Two things I do not like about BC&SL.

[BlobVanDam]

1. There are only three or four pure instrumentals on the album

I wonder if this was anyway influenced by a lot of the outcry I've seen and heard from the fans (especially on these boards) about the excessive instrumental wankery, if you will. I think Dream Theater likely took that to heart and made their instrumental sections a tad subtler, at the expense of some non-soloing instrumental sections.

I definitely think so too. First time I heard the album it sounded quite obvious to me that they'd dialed back the instrumental sections and focused on the songwriting.

ANTR could be cut in like three or four minutes, though. And too bad they didn't hear our cry of not liking rororororororororo/TDEN way of singing. Baby steps, I guess.

But all of that is their artistic decision, not yours (the fans, I mean). They shouldn't be basing their songwriting on a few online fans' opinions, and in all honesty, TDEN and that last verse of ANTR both get a huge positive fan response live.

[emindead]

I agree with you that it is their artistic decision. However, I could even enjoy some "You Not Me" live, just for the lolz. I enjoyed TDEN live because of the cartoon.













and the lolz.

[Phantasmatron]

It stays in the same key sig, and doesn't change the tempo (if it does, it's very slight). The only thing that changes is that it builds up in intensity, and it's gradual. First of all, the second chorus is already in double time and much more built up, and there's more power in the vocals, so the entire thing builds up to it a while before that. If you want transitionless turn-arounds with no thought, listen to Scarred.

That would have been an awesome closing argument, but I'm much of a Scarred fan.  

But you're right, the second chorus is considerably more intense and more layered.  But the layering, to me, is all very soothing and emotional...at least, JR's soaring keyboard work there really makes it sound calm, despite the drumming and guitar playing that's been stepped up from the first chorus.  Plus, all the vocal harmonies soften the impact of the guitar.  Then, suddenly, it's over, the vocals drop out, we switch from 6/8 to 5/8 (I think), and we're thrown into the middle of a flurry of notes.  There may not be a tempo change (or only a slight one, I'm not sure), but the tone of the music has gone so abruptly from soothing and emotional to hurried and technical.

I guess what I'm saying is that the gradual buildup you described is there, but it's interrupted in the middle of its own payoff.  That second chorus is so epic that I'd prefer if the band had given it a little more time to develop and sink in before blasting full-speed ahead into their instrumental section.  

It actually makes me sad every time I hear that part.  In fact, it may even be the only thing about ANTR that I don't love.  I even get a kick out of the silly EVERYONE SURVIVED part.  But that whiplash-inducing transition from epic chorus to instrumental madness really drags the song down.  Which, admittedly, is silly.  It's two seconds out of a sixteen-minute song.  But it sticks out like a sore thumb, and I hate hearing it.

That's all.

[BlobVanDam]

But it's supposed to be that way. There are more abrupt transitions in Scarred, and all over WDADU, IaW and Awake. And they're all (including ANTR) supposed to sound the way they sound, to achieve what they set out to do (well most of them, anyway)
Listen to the way that JLB sings "agony" that second time. It's completely different to the first chorus. It's a perfect lead in to the heavy section. There's a difference between a song changing, and being abrupt. The time sig change isn't even apparent until the end of the first bar of the solo anyway, since the beat has a basic 6/8 feel with the last beat dropped, and it's in the same tempo.
Think about it. He's in the hospital. Then we have the car crash sample to signify the crash out of nowhere, with a change from the calmness of the hospital to the horrific nightmares of the crash running through his head. The contrast is there for impact to accentuate the solo section and show the change of mood. It's a quick change, but it never once sounded abrupt to me.

[bosk1]

I'm definitely with Blob on this one, on both counts. 

As far as the transition, I love it.  It's perfect.  It builds and is a perfectly logical transition from soft to slightly frantic to heavy.  It's hard to imagine a better transition.

And as for the heavy vocals, emin, you're just being silly.  Mike doing the heavy vocals on that part of the song are a great fit.  As much as I love James as the voice of DT, Mike's vocals fit that part of the song a lot better.  And although I'm learning to like a few growls here and there in some contexts, the full-on growl that Mike originally did in the demo didn't really fit. 

If there's anything that could be done to make the song better, I honestly can't think of what it might be.  But none of the suggestions I've ever heard would do it.

[Adami]

The only thing that would make ANTR better is better lyrics.

Especially the portnoy part. Just screaming such upbeat lyrics is terrible.

