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[Dimitrius]

I don't think Chino was 100% serious about that...

[ReaPsTA]

You're completely deluded. I really enjoyed it, as it was a great time at the movies, and the technical achievement is amazing. But there are soooo many problems with the plot, characters and dialogue it's not even funny.

In a lot of places, it felt like the first draft of a script.

[lordxizor]

Despite all of it's flaws (discussed already in this thread), I thought the movie was amazing. Saw it last night in Imax 3D. My contacts were dried out and my eyes were tearing up towards the end due to only blinking about 6 times throughout the movie. I'm not sure if this will translate well to DVD and repeat watchings due to some of it's flaws, but overall it was a great movie experience.

[Scurvy!Dreams]

In a lot of places, it felt like the first draft of a script.

It does! Which is funny, because the real first draft was written over 10 years ago. And at least one version of the script sounds much better than what we got.

A lot of the film's problems, and some great insight into the earlier script can be read in this monster article: https://www.aintitcool.com/node/43429

Or you can listen to the author discuss the same things in this podcast: https://www.cortandfatboy.com/podcasts/monday-december-21st-2009 starting at 21:08. (Though the whole show is worth a listen.)

[ReaPsTA]

I'm not as critical of the movie as Mike Russel, but he makes a lot of new points. At some point, I'm gonna have a coherent opinion of this movie.

[Super Dude]

I'm not as critical of the movie as Mike Russel, but he makes a lot of new points. At some point, I'm gonna have a coherent opinion of this movie.

This.  He made a lot of good points, and that original script sounds incredible.  I can see why it didn't make it to screen though, in this family-friendly market we have nowadays, not to mention that chances are it would've suffered in the box office even if it did get stellar reviews, for the same reasons.

[ReaPsTA]

What Russel seems to forget is that the movie's already over two and a half hours long. If you added the other stuff back into the movie, it would run at least three hours.

[Super Dude]

True, or Cameron could forego the cutesy stuff altogether, but then he'd just be making another Alien movie.

[ReaPsTA]

True, or Cameron could forego the cutesy stuff altogether, but then he'd just be making another Alien movie.

Well, I mean, here's the thing. Has anyone been able to boil down to a sentence or two yet what's wrong with the movie's story? I mean, the flaws are obviously there, but that do they come down to? From what I can tell, the overall problems are:

 - Too on the nose with its message
 - Nothing that unexpected really happens
 - Too many scenes that we knew were coming
 - Too many things are too simple
 - Dialog is kinda problematic.
 - A couple moments that are just unintentionally funny, like the beginnings of Na'vi sex.

But I mean, those five points are still five separate points. What's the single unifying theory of what went wrong with Avatar's story? In my mind, it's the lack of complexity. I don't know about other people, but I would have been willing to sit through a three hour version of Avatar if it was significantly improved. But I don't know if that flies with the general movie-going public.

[Super Dude]

Those were my thoughts exactly; beautiful cinematography are really all you need these days, which is pretty sad in my opinion.  Don't get me wrong, I still think Avatar was brilliant.  What distinguishes it from other CGI porn is that instead of trying to do bigger and better than contemporaries, Cameron has actually gone ahead and pushed the envelope on what is possible.

The part that's rather unfortunate is that if you give audiences anything more than that, you'll be met with complaints.

[ReaPsTA]

Mike Russel actually makes a good point in his podcast. The very stripped down narrative just isn't what Cameron's good at. Cameron's good at taking a lot of different ideas and melding them together based around simple ideas. But when you just have the simple ideas, at least the way Cameron does it, it feels incomplete.

[Super Dude]

And so that's what we got.  It really makes me wish he'd go back in a few years and give us his original vision of Avatar.

[zepp-head]

Then clearly you've never seen Willow or THX 1138.   I honestly can't say which is worse; they're both utterly shit.

Cute, but yes I've seen them both.

[Super Dude]

Don't tell me you liked Willow?

[ReaPsTA]

And so that's what we got.  It really makes me wish he'd go back in a few years and give us his original vision of Avatar.

It might happen to some extent. Apparently he did actually film the Earth scenes.

On the podcast Scurvy linked, the guys were discussing how Avatar is kinda like Star Wars, with both its advantages and flaws. But there's one crucial element where I disagree with them.

The Star Wars original trilogy story is simple, but it's genius (even if Lucas didn't realize it when he made it, and still doesn't realize it now). Everything you think is going to happen does happen, but it happens in an interesting way. You know Luke is gonna fight the empire. But it happens because Storm Troopers massacre his house while he's gone. You know Han is going to come back at the end, but he does it by saving Luke from Vader. You kinda know that Vader's going to redeem himself and save Luke, but the journey to that point makes it a huge moment when it happens. You know Luke is gonna be temped to the dark side, but Lucas pushes it as far as he possibly can.

To James Cameron's credit, he understands the idea of setups and payoffs. If something important happens in a movie, you have to lay it in so it doesn't come out of no where. If you say something important exists, we then have to see why it's important. The problem is that the setups and payoffs in Avatar are completely predictable. The moment we hear about riding the huge bird, we know that Sully is going to do it. And when he does, it doesn't happen in an interesting way. The whole plot really just kinda feels like that. You can do a plot where the audience knows what's going to happen, but you have to do it in a super interesting way. Star Wars did that, Avatar kinda doesn't.

[Super Dude]

I actually agree with that completely, even the points unrelated to your main argument.  You, my friend, know your movies.

[Super Dude]

Reap your PM box is full so I'll post my response here:

I was into film a number of years ago but anymore.  However, I would love to see what you've got; I am still a writer, after all, and I still know how to read scripts.

