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Offline axeman90210

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2009, 10:29:26 PM »
I forget who it was, but someone said  "There are only 15 original stories in the world, and everything is just a derivation or combination of those".
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Offline TL

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2009, 10:29:51 PM »
That's like saying I'm providing the template for every possible experience because I say that things will either be positive, negative, or neutral. If you define things broadly enough, of course every plot has been done.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2009, 10:35:00 PM »
That's like saying I'm providing the template for every possible experience because I say that things will either be positive, negative, or neutral. If you define things broadly enough, of course every plot has been done.

Well that's the point we're trying to make.  The particulars may change, but they're all the same basic stories when you take them down to bare bones.

I forget who it was, but someone said  "There are only 15 original stories in the world, and everything is just a derivation or combination of those".

I don't remember who it was either, but that's exactly the quote I have in mind.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2009, 11:49:08 PM »
Good lord, I've never felt so overwhelmed by a movie.

Obviously, this is the greatest CGI ever pulled off. The CG and real world stuff feel like one consistent reality. On the other hand, I'm still not quite sure it's photo realistic. Some shots did feel photo realistic, and they contrasted with the ones that didn't.

But what makes the CG ultimately work so well is two-fold. It is legitimately visionary. This isn't George Lucas coming up with new action figures. Pandora felt like a real place. The other thing is the scale. The Star Wars movies and the new Transformers movies are just so out of control with what they do. Avatar has a lot of huge moments, but they never get so absurd that they're incomprehensible.

As for the 3D. Amazing. Some shots are better than others, but, again, it all blends into a consistent overall experience. There were moments where I had to remind myself I wasn't really looking at a table. Yeah, some of the shots were that good. I still don't know what I think of 3D, but Cameron makes a convincing argument.

Of course, as always, movies boil down to story. How does Avatar do? Well, it's kinda complicated.

Anyone who calls the story weak or something like that is seriously wrong and needs to avoid talking about movies. By any objective measure, this is a very good story.

But here's the thing, this isn't any other movie. This is the most expensive film ever made. When you're watching the most expensive film ever made, you story feels like it should be the greatest story ever told on film. And I just can't say that about Avatar. The Dark Knight, for its flaws, is a story worthy of being the second-highest grossing film of all time.

But if I can get into some spoiler territory for a moment, it's break down the story for Avatar. Guy gets to go on cool mission purely through chance. Guy has a special place in the hearts of his human masters. Guy falls in with the native tribe. He bounces between his tribe and his military masters, learning the culture of the native tribe. The guy falls in love with a woman from the native tribe. Eventually, the human masters attack the natives. The guy tries telling the natives to leave, but they don't listen and now think he's a traitor, even though they just accepted him. The humans destroy their home. The guy does something crazy to get back in with the natives. He leads them to attack the human base. The humans decide to preemptively attack one of their holy spots. Big battle ensues, natives win. Humans are evicted from Pandora.

Is this a good story well told? Yes. But is it as good as the stories for movies like The Godfather, The Dark Knight, or Groundhog Day? Well, eh. I hate to say this, but no.

And that's why I have a hard time digesting this movie. Terminator 2 had a story that was profound. I don't even know why, but it just was. With The Dark Knight, I immediately and viscerally knew that it was one of the greatest movies I've ever seen.

Anyone who says Avatar isn't a good movie - again, please don't talk. Nobody likes a hater. But, ultimately, I don't think more money, time, effort, and vision have ever been put into a film. It's a shame all that time and effort couln't have been spent on a five star story instead of a four star story.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 12:05:05 AM by ReaPsTA »
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2009, 11:58:14 PM »
As always Reap, the in-depth look is much appreciated. :tup
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2009, 12:06:27 AM »
Here's what I will say. Unquestionably see this in theaters. Not since The Dark Knight has there been a comparable cinematic experience.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2009, 12:08:55 AM »
I can't wait to see this Sunday.

A bit off-topic Reap, but what movie would be before The Dark Knight that is comparable cinematic experience?

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2009, 12:10:00 AM »
I can't wait to see this Sunday.

A bit off-topic Reap, but what movie would be before The Dark Knight that is comparable cinematic experience?

Probably Iron Man.

Something I thought of. The movements of the CGI characters were completely natural. I don't know if they looked photo realistic, but they moved like real actors. Cameron's motion capture technology paid off.
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Offline progmonster

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2009, 12:17:38 AM »
I love how in the new edition of Entertainment Weekly they not only leave Avatar off both reviewers top 10 lists for best films of the year, but they make it seem like they forgot about their review for it and stuck it in a small box on one of the last pages, giving it a "B" grade. :laugh: ("As a spectacle, Avatar is indelible-a true rush-but as a movie it all but evaporates as you watch it.)

Look, I think why there are a few of us "haters" is because we loved the gritty realism of the CGI and FX of the old days. Not this new "in your face" video game looking, clean, sterile, motion-capture, blue/neon, "bloom-effect" crap. And we wanted our Lord and savior, James Cameron, back. Not this new turd who took over his body...

