e. sort of a tapestry that you can still follow. Jordan's solos often don't have that, and they become somewhat indiscernible, especially when he uses effect-laden sounds.

rumborak

Much better put. I mean, personally I rarely find his solos uninteresting, but it does happen sometimes (ANTR springs to mind) but it's simply the fact that it's not an interesting solo. Some of his fast ones I adore, some of his slow ones I'm less keen on, and vice versa.

It's just weird to me. I mean, there's a reason why church tunes don't have fast runs; there's just so much effect (reverb) on the sound that it makes the notes blur together. And every musician knows that, the faster the lines you play, the cleaner the sound has to be. My problem with JR's fast solos is that I can't even remotely tell what he's doing due to the heavy effects on it.

rumborak

[reneranucci]

I´ve always said that his solos are generally very good, and people seem to generalize too much when they call his soloing style bad. People tend to imply that he only plays fast runs of notes. Most solos in SFAM are killer, and SDOIT features stellar work, too. The problem started with TOT. TDS is not very good, although I think there is a melodic pattern that is discernible in the song, is not just a bunch of notes and effects. The same happens with ES, but HTF probably fits the description of too fast. The solos on SoC and ITNOG are at least decent.

Octavarium was a step in the right direction, IMO. True, TROAE features the blueprint for his solos in subsequent albums, but it feels still fresh, and again you can tell what he´s playing. The solo on SS is good and the one in Octavarium is perfect, it´s not praised enough IMO. The other two albums do not feature his best work, but again, his work in those albums in very varied and the fast solos (Constant Motion, AROP, maybe TSF although I love that one) are not representative of his work. People always say that he cannot restrain his playing, but the wonderful atmosphere he brought to ANTR and Repentance proves the opposite, but again, people seem to ignore that he can play that kind of music very well, too. Those are perfect examples of JR not playing too many notes at all.

I geniunely believe that he gets bored playing simple things in the piano, and that´s why he adds all those flourishes. He plays that way for his own enjoyment. If you don´t like it, well, that´s your problem, I think it is definitely part of his style.

[ariich]

It's just weird to me. I mean, there's a reason why church tunes don't have fast runs; there's just so much effect (reverb) on the sound that it makes the notes blur together. And every musician knows that, the faster the lines you play, the cleaner the sound has to be. My problem with JR's fast solos is that I can't even remotely tell what he's doing due to the heavy effects on it.

rumborak

I think a large part of the problem is the production. For example, I think that, in general, BC&SL sounds really good and his atmospheric keyboard work is perfectly mixed in, but his solos are just way too low in the mix. Particularly considering, as you say, the level of effects he puts on the sounds. I think they'd sound fine if they were mixed in properly, but the combination just doesn't work very well.

[Samsara]

In fact, to me the whole concept of "too many notes" or "too few notes" is nonsense. Whether something is good or bad, memorable or unmemorable, seems to have no correlation whatsoever to how fast it is or how many notes there are.

Completely disagree. Songs need to breathe. You CAN overplay. People say that and you hear it all the time.

[ariich]

In fact, to me the whole concept of "too many notes" or "too few notes" is nonsense. Whether something is good or bad, memorable or unmemorable, seems to have no correlation whatsoever to how fast it is or how many notes there are.

Completely disagree. Songs need to breathe. You CAN overplay. People say that and you hear it all the time.

I know that people say it, just to me it makes no sense whatsoever.

[King Postwhore]

I'd like them to change it up once in a while and like Sam says, let it breath.  Not all songs need a thousand notes all the time.  Now sometimes, Jordans patches sound weird in the fast soloing sections.  i think if he picked a better sound for his solo's people would complain less.

[Portrucci]

I think there's good fast, and there's bad fast. Good fast creates a secondary texture over the constituent notes, i.e. sort of a tapestry that you can still follow. Jordan's solos often don't have that, and they become somewhat indiscernible, especially when he uses effect-laden sounds.

rumborak

Much better put. I mean, personally I rarely find his solos uninteresting, but it does happen sometimes (ANTR springs to mind) but it's simply the fact that it's not an interesting solo. Some of his fast ones I adore, some of his slow ones I'm less keen on, and vice versa.