[bosk1]

There's nothing upbeat about the lyrics. 

[BlobVanDam]

The only thing that would make ANTR better is better lyrics.

Especially the portnoy part. Just screaming such upbeat lyrics is terrible.

If they'd just cut off the last few lines, it would have been fine imo. Most of that section isn't upbeat, but then they put the "It's a miracle he lived...." verse on, which is the only part that doesn't fit the vocal delivery. I know it then wouldn't have fit the "every cloud has a silver lining" theme as much, but I think if they'd ended the verse with the line "Like a recurring nightmare haunting my dreams", then it would be perfect.

[Jamesman42]

1. There are only three or four pure instrumentals on the album (ANTR, the beginning of TSF, the beginning one in TCOT and in the middle after the last chorus of TCOT). By the way, to me, an instrumental is more than a solo section, or a musical prelude, interlude, or outro or transition piece. An instrumental section should stand on its own as a piece of the song in to be called an instrumental section.

As far as I know, AROP, Wither, and TBOT don't have instrumental sections as I've described. Yes, they have solo sections, transitions, and intros, but no section that is centered on the instruments as a pure instrumental. I know what some will say, that TBOT has the intro and outro, but that doesn't count to me. Those spots are both solo spots more than instrumentals.

2. Even with TCOT ending the album, I feel like the album ends too soon. I'm not saying that it's because the album is great (which it is, IMO), but more like the fact that 6 songs doesn't leave me feeling fully satisfied and finished with the album. I feel like there should be more music on the album.

Look at SDOIT (album). Six songs, but the last song is like 8 songs strung together to become one song. That is satisfying and long-lasting to the listener who wants to digest an album and not need any more afterward. BC&SL seems to want to offer more music and make you "full", but I don't get full off of it. I love this album, but I need more afterward because it leaves me hanging.

So, thoughts? You may not agree with these, but I figured I'd share.

TBH, I dunno WTF you're talking about.  But whatever.

LTR.

[Adami]

There's nothing upbeat about the lyrics. 

Miracles, blessings and grace seems upbeat to me.

Sure the first part isn't upbeat, but it's terrible. Then it's upbeat and terrible.

[OperantChamber]

ANTR could be cut in like three or four minutes, though. And too bad they didn't hear our cry of not liking rororororororororo/TDEN way of singing. Baby steps, I guess.

But all of that is their artistic decision, not yours (the fans, I mean). They shouldn't be basing their songwriting on a few online fans' opinions, and in all honesty, TDEN and that last verse of ANTR both get a huge positive fan response live.

I honestly hate the fact that they felt it necessary to tone down the growls because DT fans wouldn't like it. They sound good to me as they are now, but it could have been so br00tal!


Hell, even Beardfish throws down a full blown death metal growl in Destined Solitaire.

[j]

Lyrics are not the primary problem with ANTR: there are at least two or three songs on the album that are lyrically worse.  I think the transitions are fine too, or at least passable.  But the instrumental section is just plain uninteresting.  That is its only real flaw, IMO.

-J

[bosk1]

There's nothing upbeat about the lyrics. 

Miracles, blessings and grace seems upbeat to me.

Sure the first part isn't upbeat, but it's terrible. Then it's upbeat and terrible.

  That's like saying "White Zombie" is a nice, light, uplifting name because it has "white" in it.

[Adami]

There's nothing upbeat about the lyrics. 

Miracles, blessings and grace seems upbeat to me.

Sure the first part isn't upbeat, but it's terrible. Then it's upbeat and terrible.

  That's like saying "White Zombie" is a nice, light, uplifting name because it has "white" in it.

No it's like saying "thank god the zombies didn't get us".

[robwebster]

1. There are only three or four pure instrumentals on the album

I wonder if this was anyway influenced by a lot of the outcry I've seen and heard from the fans (especially on these boards) about the excessive instrumental wankery, if you will. I think Dream Theater likely took that to heart and made their instrumental sections a tad subtler, at the expense of some non-soloing instrumental sections.

I definitely think so too. First time I heard the album it sounded quite obvious to me that they'd dialed back the instrumental sections and focused on the songwriting.

ANTR could be cut in like three or four minutes, though. And too bad they didn't hear our cry of not liking rororororororororo/TDEN way of singing. Baby steps, I guess.

I kinda think they should really be listening to the thousands upon thousands of fans who come to their gigs and sing along with every word, rather than the sixty or so who go around being grumpy on message boards.

