Nightwish...

[cramx3]

Also, there was that one concert with no real singer.  They performed with Elize (from Amaranthe) and Alyssa (now in Arch Enemy) who were both guest singers for opener Kamelot.  They sung some songs and had the crowd sing others.  There's videos of this on youtube that are really cool.

That is one I would have loved to see professionally made as like an extra on a DVD. The youtube vids are really cool with them reading lyrics off of paper and everything.

Denver if I recall correctly... while Floor was flying across the Atlantic learning the setlist.  I also recall this as the firm end for Annette, because she got all pissy that the band didn't cancel the show(s) because of her illness.

Yea, I believe that show was the nail in the coffin as Annette didn't take that very well and with whatever other tensions built up between them, that was it.

[The Walrus]

IMO, tying in a bit with the Sons of Apollo thread, one of the reasons I'm not as interested in Nightwish as I used to be is because of the way the band has treated the singers. The method of firing Tarja was low as dirt, and kicking Anette off for her illness without even talking to her beforehand was another crap move. I really, strongly dislike Tuomas's diva attitude and the way he's treated both of them. It's good to know he said Floor will be Nightwish's last singer, but for the love of god, it better not end the same way when the day comes.

[Adami]

IMO, tying in a bit with the Sons of Apollo thread, one of the reasons I'm not as interested in Nightwish as I used to be is because of the way the band has treated the singers. The method of firing Tarja was low as dirt, and kicking Anette off for her illness without even talking to her beforehand was another crap move. I really, strongly dislike Tuomas's diva attitude and the way he's treated both of them. It's good to know he said Floor will be Nightwish's last singer, but for the love of god, it better not end the same way when the day comes.

I agree about Tarja, though I'm cool she's gone. However, I don't think your assessment of Anette is accurate. I think there were major problems that no one was talking about publicly and that was the final straw.

[cramx3]

I really, strongly dislike Tuomas's diva attitude and the way he's treated both of them.

I agree.  He comes off as a real ass in both firings, even if we don't know the whole extent of what happened with Annette. 

[The Walrus]

@Adami - that's true. I of course have no idea about the behind the scenes stuff, but both times I saw them over the years they seemed to have an absolute blast on stage, hell Anette was trading smiles with Marco and Tuomas and Emppu and she was all smiles and dancing around, even on that first tour post-DPP where she had a few shows breaking down crying because of the pressure and some fans not happy with her. But just based on how she was fired and how Tuomas fired Tarja, I gotta give benefit of the doubt to Anette. Someone said something about DPP showing just how egotistical Tuomas is (I mean hell, the whole damn Imaginaerum film and album concept is about HIM!) - totally agree and it just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Would like to hear the truth someday but perhaps it's best left in the past. I do have to say even though Endless Forms doesn't blow me away, hearing Floor on Weak Fantasy gives me chills. What a voice.

[Adami]

I think Tuomas definitely has a HUGE ego and is totally full of himself. I also think Anette was not getting along well with the band and firing her was the right way to go. They've said she was not a right fit for the band. They shouldn't be forced to keep someone who is a bad fit, and the whole Denver show situation just was the event that pushed everything.

[MirrorMask]

One would think that a massive worldwide search for a singer, that was not even limited to Finland unlike Maiden when Steve Harris was bent on having a british singer, would have produced the right fit... uh well.

I'm happy Floor is in the band but Imaginareum is my favorite Nightwish album. And yeah, leaving Tarja a letter after a concert that goes "You're full of sh*t and your husband is annoying too, you're out. PS: All the internet knows it" is the worst way to fire a band member ever.  Even worse than Jon Schaffer firing Tim Owens the day before Christmas by mail.

[Adami]

Yea there's no excuse for how they handled Tarja.

As far as hiring Anette, that was pretty odd too. She was rejected actually and then basically fought to get in the band. Maybe Tuomas thought he'd get laid or something and didn't. I dunno.

[The Walrus]

Yea there's no excuse for how they handled Tarja.

As far as hiring Anette, that was pretty odd too. She was rejected actually and then basically fought to get in the band. Maybe Tuomas thought he'd get laid or something and didn't. I dunno.

Wait wow, really? I didn't know that. Surprising how they ended up with her then.