It's just weird to me. I mean, there's a reason why church tunes don't have fast runs; there's just so much effect (reverb) on the sound that it makes the notes blur together. And every musician knows that, the faster the lines you play, the cleaner the sound has to be. My problem with JR's fast solos is that I can't even remotely tell what he's doing due to the heavy effects on it.

rumborak

This is my take as well. There is no doubt the guy has the skill and timing to play tastefully over a metal riff, it would just sound a whole lot better if it wasn't so over-the-top and ear-piercing.

[LCArenas]

As a matter of fact, Jordan next uploaded video about the continuum is named "Lots of Notes"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASDVxRLIEps

[KevShmev]

I think the big thing is that Jordan isn't at his best when soloing over metal riffage.  That's when most of his recent "fast playing" has been.  He is much more creative when soloing over more melodic or progressive passages, IMHO.

I agree with this, big time.  Rudess admittedly did not come from a metal background, so soloing over metal stuff is not one of his strengths (and he has a lot of strengths, for those who think I am being too critical here).  But soloing over melodic or prog stuff is usually not a problem for him.  The solos in "Blind Faith" are great; the solo in the middle of "Octavarium" (the Styx-ish one) is terrific; etc.  Now turn it around and look at his solos in the heavier or harder rocking songs and the good ones are a lot harder to find.  His solo in the middle of "Home" is still his best one with DT, though, IMO.

And say what you want about Jordan Rudess, but he has never come across to me as anything but a super cool guy.

[Adami]

As a matter of fact, Jordan next uploaded video about the continuum is named "Lots of Notes"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASDVxRLIEps

That is a cool technology. He admits in the video to basically be just goofing around with what he's playing, however, tell me if it would REALLY surprise you to see that exact segment as a solo on a new song.

[ariich]

I think the big thing is that Jordan isn't at his best when soloing over metal riffage.  That's when most of his recent "fast playing" has been.  He is much more creative when soloing over more melodic or progressive passages, IMHO.

I agree with this, big time.  Rudess admittedly did not come from a metal background, so soloing over metal stuff is not one of his strengths (and he has a lot of strengths, for those who think I am being too critical here).  But soloing over melodic or prog stuff is usually not a problem for him.  The solos in "Blind Faith" are great; the solo in the middle of "Octavarium" (the Styx-ish one) is terrific; etc.  Now turn it around and look at his solos in the heavier or harder rocking songs and the good ones are a lot harder to find.  His solo in the middle of "Home" is still his best one with DT, though, IMO.

Yeah, I think I might have actually been the first to point out (back when BCSL came out) that in the last couple of albums, he only seems to get solos over "metal" bits, while JP gets all the melodic solo sections (TBOT, TSF), which surely contributes to why people are getting bored with his solos. I mean it's hard enough to do an intersting guitar solo over standard metal riffs, but for keyboard it's even harder as far as I'm concerned, because it's a less natural combination.

[ReaPsTA]

As a matter of fact, Jordan next uploaded video about the continuum is named "Lots of Notes"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASDVxRLIEps

That video was super awesome to watch.

I feel like that technology has a lot of potential. The pitch bending properties of the Continuum are far more interesting than the standard wheel.

[Dream Team]

I think the big thing is that Jordan isn't at his best when soloing over metal riffage.  That's when most of his recent "fast playing" has been.  He is much more creative when soloing over more melodic or progressive passages, IMHO.

I agree with this, big time.  Rudess admittedly did not come from a metal background, so soloing over metal stuff is not one of his strengths (and he has a lot of strengths, for those who think I am being too critical here).  But soloing over melodic or prog stuff is usually not a problem for him.  The solos in "Blind Faith" are great; the solo in the middle of "Octavarium" (the Styx-ish one) is terrific; etc.  Now turn it around and look at his solos in the heavier or harder rocking songs and the good ones are a lot harder to find.  His solo in the middle of "Home" is still his best one with DT, though, IMO.

