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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #630 on: February 25, 2017, 12:48:52 PM »
Been on a middle-era Genesis binge this past week or so. A lot of it stemmed from randomly putting on ...And Then There Were Three... earlier this week and posting about it in the Big Big Train Facebook group (which generated a LOT of discussion, civil discussion at that!), and so, I've also been spinning the two albums prior to that as well.

While at work, I've had my 9-song track list of A Trick Of The Tail, where I discovered on YouTube one night that someone had compiled all the various versions of "It's Yourself" (I think 3 or 4 different releases of the song) and made a complete version, without the fade-out ending. This may be old news to some, but I had no idea the original ending to "It's Yourself" had the opening keyboard melody from "Mad Man Moon", which makes it the PERFECT segue into that song. This got me thinking about how GENIUS this album is with shared/repeated/reprised melodies and motifs. You've got MMM's opening melody at the end of IY, which is reprised later on in "Los Endos", which has reprises from "Dance On A Volcano" and "Squonk", which itself also features a melody from "Dance On A Volcano" at 5:23. This album is just full of reused melodies and motifs that it almost feels like a concept album. I'm sure a lot of these ideas were from Tony Banks, but I'm glad they all made it (well, not really in the case of "It's Yourself", but thanks to technology, we can now re-insert it into the album). Discovering the real ending to IY has reinvigorated my love for this album, even though I've always ranked it and Wind & Wuthering very highly in my ranking of Genesis albums.

They managed to a similar thing once again with W&W, but I don't think they did it to such an extent. You've got parts of "One For The Vine" featured in the frantic instrumental "Wot Gorilla?", and some reprisals in "...In That Quiet Earth", but other than that, it's not as prominent. I've always wondered if early Dream Theater had been at all influenced by this era of Genesis when it came to them reusing riffs and melodies in IAW and Awake.

Anyways, I just wanted to gush about ATOTT as I have been spinning it at work this past week, as well as W&W at home, and ATTWT in my car. I know a lot of Genesis fans don't rank ATTWT highly, but I've been coming around to enjoying it more and more as I've been re-listening to it this past week. It's an impressive 3-album run for sure, and a great transitional period for the band. They rarely faltered on these 3 albums as they slowly made their way into 80's synth-pop-rock stardom, and for having to follow up some of their best work with Peter Gabriel, these albums were spectacular efforts.

-Marc.
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Offline RoeDent

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #631 on: February 25, 2017, 01:03:19 PM »
Tonight, Tonight, Tonight happened to show up on the radio a few weeks ago, and I fell in love with it instantly.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #632 on: February 25, 2017, 01:10:48 PM »
Maybe it's because I was used to the single version, which I heard a million times in the 80s before hearing the album version, but I think it is the far superior version.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #633 on: February 25, 2017, 07:27:50 PM »
I put "It's Yourself" in between what were originally Side 1 and Side 2 of Trick of the Tail on my iPod.  That's kinda my default place to stash extra tracks.  It's always weird getting to the end of the album and then hearing more.

Speaking of middle-era Genesis, I did the same with "Match of the Day" and "Inside and Out" and added them to Wind & Wuthering, since those tunes were from the W&W sessions.

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #634 on: February 25, 2017, 09:25:35 PM »
I put "It's Yourself" in between what were originally Side 1 and Side 2 of Trick of the Tail on my iPod.  That's kinda my default place to stash extra tracks.  It's always weird getting to the end of the album and then hearing more.

Here's the YouTube video I first heard the full version of "It's Yourself". Like you, I had originally placed that song AFTER "Mad Man Moon", in between the album's two sides, but after hearing the full, unfaded ending, I knew I had to place it before "Mad Man Moon".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgNjiU4PogI


Speaking of middle-era Genesis, I did the same with "Match of the Day" and "Inside and Out" and added them to Wind & Wuthering, since those tunes were from the W&W sessions.

My personal version of W&W incorporates all 3 tracks from that EP, making the album an hour and four minutes long, essentially a double at that point:
Side 1 - Eleventh Earl Of Mar, One For The Vine
Side 2 - Your Own Special Way, Wot Gorilla?, Inside And Out
Side 3 - All In A Mouse's Night, Pigeons, Blood On The Rooftops
Side 4 - Match Of The Day, Unquiet Slumbers For The Sleepers...In That Quiet Earth, Afterglow

It's got a nice flow to it, I think, especially hearing IAO after the frantic instrumental WG. Putting IAO in the first half of the album meant putting the other two in the second half, to balance it out, so I left AIAMN to open the second half, and put the other animal-related tune right after it cuz why not? Oddly enough, "Pigeons" features the words "roof" and "rooftops" in its lyrics, so it seemed fitting to place it between AIAMN and BOTR. This left MOTD, so it got stuck before the closing trio of tracks. Over-all, I've been very happy with this arrangement for over a decade now, and has been the only way I listen to the album

Likewise, every other album after these two that feature non-album tracks (which is every album but the self-titled) have been re-arranged by myself to include those left-over tracks, so whenever I go to listen to Genesis, I get every song from those sessions on any given album.

