Genesis Appreciation/Discussion

[Stadler]

Stads, I'm glad you mentioned Mouse's Night.   There are lots of people that treat that song like a throw away from the Mach II era, but I absolutely LOVE that song.   The juxtaposition of the music when the story changes back and forth from the couple to the mouse is just brilliant.

I love the musical crescendo when the cat get's his comeuppance. 

It got ragged on a lot when Phil himself made fun of singing about "bread bins" (as if the rest of the Genesis catalogue is all about Satan, banging broads and doing blow). 

It's sort of a touchy subject around here for some, and he's nowhere near as overt as Neal, but I also get a vaguely religious vibe from many of Tony's lyrics.   Again, not preachy, but certainly with an underlying message if you're the kind to dig for them.

[Fritzinger]

I listened to DUKE a lot in the last days and did anyone notice how phenomenal Phils drum work is on this record? Just listen to Duke's End.

[Orbert]

I still have a five-disc changer in the stereo in the living room, and Duke permanently resides in the Disc 1 tray.

The other day, I came home from work plopped my ass in my easy chair, and turned on the tunes.  Back when I was in school, this would have been the most natural thing in the world.  Walk into my bedroom, or my dorm, and fire up the tunes.  I didn't have a TV in either of those places back in the day, so that wasn't an option anyway.  But at some point I realized that the norm was to come home and turn on the idiot box, just because it was there.  And there's never anything good on TV anyway.  Anything I actually wanted to watch, I'd recorded on the DVR, which means looking through the list, and finding something to invest the next 45 minutes into.  Screw that.  Easier to put on some tunes.  I'm glad I figured that out.

So anyway, now the default is to come home on put on some Genesis, if there's no one else around.  (Disc 2 is Foxtrot, by the way.)

[Fritzinger]

I feel ya. When ever I come home, I FIRST put on an LP and THEN I take off my jacket.
I tend to listen to bands on heavy rotation for some time and then I get into something else (again) and listen to that on heavy rotation. But ever few weeks, Genesis comes back to heavy rotation and EVERY TIME I am amazed by their music.

[SoundscapeMN]

I listened to DUKE a lot in the last days and did anyone notice how phenomenal Phils drum work is on this record? Just listen to Duke's End.

yes. It may be his best drum performance ever.

[KevShmev]

I know that many hate the gated drum sound that Collins popularized, but he really was a terrific drummer in is day.  Turn It on Again is one helluva groove.  Put that song in the hands of a drummer who couldn't make the song move like that and it wouldn't have been nearly as effective.

[Fritzinger]

Good thing Chester Thompson is one of those guys who could make it move. But whenever Phil would go take a seat behind his kit, the song gained a whole new level of groove. This was the case with every song where he did that during live shows imo.

He became popular with his tom-rich playing but I think, his Hi-Hat and Snare chops are just as awesome (Dance On A Volcano, Behind The Lines Face Value Version, Cinema Show).

[Stadler]

A lot of the Genesis playing DIDN'T overplay that gated sound; the problem is that the hits - his, Genesis, and Gabriel - had them, so they stuck in the collective consciousness. 

From that period, he plays some pretty intricate and subtle stuff on Plant's first two solo albums as well. 

Finally, I've said it before, but that notion of the band going to the next level when he goes back and joins Chester, my favorite recorded musical moment is that part of the "In The Cage" medley after the "In The Cage" portion when he goes back and the band just starts to roar.   

[Orbert]

The double-drumming stuff that Phil and Chester did live was incredible.  Also very cool visually, with the mirror-image symmetry of Phil (left-handed) and Chester (right-handed) with Tony in the middle, Mike and Daryl out front.  We saw them on The Mama Tour (yellow album) and it was astounding.

I think my favorite jam by those five is the Abacab jam, or maybe Duke's Travels, but the In The Cage medley is pretty sweet, too!

[Silent Man]

I listened to DUKE a lot in the last days and did anyone notice how phenomenal Phils drum work is on this record? Just listen to Duke's End.

