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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #175 on: December 23, 2009, 05:40:25 PM »
In addition to my issues with the film, I think I can explain why I'm so outraged about it rather than just writing it off as a bad film and moving on.
First, people seem to be confusing "Those were amazing effects" with "That was an amazing film". The second is that it seems anytime I or someone else speaks out against this film, someone will come back basically trying to convince us that that's an invalid opinion, and that we just didn't give it a chance (which I did). I'm not accusing people here of doing that; this forum actually has one of the more civil discussions of the film I've seen. It has happened to me a lot though, more often than not after I was asked for my opinion.

You know, I can't really call you out here, because I do the same thing with other movies, but to be fair to Avatar, the effects are part why it's a great film. If the effects are even marginally less amazing, you don't buy Pandora and the Na'vi, and the emotional arc of the film falls apart. If the Sci-Fi military porn is any less well done, you don't buy that these are really human armies 200 years into the future. And on and on and on and on.

In many cases, the CGI in the Star Wars prequels could have been removed completely or replaced with practical effects and the movie either wouldn't have suffered or would have actually been better. I don't think Cameron is perfect, but I'd say virtually every special effect you see on the screen actually is necessary in some capacity to telling the story. So good effects don't make a good film, but they are a bit part of telling the story, especially here.

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My first point can be backed up by the fact that Avatar is actually in contention for a Best Picture nomination at the Academy Awards. I'm sorry, but even if someone absolutely loved the film, they have to admit that such a nomination would be bullshit.

Well, the Academy did expand the amount of best picture noms to 10. I'm not saying you can't do it, but here's the challenge to anyone complaining about Avatar potentially being nominated. Name ten better films. I fully expect people to do it, but I want to actually see the effort put into it.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #176 on: December 23, 2009, 06:06:42 PM »
In addition to my issues with the film, I think I can explain why I'm so outraged about it rather than just writing it off as a bad film and moving on.
First, people seem to be confusing "Those were amazing effects" with "That was an amazing film". The second is that it seems anytime I or someone else speaks out against this film, someone will come back basically trying to convince us that that's an invalid opinion, and that we just didn't give it a chance (which I did). I'm not accusing people here of doing that; this forum actually has one of the more civil discussions of the film I've seen. It has happened to me a lot though, more often than not after I was asked for my opinion.

You know, I can't really call you out here, because I do the same thing with other movies, but to be fair to Avatar, the effects are part why it's a great film. If the effects are even marginally less amazing, you don't buy Pandora and the Na'vi, and the emotional arc of the film falls apart. If the Sci-Fi military porn is any less well done, you don't buy that these are really human armies 200 years into the future. And on and on and on and on.

In many cases, the CGI in the Star Wars prequels could have been removed completely or replaced with practical effects and the movie either wouldn't have suffered or would have actually been better. I don't think Cameron is perfect, but I'd say virtually every special effect you see on the screen actually is necessary in some capacity to telling the story. So good effects don't make a good film, but they are a bit part of telling the story, especially here.

Quote
My first point can be backed up by the fact that Avatar is actually in contention for a Best Picture nomination at the Academy Awards. I'm sorry, but even if someone absolutely loved the film, they have to admit that such a nomination would be bullshit.

Well, the Academy did expand the amount of best picture noms to 10. I'm not saying you can't do it, but here's the challenge to anyone complaining about Avatar potentially being nominated. Name ten better films. I fully expect people to do it, but I want to actually see the effort put into it.

All very good points, especially that second part.  I can tell you for my own part that I can name only a few movies from this year that are on equal footing with Avatar, and plenty more that were horrendously bad, but I can't say I saw anything this year that I enjoyed more.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #177 on: December 23, 2009, 06:23:11 PM »
I haven't seen many movies this year, but Star Trek would rank up there with Avatar.

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #178 on: December 23, 2009, 06:50:36 PM »
I agree but I wouldn't say Star Trek surpassed it by any means.
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Offline faemir

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #179 on: December 23, 2009, 06:54:46 PM »
Inglorious Basterds, Watchmen, Star Trek, District 9 - all great, but they don't beat Avatar for Best Picture for me.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #180 on: December 23, 2009, 06:55:51 PM »
I actually didn't like Watchmen at all.  I don't understand the hype around it at all.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #181 on: December 23, 2009, 06:58:52 PM »
I actually didn't like Watchmen at all.  I don't understand the hype around it at all.

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Offline glaurung

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #182 on: December 23, 2009, 07:02:56 PM »
I actually didn't like Watchmen at all.  I don't understand the hype around it at all.