I'm sorry that I have an opinion. I said the same things when Spiderman was released, and everyone cried and screamed at me. I hated that film to death. What a turd of a movie. And now people are slowly realizing that it was a pile of crap, too. It just takes a few years for the shit to clear from people's eyes.

 :corn

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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2009, 12:23:46 AM »
Wait, have you actually seen the movie yet?
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Offline progmonster

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2009, 12:25:32 AM »
Wait, have you actually seen the movie yet?

 :lol

No. I'm just being a shithead! :P

I think I'll go see it tomorrow, though. Maybe a matinee...

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Online Fiery Winds

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2009, 01:43:13 AM »
I can't wait to see this Sunday.

A bit off-topic Reap, but what movie would be before The Dark Knight that is comparable cinematic experience?

Probably Iron Man.

Something I thought of. The movements of the CGI characters were completely natural. I don't know if they looked photo realistic, but they moved like real actors. Cameron's motion capture technology paid off.

This.  I just saw it again (took my brother and his friend) and really picked up the subtleties of the characters, especially the facial expressions.  That's what sold me on the realism of the character. 

Offline Scurvy!Dreams

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2009, 02:47:57 AM »
Must see movie, in theatres, in 3D.

For other thoughts, it's late, so I agree with Reapsta. (Except I don't have as big a hard-on for Dark Knight as he does.)

Offline Sigz

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2009, 03:22:43 AM »
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Offline faemir

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2009, 04:45:45 AM »
Has anyone noticed that the people in this thread have said it's a crap movie haven't seen it, while those who have said it's great? :azn:

Offline shadowfex

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2009, 05:13:31 AM »
Has anyone noticed that the people in this thread have said it's a crap movie haven't seen it, while those who have said it's great? :azn:

In my time on these boards I have never seen this sort of over the top criticism of a movie from people who haven't actually watched the movie.

"Once he had forests and mountains that were only his - listening to him. Once he would run through the summer days catching memories for ages to come. Now he is dressing this naked floor with his flesh and blood, and time passes by. His trade of pain might just have lead him to deal with consequence for some change as time passes by"

Offline Chino

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2009, 06:28:19 AM »
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!

I got back around 2:30 this morning, and am still blown away by how amazing this movie was. I at no point felt like I wanted the movie to end. Looking around Pandora was a pleasure in itself. I wouldn't change a thing in that movie, I thought it was perfect. I can't remember the last time I walked out of a movie feeling so satisfied. Go see it.

Offline faemir

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2009, 07:57:03 AM »
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!

I got back around 2:30 this morning, and am still blown away by how amazing this movie was. I at no point felt like I wanted the movie to end. Looking around Pandora was a pleasure in itself. I wouldn't change a thing in that movie, I thought it was perfect. I can't remember the last time I walked out of a movie feeling so satisfied. Go see it.

The only thing not perfect was his silly new haircut near the end :lol

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2009, 08:47:20 AM »
Look, I think why there are a few of us "haters" is because we loved the gritty realism of the CGI and FX of the old days. Not this new "in your face" video game looking, clean, sterile, motion-capture, blue/neon, "bloom-effect" crap. And we wanted our Lord and savior, James Cameron, back. Not this new turd who took over his body...

See I'm really curious about this statement.  What movies does this describe?  Just to name a few...
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Offline zepp-head

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2009, 09:15:54 AM »
Has anyone noticed that the people in this thread have said it's a crap movie haven't seen it, while those who have said it's great? :azn:

In my time on these boards I have never seen this sort of over the top criticism of a movie from people who haven't actually watched the movie.



Really?  I sure have.


I'm hoping to go see this on Tuesday.

Offline faemir

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2009, 10:48:56 AM »
Has anyone noticed that the people in this thread have said it's a crap movie haven't seen it, while those who have said it's great? :azn:

In my time on these boards I have never seen this sort of over the top criticism of a movie from people who haven't actually watched the movie.

Really?  I sure have.


I'm hoping to go see this on Tuesday.

Have fun ;D

Offline ehra

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2009, 11:01:05 AM »
I'm sorry that I have an opinion. I said the same things when Spiderman was released, and everyone cried and screamed at me. I hated that film to death. What a turd of a movie. And now people are slowly realizing that it was a pile of crap, too. It just takes a few years for the shit to clear from people's eyes.

Since when are people suddenly saying Spiderman is shit? Spiderman 3, yeah. And plenty of people hated that one at release anyway.

Offline zepp-head

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2009, 11:06:36 AM »
While we're on the topic of Spider-Man in a James Cameron related thread, has anyone seen the screenplay he wrote for a Spider-Man movie?  It might make you reconsider what you think of the guy.  :lol

https://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/s/spiderman-script-screenplay-james-cameron.html

Offline faemir

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2009, 11:18:11 AM »
While we're on the topic of Spider-Man in a James Cameron related thread, has anyone seen the screenplay he wrote for a Spider-Man movie?  It might make you reconsider what you think of the guy.  :lol

https://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/s/spiderman-script-screenplay-james-cameron.html

Well that's long.