Unfortunately, I still haven't pin-pointed a decent spot to place "Twilight Alehouse" or "Happy The Man". Any suggestions?

-Marc.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #635 on: February 25, 2017, 09:41:32 PM »
I put "It's Yourself" in between what were originally Side 1 and Side 2 of Trick of the Tail on my iPod.  That's kinda my default place to stash extra tracks.  It's always weird getting to the end of the album and then hearing more.

Here's the YouTube video I first heard the full version of "It's Yourself". Like you, I had originally placed that song AFTER "Mad Man Moon", in between the album's two sides, but after hearing the full, unfaded ending, I knew I had to place it before "Mad Man Moon".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgNjiU4PogI

Wow, that was cool!  I've never heard that extended ending before.  The songs do go very nicely together.  I would even try to cut out more dead air between the two tracks, though it sounds good now.

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #636 on: February 26, 2017, 07:16:15 PM »
I put "It's Yourself" in between what were originally Side 1 and Side 2 of Trick of the Tail on my iPod.  That's kinda my default place to stash extra tracks.  It's always weird getting to the end of the album and then hearing more.

Here's the YouTube video I first heard the full version of "It's Yourself". Like you, I had originally placed that song AFTER "Mad Man Moon", in between the album's two sides, but after hearing the full, unfaded ending, I knew I had to place it before "Mad Man Moon".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgNjiU4PogI

Wow, that was cool!  I've never heard that extended ending before.  The songs do go very nicely together.  I would even try to cut out more dead air between the two tracks, though it sounds good now.

Me either, until a week ago! Hard to believe I've never gotten around to finding out about it until recently. Having that little MMM-tag at the end further solidifies an already near-perfect album for me.

The whole ordeal has reinvigorated my love for Genesis and I have been spinning them a lot over the last week or two.

-Marc.
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Offline Klaus Bergmaier

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #637 on: February 27, 2017, 08:55:06 AM »
My favourite Genesis track by far is Abacab. I know it doesn't have a lot to do with the kind of prog you all (and me too) know and love.I also adore what the bass guitar does on No Reply At All.
Got all their albums plus all solo albums of all members, prefer the Phil era, saw them live in 1988.
My favourite members of theirs is Mike Rutherford.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #638 on: February 27, 2017, 10:06:05 AM »
My favourite Genesis track by far is Abacab. I know it doesn't have a lot to do with the kind of prog you all (and me too) know and love.I also adore what the bass guitar does on No Reply At All.
Got all their albums plus all solo albums of all members, prefer the Phil era, saw them live in 1988.
My favourite members of theirs is Mike Rutherford.

I've long argued that Abacab is one of their most progressive albums.   No two songs sound alike.  Mix of longer, progressive works and shorter eclectic works.  Songs like "Me and Sarah Jane", that sound like poppy nonsense, but are very creative in terms of structure (five sections, none of which repeat), increased use of electronic drums (progressive for the time), horns on one track, etc. 

Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #639 on: February 27, 2017, 10:37:50 AM »
The problem with Abacab is, at least for me, it isn't of consistent quality. Abacab, Dodo/Lurker, Me And Sarah Jane are great, No Reply and Man On The Corner are good, the rest is solid but nothing to write home about and then there's Who Dunnit  :omg:
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline Stadler

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #640 on: February 27, 2017, 10:54:19 AM »
The problem with Abacab is, at least for me, it isn't of consistent quality. Abacab, Dodo/Lurker, Me And Sarah Jane are great, No Reply and Man On The Corner are good, the rest is solid but nothing to write home about and then there's Who Dunnit  :omg:

Well, quality is subjective; when you're putting nine songs and all are radically different, the thought that all nine would resonate with each person equally is not really to be expected. 

Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #641 on: February 27, 2017, 11:36:53 AM »
Yes, quality is subjective, that's why I wrote that for me half of the songs aren't that good and one is completely shit. Don't care that they're different if they aren't good.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #642 on: February 27, 2017, 12:37:26 PM »
For some, time and perspective is a huge factor in enjoying an album, and Abacab is one such album for me. Other than their first and last albums, every other album but Abacab was fairly enjoyable for me when I first got into the broader Genesis catalog. Every other album had their hits and misses with me, but were at least GOOD, but when Abacab came along, I really disliked it. Maybe only 3 or 4 of the 9 songs were enjoyable for me at the time, and even the 3x3 B-Sides weren't that great.

It wasn't until a couple years after I got into Genesis, when I started discovering their B-Sides and non-album tracks and starting making my personal re-trackings of songs for albums/sessions that I started to really dive into what made Abacab tick (since song order was pretty important for me in terms of adding those 5 leftover tracks back in). Given a couple more years with it, I finally grew to appreciate what the band were trying to do with everything on this album, even "Who Dunnit?", which is REALLY weird, but coming from a purely experimental standpoint, the song has some unique charms to it that really make it stand out against pretty much anything else the band had and would do.

Side 1 of the original album is REALLY strong, with the rocking title track, the super-catchy "No Reply At All" with those amazing horns, the sublime "Me And Sarah Jane" (a standout track), and the punchy and syncopated "Keep It Dark" (which uses 6/4 in interesting ways with it's off-beat rhythms). Side 2 gets REALLY weird, but it still sounds interesting to my ears, even now.

For anyone who cares, here's how my personal Abacan Complete track list goes, if anyone wanted to try it out. I took inspiration from both the final album and the "Abacab Complete" bootlegs out there, which had some good ideas, but I didn't like the flow, and I wanted to create a faux-double-vinyl track list:
Side 1 - Abacab, No Reply At All, You Might Recall
Side 2 - Me And Sarah Jane, Keep It Dark, Me And Virgil
Side 3 - Naminanu/Dodo/Lurker/Submarine, Who Dunnit?
Side 4 - Man On The Corner, Paperlate, Like It Or Not, Another Record

I spread out the 5 B-Sides across the four sides/parts of my imaginary double vinyl, with 1 on each (except the whole suite on side 3), and it fills out the album quite well. The "Naminanu/Dodo/Lurker/Submarine" suite is pretty amazing, and I wish they had released it that way. It makes for a far more interesting near-16-minute adventure of 80's Genesis, and I like it more than, say, "Home By The Sea". Hearing all of these songs together make for a great look into what the band was feeling and thinking at the time, with all of their varied influences coming together. At first glance, it really is just a cobbled together mess of different-sounding songs, but when I realized how they were all crafted together, how the performances and forms and instruments were handled, things stood out to me differently than before, and my appreciate for 1981 Genesis grew. I'd even go so far as to say I enjoy this album, original or even my expanded one, more than their self-titled follow-up.

-Marc.
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #643 on: March 04, 2017, 07:39:22 PM »
Any opinions on the remasters?  I finally got the last Collins era remaster and I remember hearing people say there was too much low end.  I think they sound great.  There are a few of the original releases I never heard but comparatively I think the additional low end really makes the music sound better.  One exception would be Live: The Way We Walk that I think the mix is pretty bad on the remasters.  The other instruments are practically drowned out. 

I never have heard any of the Peter Gabriel remasters, though.  I'd be interested to hear if they are much the same.


Offline Mosh

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #644 on: March 04, 2017, 07:54:40 PM »
I think the Peter Gabriel remasters sound pretty good, but it was hard for them to be worse than the original CDs.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #645 on: March 04, 2017, 09:10:49 PM »
The Lamb was when they the sound quality of their albums made the big leap forward, and call me crazy, but the slight flaws on the earlier albums are part of their charm.  Remasters sometimes suck the charm right out of the original mixes.  Not always, of course. Sometimes they really are for the better, but not always.

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #646 on: March 05, 2017, 08:19:09 AM »
I've ordered Duke, which should hopefully be here sometime in the coming week. Looking forward to hearing it. Interesting idea of writing an epic and spreading it throughout the album. Shows they still had the prog in them, even after Gabriel and Hackett left.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #647 on: March 05, 2017, 09:29:18 AM »
I've ordered Duke, which should hopefully be here sometime in the coming week. Looking forward to hearing it. Interesting idea of writing an epic and spreading it throughout the album. Shows they still had the prog in them, even after Gabriel and Hackett left.

I think the original idea was for them to have the epic as one piece but were worried it would be compared to Supper's Ready so they decided to spread it out.  I really would love to hear it all as one piece. 