And say what you want about Jordan Rudess, but he has never come across to me as anything but a super cool guy.

So I have to ask myself, since this is so obvious to we the listeners, why don't MP & JP realize it?

[GuineaPig]

I think the big thing is that Jordan isn't at his best when soloing over metal riffage.  That's when most of his recent "fast playing" has been.  He is much more creative when soloing over more melodic or progressive passages, IMHO.

I agree with this, big time.  Rudess admittedly did not come from a metal background, so soloing over metal stuff is not one of his strengths (and he has a lot of strengths, for those who think I am being too critical here).  But soloing over melodic or prog stuff is usually not a problem for him.  The solos in "Blind Faith" are great; the solo in the middle of "Octavarium" (the Styx-ish one) is terrific; etc.  Now turn it around and look at his solos in the heavier or harder rocking songs and the good ones are a lot harder to find.  His solo in the middle of "Home" is still his best one with DT, though, IMO.

And say what you want about Jordan Rudess, but he has never come across to me as anything but a super cool guy.

So I have to ask myself, since this is so obvious to we the listeners, why don't MP & JP realize it?

I think it would be very difficult to approach your own music with any kind of objectivity.  I'd throw this issue in the same pile as "MP rapping/growling", and further illustrates what I think to be the need for an outside producer.

[reneranucci]

I'd like them to change it up once in a while and like Sam says, let it breath.  Not all songs need a thousand notes all the time.  

This is the kind of thinking that is completely incorrect. Even though it is an exaggeration to ilustrate a point, it causes people to criticize much more than it is necessary, IMO; and to make a characterization of Jordan´s playing that is not accurate at all. The resulting criticism of his style is completely unbalanced, and lead fans to think that people like to criticize JR just for the sake of it instead of making a balanced assessment of his playing.

[King Postwhore]

I'd like them to change it up once in a while and like Sam says, let it breath.  Not all songs need a thousand notes all the time.  

This is the kind of thinking that is completely incorrect. Even though it is an exaggeration to ilustrate a point, it causes people to criticize much more than it is necessary, IMO; and to make a characterization of Jordan´s playing that is not accurate at all. The resulting criticism of his style is completely unbalanced, and lead fans to think that people like to criticize JR just for the sake of it instead of making a balanced assessment of his playing.

Wrong, A thousand notes don't make it right.  It's what you do with the notes that matters.  I like most of his playing but his solo's. Sometimes one note says it all and sometimes a thousand does.

[antigoon]

I think Jordan can overplay sometimes but I also think it's unfair to lump the blame entirely on him. I think a lot of our complaints about his soloing would go away if they just turn down the metal dial a little bit.

[hefdaddy42]

As a matter of fact, Jordan next uploaded video about the continuum is named "Lots of Notes"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASDVxRLIEps

That video was super awesome to watch.

I feel like that technology has a lot of potential. The pitch bending properties of the Continuum are far more interesting than the standard wheel.

That was pretty frickin' cool.  Obviously this was just a quality-control exercise, but I agree, the potential for this is very interesting.

[KevShmev]

I'd like them to change it up once in a while and like Sam says, let it breath.  Not all songs need a thousand notes all the time.  

This is the kind of thinking that is completely incorrect. Even though it is an exaggeration to ilustrate a point, it causes people to criticize much more than it is necessary, IMO; and to make a characterization of Jordan´s playing that is not accurate at all. The resulting criticism of his style is completely unbalanced, and lead fans to think that people like to criticize JR just for the sake of it instead of making a balanced assessment of his playing.

Hogwash.  Just because you might not agree with peoples' assessment of JR's playing doesn't mean it is unbalanced or unfair.  The only consistent criticism I see of JR is regarding the quality of his solos.  Just about every other aspect of his playing is rarely criticized, so I think most of us are more than fair.

[reneranucci]

I have no problem with criticism, and I actually agree with it in many cases. Does JR sometimes overplays and makes bad solos? Sure.