Like I said earlier DPP was the album that made the band 'click' with me. I'm gonna go listen to Meadows of Heaven now. That song makes me choke up as it gets close to the end.

[Grappler]

IMO, tying in a bit with the Sons of Apollo thread, one of the reasons I'm not as interested in Nightwish as I used to be is because of the way the band has treated the singers. The method of firing Tarja was low as dirt, and kicking Anette off for her illness without even talking to her beforehand was another crap move. I really, strongly dislike Tuomas's diva attitude and the way he's treated both of them. It's good to know he said Floor will be Nightwish's last singer, but for the love of god, it better not end the same way when the day comes.

I don't think of Tuomas as a diva, but more of THE band leader.  He writes the music, he has the vision.  The same goes for Jon Schaffer of Iced Earth - if you're not on board with what he sees is right for the band, you're gone.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  Some bands aren't a democracy.  Nightwish is one of those bands where it's just a freight train moviing forward, and if you aren't fully buckled in, then there's no stopping the train just for you.

As others have said, Annette's firing was totally just - you don't come out in the media/social media and slam your bandmates for performing with replacement singers when you are ill.  They also had Floor lined up already because of Annette's (publically unannounced) pregnancy.  After dealing with a true diva in Tarja, they just fired Annette, rather than trying to deal with someone who felt that they were more important than the band. 

Tarja, I see both sides.  The open letter was kind of shitty, but at the same time, firing her was going to create such a massive shitstorm from the fans because she was so beloved.  So by posting the open letter online, they could just open themselves up to the fans and everyone gets the news.  The Once Upon a Nightwish book really shows how awful Tarja and her husband were.  They turned down offers to open up as direct support for Metallica because Marcelo/Tarja thought that they should be paid more.  How dumb is that - you can ask for more money, but don't flat out say no to opening to the biggest band in the world at a time when Nightwish wasn't quite as known as they are now.

[vtgrad]

Wow... where have I been?

I'd heard of NW in passing and listened (just listened, no vids) to a few songs and liked the arrangements and the heaviness; based on hearing the music alone, I was very impressed with the vocalist (Floor) and really liked the style of the band.  Then... I saw a video.

Floor commands that stage (and she honestly appears not to try as she looks to be a little back of center stage); not only that, she's got serious, serious power with her voice and serious control as well.  Personally, she reminds me of how Plant commanded the stage for LZ and how Back commanded the stage for Skid Row (which I saw live as a young teen... say what you what, Bach was imposing during a live show).  It also doesn't hurt that Floor is easy on the eyes.

I've got to say the band looks like they're having a blast as well in the vids I've seen... love seeing the interaction between the guitarist and everyone else (walking by and touching them, throwing the horns up to band-mates, etc) and love seeing the smiles on all the faces.  Lyrical content is a little off-putting for me personally, but Floor's voice and power are almost hypnotic.

I am a fan of Evanescence (kind of had a crush on Amy as a younger man because she reminded me of my girlfriend at the time... who later became my wonderful wife) so I guess I'm a bit familiar with this type of music... but I've not seen anyone command a stage like Floor in a long time.  Again, it looks like she's not even trying to command it.

[cramx3]

Again, it looks like she's not even trying to command it.

I agree, she just does it naturally because she is a pretty tall person (and looks ever taller next to Empuu) and with her voice.  From the two times I've seen NW with her and the two blu-rays, she actually looks like she isn't totally comfortable being up front and moving around the stage (the second concert with the long walk out stage on Vehicle of Spirit that no one makes use of), but she doesn't need to.  She can just stand there and tower over everyone with her body and voice. 

[The Walrus]

IMO, tying in a bit with the Sons of Apollo thread, one of the reasons I'm not as interested in Nightwish as I used to be is because of the way the band has treated the singers. The method of firing Tarja was low as dirt, and kicking Anette off for her illness without even talking to her beforehand was another crap move. I really, strongly dislike Tuomas's diva attitude and the way he's treated both of them. It's good to know he said Floor will be Nightwish's last singer, but for the love of god, it better not end the same way when the day comes.

I don't think of Tuomas as a diva, but more of THE band leader.  He writes the music, he has the vision.  The same goes for Jon Schaffer of Iced Earth - if you're not on board with what he sees is right for the band, you're gone.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  Some bands aren't a democracy.  Nightwish is one of those bands where it's just a freight train moviing forward, and if you aren't fully buckled in, then there's no stopping the train just for you.