I agree. I think they tried to fit way too much into way too small an amount of time.
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Offline faemir

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #183 on: December 23, 2009, 07:04:33 PM »
I actually didn't like Watchmen at all.  I don't understand the hype around it at all.

I agree. I think they tried to fit way too much into way too small an amount of time.

It's already long enough, and they managed to fit most of it in. Have you read the graphic novel?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #184 on: December 23, 2009, 07:13:20 PM »
I hadn't read it, and I really found it was far too much of a downer to actually enjoy.
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Offline Scurvy!Dreams

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #185 on: December 23, 2009, 07:57:02 PM »
In addition to my issues with the film, I think I can explain why I'm so outraged about it rather than just writing it off as a bad film and moving on.
First, people seem to be confusing "Those were amazing effects" with "That was an amazing film".
I think for most people, "I really enjoyed watching that movie" equates to "that was a great movie." Which is fair, they're just not that into film. And for all the endless flaws I could list about the film, I did have a fantastic time watching it. Some of the most fun I had at the movies this year. And I'll keep recommending the movie to everyone I talk to, even though I know it's not truly great.

As for Academy Best Picture contention, that's silly. I could see it getting a nod because they've expanded the category to 10 nominees. If Avatar continues to make a lot of money, it'll be exactly the kind of crowd favourite they expanded the category to include. (With no intention of actually rewarding it.)

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #186 on: December 23, 2009, 09:27:39 PM »
Inglorious Basterds, Watchmen, Star Trek, District 9 - all great, but they don't beat Avatar for Best Picture for me.

lol I would say all of those except Star Trek beat out Avatar in my book, especially Watchmen. But at the same time, Moon, Hurt Locker, and 500 Days of Summer all beat it out as well, so I can't say it's really ranked super high.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #187 on: December 23, 2009, 09:30:54 PM »
Wow, only one on your guys' lists I have seen is Star Trek, and probably the only other notable one would be Up!.

Offline FiberglassMoon

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #188 on: December 23, 2009, 10:35:12 PM »
I havent seen Basterds, but Avatar was a small notch ahead of District 9 (which I loved).  I hadn't read the graphic novel for Watchmen, so a lot of the stuff in it had me lost, making not nearly as enjoyable as Avatar.

Oh and just a couple of thoughts on the movie itself 5 days after viewing it:

Here's the thing (in my eyes) about the story: yeah, it wasn't original, and yeah, it was very predictable, but it still kept me engaged and interested in the movie.  It wasn't groundbreaking, and had its flaws, but it did its job.  It caused me to actually give a shit about the Na'vi at the end, and was still very immersive (The fact that I am even still thinking about the movie 5 days after seeing it is evidence, because if a movie sucks it's quickly, sometimes instantly, forgotten).  

And as for the CGI stuff: I can't remember a single character's name from 2012, and it took me a while to remember what the movie was even about.  My immediate memories of 2012 are essentially just the CGI end-of-the-world foolishness scenes.  But, that is not the case with Avatar.  It's a more advanced movie then 2012 technically, but the CGI isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I think Avatar.  Instead, it's characters, major events in the story, relationships, etc, as opposed to awesome eye candy shots.  I think this is testament to how Cameron produced amazing special effects, but didn't allow them to take over the film.  Sure, his story was far, far from the best, but I still enjoyed it, and to me it wasn't overtaken by the CGI, but used it as a catalyst.

Additionally, I'm no film expert, so don't take what I say too seriously, as its all subjective.  And also, I am usually very critical of movies, and rarely really enjoy myself at the movies. But I really enjoyed myself at Avatar, which I probably why I thought it was great.  That and the fact that I'm a sucker for (good) epic, SciFi, and High Fantasy movies. (LotR gets me every time when they are on back to back to back, and I always waste the whole day watching them)

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #189 on: December 24, 2009, 07:10:10 AM »
Honestly, if a non-famous director had made the exact same film with the exact same effects and everything, someone would be considered crazy for suggesting it get a best picture nod.


I respectfully disagree with that statement.

Offline faemir

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #190 on: December 24, 2009, 07:43:29 AM »
https://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/1333-Avatar

Great video review that puts forward good reasons for why it's great.

Offline ariich

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #191 on: December 29, 2009, 03:55:03 AM »
I have absolutely no desire to see this movie. It looks like a three hour CGI wankfest.
I've actually heard reviewers basically say "When you get past the poor writing and plot, it's great!".