But what I was talking about is that most of the time it seems that people characterize Jordan just as a shredder, which is not true. And I was highlighting the comment that said "all songs with a thousand notes all the time" as a illustration of that characterization, which seems unfair IMO. I understand it was an exaggeration but it still represents the way of thinking I called unbalanced. JR actually brings breathing space and atmosphere to many songs, TMOLS, Reptentance and ANTR being recent examples. He does overplay sometimes, too, even in those same songs. I think that opinions that balance those two aspects of his playing would be more accurate.

[reneranucci]

I'd like them to change it up once in a while and like Sam says, let it breath.  Not all songs need a thousand notes all the time.  

This is the kind of thinking that is completely incorrect. Even though it is an exaggeration to ilustrate a point, it causes people to criticize much more than it is necessary, IMO; and to make a characterization of Jordan´s playing that is not accurate at all. The resulting criticism of his style is completely unbalanced, and lead fans to think that people like to criticize JR just for the sake of it instead of making a balanced assessment of his playing.

Wrong, A thousand notes don't make it right.  It's what you do with the notes that matters.  I like most of his playing but his solo's. Sometimes one note says it all and sometimes a thousand does.

Well I agree with what you say, I didn´t catch that you were referring only to his solos in your original post.

And it certainly would be interesting to hear something new from him, as you said. What solos in pre-JR DT were more restrained and melodic? Maybe ToT, OAMOT but I can´t think of many others. TTT was excellent but not exactly restrained, as the solos in Metropolis, Ytsejam and Afterlife. Hmmmm... interestingly, I think DT didn´t have that many solos in their early days as they do now. They had short sections were keyboards were predominant but did not go overboard, like in The Mirror and UAGM. Maybe that´s what we´re missing.

[SnakeEyes]

A CONVERSATION WITH JEFFREY DAHMER

Police officer:  Um, Jeffrey, you murdered 17 people.  That's a lot of people. 

Jeffrey Dahmer:  You obviously don't know who I am or what I do. 

[King Postwhore]

I'd like them to change it up once in a while and like Sam says, let it breath.  Not all songs need a thousand notes all the time.  

This is the kind of thinking that is completely incorrect. Even though it is an exaggeration to ilustrate a point, it causes people to criticize much more than it is necessary, IMO; and to make a characterization of Jordan´s playing that is not accurate at all. The resulting criticism of his style is completely unbalanced, and lead fans to think that people like to criticize JR just for the sake of it instead of making a balanced assessment of his playing.

Wrong, A thousand notes don't make it right.  It's what you do with the notes that matters.  I like most of his playing but his solo's. Sometimes one note says it all and sometimes a thousand does.

Well I agree with what you say, I didn´t catch that you were referring only to his solos in your original post. !
And it certainly would be interesting to hear something new from him, as you said. What solos in pre-JR DT were more restrained and melodic? Maybe ToT, OAMOT but I can´t think of many others. TTT was excellent but not exactly restrained, as the solos in Metropolis, Ytsejam and Afterlife. Hmmmm... interestingly, I think DT didn´t have that many solos in their early days as they do now. They had short sections were keyboards were predominant but did not go overboard, like in The Mirror and UAGM. Maybe that´s what we´re missing.

I do agree!

[rumborak]

As a matter of fact, Jordan next uploaded video about the continuum is named "Lots of Notes"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASDVxRLIEps

That video was super awesome to watch.

I feel like that technology has a lot of potential. The pitch bending properties of the Continuum are far more interesting than the standard wheel.

That was pretty frickin' cool.  Obviously this was just a quality-control exercise, but I agree, the potential for this is very interesting.

Indeed, a lot of potential in the technology. But frankly, given how narrow his testing is in this video, and how close it is to his soloing on DT records, I fear this will just enforce it.

rumborak

[YtseBitsySpider]

I think it's also the taste of the listener.

I have enjoyed less of Jordan's playing on every album since he joined. I've enjoyed DT's CD's less and less since he joined. BC & SL is a real "they won me back album" for me.

What I enjoyed the most about Kevin's playing was his ability to be heard and not heard at the same time. I can't think of another prog keyboardist who's done it so masterfully. I really enjoyed Derek because I absolutely love his tone and his "slow sloppy playing".