[Chino]

I don't think Chino was 100% serious about that...

I was about 95% serious. This movie is definitely in my top 5. Regardless of the the slight flaws, the movie is still amazing. I never wished I lived in a made up world as much as I do for Pandora. The whole concept that all of nature can be tapped into by everything else within it is just awesome.

[Super Dude]

The movie is certainly very immersive.  I know a lot of people complain about it being nothing more than a 150-minute tech demo, but it really isn't; it actually does a great job at making Pandora believable.

[zepp-head]

Don't tell me you liked Willow?

I'm trying not to derail this too much, but like is a strong word.  I think it's absurd, but I wouldn't call it bad.

Beyond that, yes, Reap does bring up some interesting points.  I've enjoyed the film theory classes I took as an undergrad and I love talking to my coworkers in the film department about all of the things casual viewers don't address and what is really going on with stories.  It'll be even more exciting next fall when I get to take the advanced grad level screenplay writing and film criticism courses.

[faemir]

I read up and listened to Mike Russel, and he critiqued it very well, with all his points having good reason behind them. but most of them don't bother me, and that's just personal opinion, I still love the film to bits

[Jamesman42]

****SPOILER****






Wasn't it just a bit strange or awesome or even funny when Neytiri was holding Jake at the end in her arms? I mean, she was so much bigger than his human body, and the contrast between the Na'vi and human races were very strong to me in that scene.

[Super Dude]

I was half-expecting/hoping for a scene that would display the shock/surprise/awe Neytiri must have felt seeing the real Jake.  I dunno, I feel like she was *too* familiar with him already or something.

[Chino]

I was half-expecting/hoping for a scene that would display the shock/surprise/awe Neytiri must have felt seeing the real Jake.  I dunno, I feel like she was *too* familiar with him already or something.

I think the point was that she didn't care about his exterior. She knew him on the inside and at the time that is all she cared about. Much like Jake didn't care she was a 9 foot tall, blue, cat/human thing.

[Sigz]

So I just saw it, and was very pleasantly surprised. The story was rather predictable and such, but it was a great looking movie, and the CG really didn't harm it as I feared it would. Not my favorite of the year, but very good.

[Scurvy!Dreams]

What Russel seems to forget is that the movie's already over two and a half hours long. If you added the other stuff back into the movie, it would run at least three hours.

Yeah, that's the problem. Even if you could squeeze it all into 3 hours, you'd have to take out a lot of the beats that really flesh out the world. I feel the movie is pretty perfectly paced up until the Home Tree is destroyed, so to add stuff back in, you really mess up that aspect. To hit on both points you need a very long movie, or to split it into two movies.

Adding a bit more complexity to the story is definitely needed. I think that's what the crux of what was wrong with the story, that you were trying to get at. It's all too simple. Story is too simple, dialogue: too simple, message: too simple.

I think the one thing Mike Russel brings up that's absolutely needed is the prologue on Earth that establishes just how bad things are. Without it, the bad humans are just a bunch of moustache-twirling caricatures. Plus, you could do an amazing Wizard of Oz-style jump where instead of black and white to colour, you go from dour 2D Earth to amazing 3D Pandora.

[Valdor]

The movie is certainly very immersive.  I know a lot of people complain about it being nothing more than a 150-minute tech demo, but it really isn't; it actually does a great job at making Pandora believable.

This exactly. I actually felt a little sad leaving the theater, because the movie had made me so immersed in the world of Pandora.
Overall, Avatar was a true surprise for me. I went in expecting to see another 2012, but I actually got a good movie instead.
And yes, I saw it in 3D.

[ReaPsTA]

Plus, you could do an amazing Wizard of Oz-style jump where instead of black and white to colour, you go from dour 2D Earth to amazing 3D Pandora.

OOooo. That's good. Contrast always helps when trying to define things.

[Super Dude]

Plus, you could do an amazing Wizard of Oz-style jump where instead of black and white to colour, you go from dour 2D Earth to amazing 3D Pandora.

OOooo. That's good. Contrast always helps when trying to define things.

+1

[zepp-head]

Plus, you could do an amazing Wizard of Oz-style jump where instead of black and white to colour, you go from dour 2D Earth to amazing 3D Pandora.

This....would be incredible.

[faemir]

I'm really excited about what Cameron will do with the second one - after all, he'll need to expand the storyline, and that might well include your earth scene

[TL]

In addition to my issues with the film, I think I can explain why I'm so outraged about it rather than just writing it off as a bad film and moving on.
First, people seem to be confusing "Those were amazing effects" with "That was an amazing film". The second is that it seems anytime I or someone else speaks out against this film, someone will come back basically trying to convince us that that's an invalid opinion, and that we just didn't give it a chance (which I did). I'm not accusing people here of doing that; this forum actually has one of the more civil discussions of the film I've seen. It has happened to me a lot though, more often than not after I was asked for my opinion.

My first point can be backed up by the fact that Avatar is actually in contention for a Best Picture nomination at the Academy Awards. I'm sorry, but even if someone absolutely loved the film, they have to admit that such a nomination would be bullshit.

[Sigz]

My first point can be backed up by the fact that Avatar is actually in contention for a Best Picture nomination

I kinda figured it would, but I agree it really doesn't deserve that.

[TL]

Honestly, if a non-famous director had made the exact same film with the exact same effects and everything, someone would be considered crazy for suggesting it get a best picture nod.
I hate how the world works sometimes.

[Sigz]

Except a non-famous director never would have been able to make this movie in the first place.