(I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, I just find this part really interesting for discussion)

That's fair, I think you're entitled to that opinion. Me, personally, I think it's a slippery slope. I had a long post written up about why I don't like band leaders having carte blanche with the other members belonging in the band, I think bands should be a democracy and even if the leader has all or most of the ideas they should allow the other guys to get their ideas in *if* they want them in. That's why I don't much have a problem with Tony Kakko leading Sonata Arctica - he's open to all the other guys' musical opinions on his work and takes them into consideration, and the other guys are cool with him writing all the stuff.

But then there's Stratovarius - if you're not familiar with the whole saga, check it out on their biography on metal-archives.com or wikipedia, from the publicity stunt around 2004 to Tolkki's departure in 2008. His 'vision' for the band removed 3 of the biggest components of the band's sound on the last album with him - almost no solos or keyboards and almost no high-register vocals. There's definitely a reason not a single song from that album has ever been played live. Iced Earth I'd be here all day because I love/hate Jon Schaffer and some of his political conspiracy nonsense drives me up a wall.

But with regards to Nightwish, I have no idea what the songwriting process is like. I do really hope Floor gets some input on their next album though, because I don't think her voice was used to its full potential on EFMB! I'm really looking forward to it regardless.

[Adami]

Well the other guys do get a good say in Nightwish. Well, some of them anyway. Marco has written entire songs musically and Empu has written plenty of riffs. I thin the singers are the only ones who get no say in writing, but Anette said she was able to improvise quite a bit on the albums.

[jingle.boy]

Tuomas ... he is most definitely a diva.  And I don't think he has a problem with it.  He sees NW as his baby, and feels entirely entitled to command (virtually) complete control.

Firing of Tarja... total shit-storm on both sides.  There's two sides to every story, and the truth lies somewhere between.  I firmly believe that to be the case.  Both sides could've handled the lead up to, and the firing much better.  In the long run, neither of them have suffered as a result of how things went down though.  I always watch End of an Era, and notice some of the looks that Tuomas has towards Tarja, and wonder if he's thinking "you'll get yours at the end of this show"

Firing of Annette... circumstances (pregnancy/illness) make it look worse than it was.  Right from the lead up to that tour, it was a badly kept secret that all was not right with the five of them - and Annette was the expendable member.

[MirrorMask]

After Kiske returning with Helloween "Never say never" is stronger than ever as a motto, but... if there's ever a reunion that is NOT gonna happen, I believe it would be Tarja with Nightwish. Not even say for an encore 20 years down the line when they're all older and wiser and detached from the whole thing.

[jingle.boy]

Skid Row / Bach is the only reunion that I believe will NEVER happen.

[MirrorMask]

Skid Row / Bach is the only reunion that I believe will NEVER happen.

Didn't Bach said that he was open to the idea? I remember a comment on the likes of "Well, we should do it now that we still have all our hair" or something.

[The Walrus]

After Kiske returning with Helloween "Never say never" is stronger than ever as a motto, but... if there's ever a reunion that is NOT gonna happen, I believe it would be Tarja with Nightwish. Not even say for an encore 20 years down the line when they're all older and wiser and detached from the whole thing.

Hell, I think Axl playing with Slash was more unlikely than Kiske with Helloween!!

[gazinwales]

The stories about Tarja in the book are really just the tip of a massive iceberg.
The author was threatened with legal action if he published some of the more 'interesting' antics of Tarja and her husband.
In fact proceedings were (at a later stage) started against him for what was in the book, but later dropped.

Yes they could have handled it better, but as much as I love the Tarja's NW era and her voice, she pretty much got what she deserved for her behaviour in her last 12-18 months in the band.

[vtgrad]

Skid Row / Bach is the only reunion that I believe will NEVER happen.

Didn't Bach said that he was open to the idea? I remember a comment on the likes of "Well, we should do it now that we still have all our hair" or something.

I think he did... think a fan saw the "Skid Row" emblem on a tour poster or something like that and set it to Bach over social media; I think he and the guys talked some but they (Skid Row) ultimately took who they have now.  With Snake saying something like "I'll take ease of living over money any day" (I'm paraphrasing).