Jordan seems to be an extremely talented "add on" part to this band.

[LudwigVan]

This thread needs some blobvandam

Anyway, JR's statement of 'you obviously don't know who I am or what I do' seems to suggest that what JR is 'doing' is fulfulling a very particular role in a band that requires him to play in a very particular style.

[YtseBitsySpider]

LOL...your blob comment is enormously valid....I wouldn't be allowed to run amok with all my craziness if he was here.

[KevShmev]

But what I was talking about is that most of the time it seems that people characterize Jordan just as a shredder, which is not true. And I was highlighting the comment that said "all songs with a thousand notes all the time" as a illustration of that characterization, which seems unfair IMO. I understand it was an exaggeration but it still represents the way of thinking I called unbalanced. JR actually brings breathing space and atmosphere to many songs, TMOLS, Reptentance and ANTR being recent examples. He does overplay sometimes, too, even in those same songs. I think that opinions that balance those two aspects of his playing would be more accurate.

Okay, I get what you are saying, and those are all fair points.  But I think most tend to exaggerate in such discussions, whether it be saying something positive or negative, so you have to take that into consideration, too.

This thread needs some blobvandam

Meh.  Without trying to start something, I will just say that, except for the brief bit of nonsense by BRGM, this thread has been very civilized, and a good discussion is taking place, and I doubt that would be the case if BVD were still here.  No one here is getting too over the top with their defense or criticism.  That is a good thing.

[tri.ad]

This thread needs some blobvandam

That's the last thing it needs.

I agree with Kev, the discussion here has been very civilised and exemplary.
As for me, yes, Jordan overdoes things sometimes in my opinion (and when he misses, he tends to miss pretty badly). I'm not very fond of his piano improvisations, because they tend to get stuffed with notes after about 30 seconds. What I do admire, though, is his work on SFAM (well, most of it anyway) and SDOIT. Also, his synth lead in TCOT at 2:36 is one of my favourite JR moments ever.

[reneranucci]

This thread needs some blobvandam

Anyway, JR's statement of 'you obviously don't know who I am or what I do' seems to suggest that what JR is 'doing' is fulfulling a very particular role in a band that requires him to play in a very particular style.

Good point.

I remember watching the LTE DVD and listening to the LTE CDs after a long time. I said to myself: I see clearly why MP and JP thought that JR was the guy for Dream Theater. There was something magical about the chemistry they had writing music together, and the potential for that chemistry to continue in DT was amazing. IMO the decision to replace Derek was fully justified if the experience of making the LTE albums was the main reason behind it. The opportunity of having JR join the band seemed to good to ignore.

And I think part of that great chemistry shows in SFAM and to a lesser degree in SDOIT. TOT had a very definite and narrow direction that conditioned the music. Something happened since Octavarium, and some of the elements that made the first JR/DT collaborations so great started to fade away. On the other hand I think that is a natural thing, you cannot expect to be super innovative after writing 4 or 5 albums with the same guys. If I can say this, probably the 5th album with KM wouldn´t have been super groundbreaking, either.

Maybe that´s why people insist in that it would be a good thing for the band members to take a long break, or to challenge themselves to try something completely different. They can recover some of the freshness and excitement they had at the beginning. I don´t know, they can try to write a rock album with almost no metal at all, or include 2 piano based songs in the next album, and see what happens (but that´s discussion for another thread I think).

[hefdaddy42]

^Lot of truth there^

That's why I'm kind of glad that they are taking this year off.

[King Postwhore]

I like they style he went with on Octavarium.  Mabye it's the old prog fart talking but, he picked the right sounds and played a lot more chords than a flurry of single notes shadowing another instrument.  I like a mix of both and OV8 seemed to have a good mix of both.

[genome]

They both have points. Some people find his ostentatiousness too much, but that's just who Jordan is.

I love a lot of his lead work and don't mind a bit of wankery, but Black Clouds and Silver Linings had some awful keyboard solos on it.