I loved his drumming from the beginning when I started listening to Genesis in the 70s - and it just became better and better. Great technical skills with a touch of jazz (which I like), and then singing and songwriting skills on top of it all. His performance in When In Rome was fanatastic, both as a drummer and a singer /showman (and that goes for the rest of the band as well). Just imagine performing in front of 500.000 ppl and not making one wrong step. Such a shame that he had to stop drumming. I know he had a sort of successful neck surgery, but haven't heard if it would be possible for him to start drumming again. Honestly I think he has given it up.
In many ways I compare him with Bill Bruford from Yes (drumming skills alone) - he was as distinctive and drumming-wise as talented as Phil, just another style of drumming. And they also both did some fusion /jazz work additionally - BB with 'Bruford' and Phil with Brand X. It's really seldom in these days to hear a drummer which can be recognized on his sound alone.

[Stadler]

Phil is on my drumming Mt. Rushmore (John, Neil, Mike and Phil) and it still amazes me how he moved from style to style, played it well, but still kept his identity.   

I saw the Musical Box a couple weeks ago - second row, right in front of the drummer - and the arrangements just blew me away (again!!).   I found myself following the drum cues through out the show and it was really really good. 

[Fritzinger]

Phil is on my drumming Mt. Rushmore (John, Neil, Mike and Phil) and it still amazes me how he moved from style to style, played it well, but still kept his identity.   

I saw the Musical Box a couple weeks ago - second row, right in front of the drummer - and the arrangements just blew me away (again!!).   I found myself following the drum cues through out the show and it was really really good.

He's quite possibly my favorite drummer ever. It's not understandable to me that many people don't even know he is a drummer
It's not only the Genesis stuff. His drumming on, say, Face Value, Hello! I Must or But Seriously is just as awesome.

[SoundscapeMN]

or Brand X? (Marscape especially).

[Fritzinger]

The last Genesis item arrived the other day, finally completing my Genesis collection, after years of searching and saving up (and spending way too much!) money. Very proud of this.

I also have all albums from From Genesis To Revelation to We Can't Dance as original issues, including all the live albums. But that's too much to portray it like this. Calling All Stations is just too expensive to get as 1997 version.

Oh I almost forgot: The last item to arrive was the green vinyl box set. I saved the best for last.

[Orbert]

Most impressive!  Obi-wan has taught you well.

[OpenYourEyes311]

awesome!

[ytserush]

The last Genesis item arrived the other day, finally completing my Genesis collection, after years of searching and saving up (and spending way too much!) money. Very proud of this.

I also have all albums from From Genesis To Revelation to We Can't Dance as original issues, including all the live albums. But that's too much to portray it like this. Calling All Stations is just too expensive to get as 1997 version.

Oh I almost forgot: The last item to arrive was the green vinyl box set. I saved the best for last.

Nice!

That almost looks like my Rush collection...

[Fritzinger]

Thanks! I wish they would release the live albums as such a box set that would be so neato, since Live Over Europe does not exist on vinyl and The Way We Walk is split up into short and long songs (who the fuck had that idea anyway).
It would be cool if they did the same with unreleased stuff and B-Sides etc. But I think that's VERY unlikely to happen.

[Stadler]

So what "Calling All Stations" are you looking for?  Specifically?

[Fritzinger]

So what "Calling All Stations" are you looking for?  Specifically?

I have the CD and the 2007 vinyl from the boxes. But of all other albums I have older issues as well. But the original CAS vinyl is not so easy to get and I already have the new one to listen to.

[Fritzinger]

I would like to keep this discussion up, so: I have been listening to We Can't Dance the past days (I know right, he gets the green box sets and then listens to WCD!?) and I think it's actually a pretty good album. It doesn't have the triggered, programmed (whatever you want to call it) drums from Invisible Touch and Genesis. I am talking about those specific sounds in Second Home By The Sea, Silver Rainbow, Invisible Touch, Tonight, etc. The drums here are overproduced as hell (as is the whole album) but I think it just sounds awesome. The first time I really listened to No Son Of Mine and the snare came in like a slap in the face - I was pretty impressed. If a snare is triggered - please trigger it like this.

Plus, the album has some great songs. The mentioned No So Son of mine is way too long and thought through to be a single, but still it was one - and a huge hit at that. Jesus He Knows Me is saved by Phils groovy drumming and belongs in the funny, sarcastic department of Robber, Assault, Just A Job, Harold The Barrel, Scenes From A Night's Dream. I even like Tell Me Why quite a bit, the harmonies are not stupid (Tony!) and it grooves. Sure, lyrics are a little flat, but still a good song. Did I say groove? Listen to the last minutes of Living Forever. Two of the best minutes of the album. This is a great example of how few Collins needs to make something groove. And the ending fill is awesome. Man what a drummer.
There's also two 10 minute songs, of which I personally like Fading Lights better. The keyboard solo (Tony!) in the middle reminds of older days. The whole song sounds like a swan song - which it was for in retrospective for the trio (not sure if they knew so though).
Dreaming While You Sleep is a Mama/In The Air Tonight like song (I dont want to say copy): drum machine, Collins eery vocals, HUGE toms, cymbal-free drums. I gotta say I also like Hold On My Heart, because of Tonys unconventional harmonies (Tony!).