Call me old fashioned, but I actually like a good narrative and well written dialog in my films.

Screw that, IT WAS EPIC. The visuals weren't just CGI wankfest, the animals, the world, and culture of the Naa'vi was outstandingly thorough and original. The plot was predictable, but in the good way that is delivered so well that it feels brilliantly well done. The CGI is merely a means to do the film, which is why it took Cameron a decade to get the technology to make the film he had always wanted to do, unlike say 2012 which was a 2 year development to cash in on conspiracy theories and cgi.

Bottom line: great writing, well constructed plot, outstanding visuals, insane cgi.

tl;dr: don't talk crap, it was amazing.


(oh and FYI, it has 94% cream of the crop on rotten tomatoes, and every film has some detractors, so whoever said what you quoted is just one of those silly idiots).
Saw it yesterday, and I agree with all of this.

Plot is predictable (come on, it's James Cameron, wtf did anyone expect) but still really solid, dialogue was mostly great just a few weak moments, but the characters and the visuals and the direction were stunning.

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Offline Logical Nightmare

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #192 on: December 29, 2009, 04:52:48 AM »
I saw it yesterday. I usually don't like typical American movies with weapons and explosions and cheesy "I love you"-scenes.

Maybe it was because of the visual effects.

Maybe it was because I love fantasy.

Maybe it was because there weren't many cheesy scenes and not too many explosions.

Because I fucking loved it and all I can think of is that I want to see it again.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #193 on: December 29, 2009, 06:46:50 AM »
I agree that the CGI was only a part of why its great. The action, the escapism and fantasy and camera work etc were all great. You felt how Jake felt when he was the Avatar. Ok, you knew he was gonna become him at the end and everything would be ok. But that was part of what made it great IMO. If the story was horribly confusing and in depth, it would have subtracted greatly form the FUN. Watching it made me feel like when movies were proper movies, that didnt rely on explosions and CGI to tell the story. James Cameron could have rush released this in 1999 to cash in on Titanic's success, but instead he waited ten years until he could make the movie he wanted to. Nothing felt over the top in this film to me. It was thoroughly enjoyable and I can't wait to see it again.  :)

Offline axeman90210

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #194 on: December 29, 2009, 06:50:00 AM »
to sum up the review I posted in the movie thread, Avatar was about half an hour too long to be carried by effects alone
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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #195 on: December 29, 2009, 07:08:05 AM »
I am seeing it for the 4th time Thursday morning. Imax 3D of course.  :metal :metal :metal

Offline Elsydeon

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #196 on: December 29, 2009, 07:10:12 AM »
I'm going to see this for the first time in Imax 3d tonight at 10  :D

Offline axeman90210

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #197 on: December 29, 2009, 07:11:25 AM »
I am seeing it for the 4th time Thursday morning. Imax 3D of course.  :metal :metal :metal


oh come on now, just stay home and watch Fern Gully, close enough :P
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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #198 on: December 29, 2009, 07:21:12 AM »
I am seeing it for the 4th time Thursday morning. Imax 3D of course.  :metal :metal :metal


oh come on now, just stay home and watch Fern Gully, close enough :P

Fern Gully is straight, but it is no Avatar.

Offline ariich

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #199 on: December 29, 2009, 07:43:39 AM »
I am seeing it for the 4th time Thursday morning. Imax 3D of course.  :metal :metal :metal


oh come on now, just stay home and watch Fern Gully, close enough :P
:lol Awesome, I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw some obvious parallels to Fern Gully!

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Offline Dr. SeaWolf

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #200 on: December 29, 2009, 06:36:00 PM »
Got back from seeing it today in 3D, and while the movie itself was breathtaking and amazing, I felt that the 3D was just an annoying gimmicky distraction, and I enjoyed the movie in spite of the 3D rather than because of it.  It frankly gave me a headache during the first half of the movie while I acclimated to it, and it made my wife ill, keeping her from enjoying it at all.

In short, if you haven't seen the movie yet, definitely see it because it's awesome, but avoid the 3D.

Offline Elsydeon

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #201 on: December 29, 2009, 06:42:07 PM »
Got back from seeing it today in 3D, and while the movie itself was breathtaking and amazing, I felt that the 3D was just an annoying gimmicky distraction, and I enjoyed the movie in spite of the 3D rather than because of it.  It frankly gave me a headache during the first half of the movie while I acclimated to it, and it made my wife ill, keeping her from enjoying it at all.