I'd like to see them get back together... the tension between those guys made some great music.

Floor's got my vote from the little bit I've seen of the other two... maybe that is because she is my first experience with them.

[The Walrus]

Thankfully ZP Theart is more than a good fit for Skid Row and is a MASSIVE fan of Bach (Skid Row is, I think, his favorite band, after all) so I'm sure he has plenty of respect for Bach and that whole situation.

[Architeuthis]

I'm kind of glad I missed the Drama part of NW.  I just got on board with them in the last week or two and Floor is the only singer I know anything about. She is incredible and certianly owns the stage. I watched the two Vehicle of Spirit shows on blu-ray and blown away by how good they are, I'm actually quite FLOORED!  (Sorry, I couldn't resist)   
 Nightwish would be fools to ever think she is expendable, they better keep her and never look back! She is so versatile, Angelic to operatic to a great rock singer to full on metal that could more than easily give Lzzy Hale a serious run for her money in the grit dept. Plus she's fearless and smiles a lot while singing. The whole band seems fearless, especially the bass player which is a good singer too.
 I personally think NW might achieve new heights in popularity with this line-up. I need to take a break from them for a couple of days because I can't get their catchy songs out of my head. Lol

[Adami]

I just hope their next album utilizes her vocal capabilities more fully (and is also a better album in general).

[Architeuthis]

What about that new drummer on the new dvd's? I know he's not the long term drummer, but is he just filling in or is he their permanent knew drummer. He's amazing on VOS concerts!

[The Walrus]

Kai Hahto is Wintersun's drummer and I don't think he's a permanent replacement but he is a long-time fill-in while Jukka gets himself right. Jukka took an indefinite hiatus 2-3 years ago because of insomnia affecting his health. No idea what his status is at this point.

I met Kai back in 2012 when Wintersun finally got over to Chicago. These days I actively loathe Wintersun but Kai is an incredibly kind and cool person and a beast at the drums.

[gazinwales]

Kai isn't currently active in Wintersun.
He isn't on the current WS tour, he is recovering from some sort of injury (hand, wrist or arm), they have . 2 guys filling in for him.
He wasn't on the new album either, that was all Jari and programmed drums.

[fadetoblackdude7]

Hopefully Jukka recovers from his insomnia problems and returns soon.

[Adami]

Hopefully Jukka recovers from his insomnia problems and returns soon.

I like Jukka's presence more, but this guy is a tighter player and I like the sound of his drums way more.

[The Walrus]

Kai isn't currently active in Wintersun.
He isn't on the current WS tour, he is recovering from some sort of injury (hand, wrist or arm), they have . 2 guys filling in for him.
He wasn't on the new album either, that was all Jari and programmed drums.

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up gaz. I haven't followed Wintersun for a long time (apart from the hilarity re: their social media the past few years) so wasn't aware of that.

[Grappler]

I'm wondering if Jukka will even come back, or if he will remain behind the band's business aspects.  Yes, he could overcome the insomnia that was plaguing him while on the road with the band - but if he were to rejoin them on tour, would it reoccur?  Is that something he can handle, or does he stay out of the band and in better health?

[MirrorMask]

I'm wondering if Jukka will even come back, or if he will remain behind the band's business aspects.  Yes, he could overcome the insomnia that was plaguing him while on the road with the band - but if he were to rejoin them on tour, would it reoccur?  Is that something he can handle, or does he stay out of the band and in better health?

I was thinking that as well. Now that the tour is said and done, it's probably time to announce if he's coming back or not, since after all a new tour was already announced for next year. The possibility of him just staying the manager behind the scenes is surely present.

[abydos]

I wouldn't be surprised if he also opts out to be the drummer for the studio releases and skipping out on the tours. They seem to be decently popular so it seems like a good gig to be their touring drummer and they might have plenty willing guys for that part.

[The Walrus]

Should get Alex Landenburg. Met him touring with Luca's Rhapsody and he's one of the coolest dudes around and his playing is phenomenal.

[Architeuthis]

Kai seems like a nice fit to the band. When I watched the dvd's, I assumed he was their long-term drummer because he was so polished and had such a great drum sound. I'd be sad not to see Kai on the next tour. No disrepect to Jukka, I'm just not familiar.