MP does often feel hurt by what the fans say and takes it on board - more than he should, probably - but I kinda think that, if their direction on BCSL was any more tasteful than other recent albums, it'll have been because that was an artistic direction they were interested in going down anyway.

[OsMosis2259]

As far the instrumental sections go in BCSL, i think I am fine with the amount that is on this album.  This album is probably the DT album that goes the fastest from start to finish and its 75 minutes like most of the other albums.  At least for me, the song writing on this album is a lot better than the past 3 albums.  A lot of people are hating on some of the transitions, but I don't really feel they are awkward at all. The song writing on this album is not as predictable like on SC, or ToT. On BCSL, within the same song they have different ideas. 

ANTR goes from a horror movie, to a metallica type riff/verse, then a bluesy solo, then a peaceful part, then to a jam, then back to horror movie type stuff, then to the opeth type growl and etc etc.

TCOT all the way through goes pretty fast for me and its 19 minutes.  Where as ACOS and Octavarium feel longer to get through.

Then there are 2 more easier to tracks. (AROP and wither)

OVerall I think the album is very balanced and probably their best since SDOIT.  So I'm not going to say I wish there were more instrumental sections. 

[Perpetual Change]

There's nothing upbeat about the lyrics. 

Miracles, blessings and grace seems upbeat to me.

Sure the first part isn't upbeat, but it's terrible. Then it's upbeat and terrible.

  That's like saying "White Zombie" is a nice, light, uplifting name because it has "white" in it.

No it's like saying "thank god the zombies didn't get us".

So if you were trying to explain to a friend that you have horrifying reoccuring nightmares that keep you from sleeping at night, you'd sound happy when mentioned about how everyone survives at the end but it's still terrifying?

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

There's nothing upbeat about the lyrics. 

Miracles, blessings and grace seems upbeat to me.

Sure the first part isn't upbeat, but it's terrible. Then it's upbeat and terrible.

  That's like saying "White Zombie" is a nice, light, uplifting name because it has "white" in it.

No it's like saying "thank god the zombies didn't get us".

So if you were trying to explain to a friend that you have horrifying reoccuring nightmares that keep you from sleeping at night, you'd sound happy when mentioned about how everyone survives at the end but it's still terrifying?

I like to think of it as a...gesture of excitement. Like "WHOA!! MAN EVERYONE SURVIVED!! ROAAAAAAAAAAR!!!"

[TheOutlawXanadu]

1. There are only three or four pure instrumentals on the album

I wonder if this was anyway influenced by a lot of the outcry I've seen and heard from the fans (especially on these boards) about the excessive instrumental wankery, if you will. I think Dream Theater likely took that to heart and made their instrumental sections a tad subtler, at the expense of some non-soloing instrumental sections.

I definitely think so too. First time I heard the album it sounded quite obvious to me that they'd dialed back the instrumental sections and focused on the songwriting.

ANTR could be cut in like three or four minutes, though. And too bad they didn't hear our cry of not liking rororororororororo/TDEN way of singing. Baby steps, I guess.

I kinda think they should really be listening to the thousands upon thousands of fans who come to their gigs and sing along with every word, rather than the sixty or so who go around being grumpy on message boards.

It's no secret I don't like new DT. I liked BC&SL at first, but it got old fast. Maybe that's a result of me overreacting to how much better it was than SC, or maybe it's because I was on a DT kick at the time, or maybe it's because my tastes have radically changed since then.

That being said, I don't think DT should listen to anyone about their music. They should write whatever the hell they want. And if I, or anyone else, doesn't like it, then tough shit.

[Adami]

There's nothing upbeat about the lyrics. 

Miracles, blessings and grace seems upbeat to me.

Sure the first part isn't upbeat, but it's terrible. Then it's upbeat and terrible.

  That's like saying "White Zombie" is a nice, light, uplifting name because it has "white" in it.

No it's like saying "thank god the zombies didn't get us".

So if you were trying to explain to a friend that you have horrifying reoccuring nightmares that keep you from sleeping at night, you'd sound happy when mentioned about how everyone survives at the end but it's still terrifying?

I sure wouldn't growl it.

[Perpetual Change]

There's nothing upbeat about the lyrics. 

Miracles, blessings and grace seems upbeat to me.

Sure the first part isn't upbeat, but it's terrible. Then it's upbeat and terrible.