There are two songs I would have included into the album: On The Shoreline and Hearts On Fire, which should have replaced Never A Time and Since I Lost You or Way Of The World imo. Two awesome tunes.

This got a bit out of hand I didn't want to write so much but then I did :-D
What do you think about this album? I think it's a bit underrated among Genesis and Prog fans, but in a lot of ways it takes more time to build up songs and set moods than the loud, happy, dancy Invisible Touch. And it's not really a prog-free album.

[NoseofNicko]

I think We Can’t Dance is a very good pop album. I like most of the songs on it. The title track is absolutely terrible though.

[Zydar]

There are two songs I would have included into the album: On The Shoreline and Hearts On Fire, which should have replaced Never A Time and Since I Lost You or Way Of The World imo. Two awesome tunes.

Oh I agree with you, those are two great songs.

[Kwyjibo]

We Can't Dance is a great record but it's a bit too long. Some of the ballads are too cheesy and do nothing for me, so they could have ditched one or two.

Driving The Last Spike is where its at for me. Fading Lights is great too. And I even like I Can't Dance, funny little tune and Genesis doing AC/DC-riffs is not what you would have expected. 

Genesis and Invisible Touch were a little too much no the poppy side but this record, at least for me, is the perfect blend of the more accessible pop tunes and some great proggier ones. Wouldn't have minded if they had continued in that direction.

[DTA]

Fading Lights is easily a top 10 Genesis song for me. Such a strong track, and a great "farewell" to this version of the band. I think We Can't Dance could've been shortened by two tracks (Never A Time and Tell Me Why) and the rest of the songs also seem a bit bloated and could use some trimming. But I think the songs are all pretty listenable.

[Dave_Manchester]

Re: We Can't Dance, there's a great album in there somewhere, but it's just far too long, making it only a good one. I'm a fan of keeping albums to around the 40-45 minute mark (it served all the classics well). I'd have put it out with this track-listing:

No Son Of Mine
Jesus He Knows Me
Driving The Last Spike
I Can't Dance
Dreaming While You Sleep
On The Shoreline
Living Forever
Fading Lights

As for the songs, Driving The Last Spike is my favourite Genesis track, and No Son Of Mine is probably top 10 material.


Fritzinger, I have a question - that picture you posted, those vinyls are all Genesis??

[Zydar]

Tell Me Why needs more love here. A fine poppy track with a 12 string guitar throughout.

[Dave_Manchester]

Musically it's ok but it's a rare example of a song where the lyrics are just so distractingly awful (and in this case inappropriate given the upbeat poppy feel of the music) that it takes away from my enjoyment. Usually I can tune bad lyrics out, but with that one I can't. I'm generally not a fan of musicians taking on 'serious issues' in their songs, because most of them don't seem to have a clue what they're talking about and end up trivialising whatever issue they're claiming to care about (Phil himself said he saw a news report about the plight of the Kurdish people and "mixed it" with his 'thoughts' on Bangladesh and Ethiopia in order to write the lyrics), but posing a series of infantile rhetorical questions about the Gulf War set to a bouncy pop melody is just a step too far into the cringe-worthy for me.

[romdrums]

Re: We Can't Dance, there's a great album in there somewhere, but it's just far too long, making it only a good one. I'm a fan of keeping albums to around the 40-45 minute mark (it served all the classics well). I'd have put it out with this track-listing:

No Son Of Mine
Jesus He Knows Me
Driving The Last Spike
I Can't Dance
Dreaming While You Sleep
On The Shoreline
Living Forever
Fading Lights

As for the songs, Driving The Last Spike is my favourite Genesis track, and No Son Of Mine is probably top 10 material.


Fritzinger, I have a question - that picture you posted, those vinyls are all Genesis??