Offline zepp-head

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2009, 11:26:45 AM »
It's also absurd and hilarious.

Some highlights:

Doc Ock is now Proffessor Octopus

He has an assistant named Wiener, which leads to some hilarious descriptions (Peter came face to face with the hulking Wiener)

He calls his mechanical arms "Waldos", which also leads to some hilarious descriptions (his WALDOS akimbo like the cartoon cat)

Most of the story is about Ock trying to steal Peter's homework

One of the characters is nicknamed Shooshoo

Ock calls himself Spider-Man a lot for no reason

Ock's catch phrase is "Okey Dokey", he says it about 15 times

Dialogue like "Holy jumping jelly beans" and "You are the dummiest administrator"


Offline progmonster

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2009, 12:48:32 PM »
the gritty realism of the CGI and FX of the old days.

See I'm really curious about this statement.  What movies does this describe?  Just to name a few...

Jurassic Park, Terminator, Terminator 2, Star Wars episodes 4 5 6, Bladerunner, Alien, Aliens, etc. Those are just a slim few that I can come up with at the top of my head at the moment. And I'm not just talking about CGI, if you noticed, but FX in general as well.

I think I'm just becoming a grumpy old man who can't give up my love for maverick film-making....(and sorry about the Spiderman topic, I just hate that movie so much it hurts)

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Offline faemir

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2009, 03:48:17 PM »
the gritty realism of the CGI and FX of the old days.

See I'm really curious about this statement.  What movies does this describe?  Just to name a few...

Jurassic Park, Terminator, Terminator 2, Star Wars episodes 4 5 6, Bladerunner, Alien, Aliens, etc.

So you would rather have the subpar cgi in those old movies rather than a revolutionary new one that looks practically real? :-\ [insert stuff about the rancor etc here]

Offline Sigz

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2009, 03:49:52 PM »
I'd rather see use of more actual props and models with appropriate use of CG rather than these movies that are 50% CGI.
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Offline progmonster

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2009, 03:58:25 PM »
Yup.

And a lot of the FX were not CGI, but they were also subtle at times even. I'm being crabby, and I should stop trying to defend my views about Avatar when I haven't seen it on the big screen with 3D glasses yet. I am only basing this on the crappy trailers and footage that have been shown to us online. Maybe they rendered the footage better for the bigger screen, and made the environments look less like Halo than they do in the preview footage. This seems to be the case, because every kid across the nation came in their pants this weekend over it.

(Just for the sake of the argument, I'd rather have crappy FX than the "best-ever CGI work" if said CGI is done in spite of the rest of the elements that go into a film)

@SIGZ: I AGREE 100%!!!!!!!!!!

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Offline faemir

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2009, 04:26:04 PM »
Yup.

And a lot of the FX were not CGI, but they were also subtle at times even. I'm being crabby, and I should stop trying to defend my views about Avatar when I haven't seen it on the big screen with 3D glasses yet. I am only basing this on the crappy trailers and footage that have been shown to us online. Maybe they rendered the footage better for the bigger screen, and made the environments look less like Halo than they do in the preview footage. This seems to be the case, because every kid across the nation came in their pants this weekend over it.

(Just for the sake of the argument, I'd rather have crappy FX than the "best-ever CGI work" if said CGI is done in spite of the rest of the elements that go into a film)

@SIGZ: I AGREE 100%!!!!!!!!!!

Fair enough, but the CGI is not done in spite of the rest of the film - it is perfectly done, this is why it's such an achievement, and not just cgi-whoring like 2012. It's craploads of uber advanced CGI, done pretty much perfectly, and because its a step up in technology, not just the latest good looking cgi, but more of a Star Wars kind of step up, it is even more astounding.

I think you just need to go see it really, it's pretty jaw dropping, and I hate using CGI for the sake of CGI, trust me :)

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2009, 04:34:30 PM »
I have some free tickets to see it, so I'll definitely go, but I know I'm going to be put off by the CG.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2009, 04:38:18 PM »
If it helps, I just came back from seeing it and I can very assuredly tell you that Reap was dead-on.  The plot isn't groundbreaking, but the CGI is certainly not a substitute for quality writing.  The movie tells its story well and the characters are rich and well-developed.
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Offline progmonster

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2009, 05:11:32 PM »
I hope it's good. It's not like I want this film to be bad. I didn't get the chance to see it today, but I'll try sometime this week.

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Offline faemir

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2009, 06:15:42 PM »
I have some free tickets to see it, so I'll definitely go, but I know I'm going to be put off by the CG.

Not if you can't tell it's CG :neverusethis:

Offline FiberglassMoon

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2009, 06:17:08 PM »
I really enjoyed it.  The CGI was astounding, and the plot, although predictable and not totally original, was better then I had expected.  The most amazing thing is that this is by far the most extensive and realistic creation of a CGI world from scratch.  It didn't feel like some made up and ridiculous planet, but a place that could actually be real.  

All in all I think it is a must-see movie.  Just go see it, you will not regret it.

Oh btw, I didn't get the impression that the native race and the Avatars were actually like 10 feet tall from the commercials