  That's like saying "White Zombie" is a nice, light, uplifting name because it has "white" in it.

No it's like saying "thank god the zombies didn't get us".

So if you were trying to explain to a friend that you have horrifying reoccuring nightmares that keep you from sleeping at night, you'd sound happy when mentioned about how everyone survives at the end but it's still terrifying?

I sure wouldn't growl it.

You probably wouldn't sing about it at all.




Which is exactly why people have a problem with the lyrics, come to think of it.

[LTE]

I recently got  A LOT of appreciation for TCOT. The lyrics are still pretty laughable, and it may not seem as serious as DT's other epics, but the songwriting is PERFECT imo. They have really nailed their craft. All the melodies, riffs and progressions just flow and fit so well together that it makes a 19 minute song never boring, and never repetitive. (Although I would say all their other epics are not boring or repetitive as well )

[darkshade]

I wonder if this was anyway influenced by a lot of the outcry I've seen and heard from the fans (especially on these boards) about the excessive instrumental wankery, if you will.

NUGGETZ!

Seriously, even with ADTOE in the history books, BC&SL still feels like a great album when I listen to it. ANTR is still awesome, TCOT is still awesome, and TBOT is so friggin' tasteful, dammit! Honestly, DT "wank" more on ADTOE, even though it all works for the song, whereas on BC&SL, DT were aware of the wank-fest, and sought to control it as much as they could.

[YtseCullen]

thats a bump and half

[MetropolisWatches]

Their weakest album. That is all.

[BlobVanDam]

Their weakest album. That is all.

You're forgetting that thing they squeezed out in 1989.

[King Postwhore]

Their weakest album. That is all.

You're forgetting that thing they squeezed out in 1989.

Agreed, Blob.

[darkshade]

Their weakest album. That is all.

You're forgetting that thing they squeezed out in 1989.

Agreed, Blob.

Also agreed. BC&SL > WDADU and SC

[BlobVanDam]

Their weakest album. That is all.

You're forgetting that thing they squeezed out in 1989.

Agreed, Blob.

I knew there was a reason I liked you.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Their weakest album. That is all.

I might actually agree with this! It just seems kind of characterless to me. Maybe I just haven't spun it in awhile.

[Pols Voice]

It's not my least favorite DT album, but BC&SL suffers from a lack of replay value for me.

[Elite]

It's not my least favorite DT album, but BC&SL suffers from a lack of replay value for me.

Precisely why it is my least favourite DT album.

[MetropolisWatches]

Their weakest album. That is all.

I might actually agree with this! It just seems kind of characterless to me. Maybe I just haven't spun it in awhile.

Yes. Like I've said before- aside from The Count of Tuscany, every song on this album felt lacking and like something was missing.

[robwebster]

Their weakest album. That is all.

I might actually agree with this! It just seems kind of characterless to me. Maybe I just haven't spun it in awhile.

Add me to the pile!

I don't think anything's top twenty - though The Count of Tuscany probably flirts with it - and everything on it is either massively flawed, or they've done a similar thing better elsewhere. And there are so many humps. To its credit, the one new idea in The Shattered Fortress was a very good one, but most of the song just feels like... mass.

Whether you found it charming or nauseating, Systematic Chaos at least had oodles of character. Black Clouds & Silver Linings does not. It's a Dream Theater album by rote. A band coasting. Whenever anyone asked what fans could expect from the new disc, I seem to remember Mike Portnoy used to say they can expect Dream Theater's tenth studio album. Which frustrated me at the time, but on reflection I don't know what else he could've said. It's just there. They turned up, they wrote some good riffs, good choruses. I enjoy A Rite of Passage when it's on. Wither, I enjoy. Nothing's bad. It's lukewarm.

[theseoafs]

To its credit, the one new idea in The Shattered Fortress was a very good one

This, man.  The last chorus is excellent, and it frustrates me that DT came up with that idea, thought "yep, that's all we need to write a 13-minute song", and slapped a bunch of reprises on top of it.  Lame.

BCSL is a very flawed album.  For my money, the only song that I can truly and completely appreciate for what it is is Wither -- I very much enjoy it.  All the others range from quite bad (AROP, TSF) to quite good, but not without a couple glaring problems (TBOT, TCOT).  It's kind of disheartening, because its musical ideas had a lot of potential, but none of them were fully realized, and most of them were bogged down by lackluster lyrics and unnecessary vocal contributions from MP.