I did the same with We Can't Dance and did this tracklisting:

No Son of Mine
Jesus He Knows Me
Driving the Last Spike
Dreaming While You Sleep
On the Shoreline
Living Forever
Hold on my Heart
Fading Lights

I thought about keeping the title track, but I like the overall darker vibe this tracklisting provides.  That, and I like Hold On My Heart.

[Fritzinger]

I agree the lyrics are not their best in Tell Me Why. Forgive me, I still like the tune.

No Son Of Mine
Jesus He Knows Me
Driving The Last Spike
Dreaming While You Sleep
Tell Me Why
On The Shoreline
Hearts On Fire
Living Forever
Hold On My Heart
Fading Lights

That's still 64 minutes of music.
BTW, there is a 12" remix of I Can't Dance. That's pretty cool.


@Dave:
No that is my whole collection It's about 800 records.

[Stadler]

I enjoy that album very much, but agree with almost all the sentiments here - too long, sometimes the lyrics get a bit treacly, sometimes a bit too preachy, but instrumentally, that's a strong album.   I too love that last section of "Living Forever", and was a very big fan of the way Fading Lights was presented on stage (with just the three members playing).   

Look, I'm biased, though, because for me, any album that has Phil Collins drumming and Tony Banks playing keyboards is automatically a winner for me.   Yeah, there are songs here and there - I LOVE the "Genesis" album as a whole, but "That's All" is in my top five worst Genesis songs ever, and I LOVE Invisible Touch even though I could do without "In Too Deep", and "Land Of Confusion" is ruined now because of those ridiculous puppets - but I'm a fan of the way those two gentlemen play their instruments. 

[Orbert]

was a very big fan of the way Fading Lights was presented on stage (with just the three members playing).

I didn't realize that they did that.  Pretty cool, and a clear throwback to The Cinema Show, the instrumental section of which was always performed by just Tony, Mike, and Phil, even when Peter and Steve were still in the band.

[Fritzinger]

was a very big fan of the way Fading Lights was presented on stage (with just the three members playing).

I didn't realize that they did that.  Pretty cool, and a clear throwback to The Cinema Show, the instrumental section of which was always performed by just Tony, Mike, and Phil, even when Peter and Steve were still in the band.

And I didn't realize they did that. Why wouldn't they let Steve play on that part? Poor Steve.

I was gonna say (but forgot) that I like the Genesis album quite a lot, too. Only thing is, I love That's All. I think Illegal Alien is a little too fun and a little too long. Just A Job To Do is a cool 70s groover (in the 80s!), although I never got why Tony would imitate a guitar when it could have been played by Rutherford (at least on the studio version, since there is another "actual" guitar playing too). Silver Rainbow is very good, but it would have been way better with a real drum set and a real groove. Same with Second Home. It's Gonna Get Better is often overlooked. But I think it's one of the best songs on the album, with its peculiar string samples and the slow 6/4 groove.
I don't think I have to say anything about Home By The Sea.. and ... Mama. Freakin MAMA.

[Fritzinger]

I just came home and listened to Fading Lights again, man what a song. Those drums...

I think this song was written specifically to be performed by just the three of them. Collins only sings when there's no "real" drums, then he walks back to the set and hits the shit out of it.
I don't know if they knew that this would be their last album together. Maybe they wanted to really go out as a trio, given that this song really sounds like a goodbye, a swan song. Plus, cmon, the name is Fading Lights.

[Orbert]

That's how I've always interpreted it.  It's a song about the end of something that was very cool, but it's the end and we should accept it.  And that's what it was until Tony and Mike couldn't help themselves and made Calling All Stations years later.

was a very big fan of the way Fading Lights was presented on stage (with just the three members playing).

I didn't realize that they did that.  Pretty cool, and a clear throwback to The Cinema Show, the instrumental section of which was always performed by just Tony, Mike, and Phil, even when Peter and Steve were still in the band.

And I didn't realize they did that. Why wouldn't they let Steve play on that part? Poor Steve.

I don't know if it was a matter of "letting" him play.  There's no guitar during that whole 7/8 jam, or if there is, he's just accenting or something.  I think of it as like when the singer leaves for a while when there's a long instrumental.  If there's no guitar, or keyboards or whatever, for an extended section, might as well take a break.  It was just a "special" thing they did during The Cinema Show jam.  Looking at it now, it's probably one of the many things that led to Steve feeling a bit like a less-than-full member of the band or something.