In short, if you haven't seen the movie yet, definitely see it because it's awesome, but avoid the 3D.
Im out the door to see the 3d now, will leave my opinion when i get back or in the morning.

Offline Dr. SeaWolf

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #202 on: December 29, 2009, 06:44:37 PM »
You're seeing it in Imax though, so there's probably a difference there.  I saw it in a normal theater that probably wasn't equipped for the technology.

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #203 on: December 29, 2009, 06:49:04 PM »
I am seeing it for the 4th time Thursday morning. Imax 3D of course.  :metal :metal :metal


oh come on now, just stay home and watch Fern Gully, close enough :P
:lol Awesome, I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw some obvious parallels to Fern Gully!

dude, all I needed was someone voiced by Robin Williams and I would have been set :D
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Offline zepp-head

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #204 on: December 29, 2009, 07:14:36 PM »
Saw it in IMAX 3D yesterday.  It was a pretty decent film, but really almost the entire experience rests on the visuals.  Amazing as they are, I don't know how well the film stands on its own without them.  As good as most of the CG was, I never bought the Na'vi, maybe because their design is a little goofy.  I also felt the complete CG scenes kinda battled with the live-action ones.  Maybe it was the 3D, or how big the screen was, but I had to readjust my focus every time they switched between them.

Offline Dr. SeaWolf

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #205 on: December 29, 2009, 07:21:28 PM »
I had the exact same sensation.  The CG scenes were much easier to watch in 3D than the live-action scenes.  Both gave me a headache though.

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #206 on: December 29, 2009, 08:46:57 PM »
In addition to my issues with the film, I think I can explain why I'm so outraged about it rather than just writing it off as a bad film and moving on.
First, people seem to be confusing "Those were amazing effects" with "That was an amazing film".
I think for most people, "I really enjoyed watching that movie" equates to "that was a great movie." Which is fair, they're just not that into film. And for all the endless flaws I could list about the film, I did have a fantastic time watching it. Some of the most fun I had at the movies this year. And I'll keep recommending the movie to everyone I talk to, even though I know it's not truly great.

As for Academy Best Picture contention, that's silly. I could see it getting a nod because they've expanded the category to 10 nominees. If Avatar continues to make a lot of money, it'll be exactly the kind of crowd favourite they expanded the category to include. (With no intention of actually rewarding it.)

Surely isn't that the entire point of this movie though? A fun action movie with incredible visuals. I love a well thought out film with an amazing plot and script as much as the next guy but I'd struggle to think of many movies I ENJOYED as much as Avatar upon first viewing, for the first 20 to 30 mins the 3d irked me a little (as it has done in every 3d movie ive seen) but importantly with this movie after that I completely forget the movie was even in 3D till the credits rolled I got so immersed. To me thats what cinemas all about, losing myself in a movie for 2 hours or so and not coming back to reality until the credits roll. If a movie ticks that box for me it's a truely great movie regardless of any faults it may have. However I don't think Avatar will hold up to repeated viewings when its eventually released on DVD and Blue Ray, it's the kind of movie I'd wanna see in a theatre over and over though!

Offline Volk9

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #207 on: December 29, 2009, 08:49:12 PM »
I had the exact same sensation.  The CG scenes were much easier to watch in 3D than the live-action scenes.  Both gave me a headache though.

I saw it in 3D at a regular theater; no problems for me
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Offline emindead

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #208 on: December 29, 2009, 10:29:32 PM »
Saw it today in 3D. The story, honestly, nothing special. There were times where I was saying "James Cameron, you are boring me. I'm gonna fall asleep..." but as soon as the battle scenes started, that's when it got interesting. To me, there were many unnecessary characters; just fillers... (the friendly humans -except Sigourney- the "find me a diplomatic solution" guy and that nav'ii cousin of that navi whatever whatever.)

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Re: Avatar (Spoilers likely)
« Reply #209 on: December 30, 2009, 12:55:24 AM »
Saw it today in 3D. The story, honestly, nothing special. There were times where I was saying "James Cameron, you are boring me. I'm gonna fall asleep..." but as soon as the battle scenes started, that's when it got interesting. To me, there were many unnecessary characters; just fillers... (the friendly humans -except Sigourney- the "find me a diplomatic solution" guy and that nav'ii cousin of that navi whatever whatever.)

Parker is in charge of the company and the brains behind the operation? How do you describe him as filler?

I really don't understand your comment at all. Why do you need less characters? The movie was still very straight forward and there was certainly not an abundance of characters.
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