You're gonna love Duke, though.  Great album. 

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #648 on: March 05, 2017, 09:31:27 AM »
Agree. Collins is absolutely on fire on Duke!!
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #649 on: March 05, 2017, 11:01:29 AM »
Of the post-Hackett albums, Duke is easily my favorite, though I've warmed up to ATTWT and Abacab quite a lot over the years, and for some reason, IT would rank just behind Duke for me - sure it's not overtly proggy, but it's some damn good pop-rock with great synth and keyboard work from Banks, and a ton of catchiness throughout.

-Marc.
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Online Zydar

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #650 on: March 05, 2017, 11:45:28 AM »
Duke is their best post-Hackett album, yeah. Behind The Lines is a perfect and bombastic album opener.
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Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #651 on: March 05, 2017, 11:48:55 AM »
The combination of Behind The Lines and Duchess is just perfection.  :metal
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #652 on: March 05, 2017, 12:16:58 PM »
I'm actually tempted to pick up Invisible Touch soonish as well, mainly down to my current obsession (as pointed out above) with Tonight Tonight Tonight.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #653 on: March 05, 2017, 12:29:52 PM »
Invisible Touch is a great album.  This is what led me down the Genesis rabbit hole.  I really only got it because it was cheap on Amazon and came with a bonus DVD with the videos.  I loved Land of Confusion as a kid, mainly for the video, but after hearing Disturbed cover it I wanted to go back and listen to the original.  I never liked poppy stuff all that much but I kept going back and listening to IT on repeat.  Just a great album in every aspect. 

Of course, the highlight for me is when they still touch on prog.  Domino is a killer song.  10 minutes, still has pop elements and haunting melodies, but probably a bit tough to swallow for the mainstream folk.  The lyrics are just brutal.  It touches on how forgettable tragedies are and how absurd it is we can just move on after seeing them. 

Now you never did see such a terrible thing
As was seen last night on T.V.
Maybe if we're lucky, they will show it again
Such a terrible thing to see
There's nothing you can do when you're the next in line
You've got to go domino.

The fact that this is done during such an upbeat section of the song really drives home how society reacts.  Simply amazing.

Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #654 on: March 05, 2017, 12:55:24 PM »
Invisible Touch is good, if you accept that it's pop-Genesis. I could do without the title track and In Too Deep but I really love the rest.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #655 on: March 05, 2017, 01:29:55 PM »
Ranking the Post-Hackett albums:
Duke
Invisible Touch
...And Then There Were Three...
Abacab
We Can't Dance
Genesis / Calling All Stations

I almost wanted to rank CAS above the self-titled album, but the frequency in which I listen to both these days is about the same, and I probably like about the same amount of each album, percentage-wise, with WCD just slightly above both (and while they're good, WCD does have one too many slow/ballad songs).

Also, I'm thinking, after the Dream Theater Survivor is over, that I would do a Genesis Survivor again. I'm fairly certain I ran the last one, but that was about 5 years ago, so I wouldn't mind bringing it back, especially being the 10th anniversary of the last remasters that came out. I've been on a HUGE Genesis kick lately and would enjoy doing a survivor of their music again. Would anyone here, who perhaps is not familiar with the Polls/Survivor side of this forum, be interested in a Genesis Survivor? It won't launch til around May, so this is a HUGE early head's up, but I just wanted to see if there'd be interest here.

-Marc.
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Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #656 on: March 05, 2017, 01:49:15 PM »
When I got into Genesis, I HATED the pop stuff they did. But over the last 1,5-2 years I got into it more and more and now I LOVE Phil's solo stuff, I LOVE Duke and ATTWT, WCD, but I never got into IT. The sounds are just TOO 80s for me, especially the drums. Maybe one day I will get into it.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #657 on: March 05, 2017, 04:59:58 PM »
I've ordered Duke, which should hopefully be here sometime in the coming week. Looking forward to hearing it. Interesting idea of writing an epic and spreading it throughout the album. Shows they still had the prog in them, even after Gabriel and Hackett left.

I think the original idea was for them to have the epic as one piece but were worried it would be compared to Supper's Ready so they decided to spread it out.  I really would love to hear it all as one piece. 

Correct.  The original Duke suite consisted of:

Behind the Lines
Duchess
Guide Vocal
Turn It On Again
Duke's Travels
Duke's End

There are live bootlegs from that tour only where the play the whole suite as one.  Try to find The Lyceum Ballroom May 7, 1980.

But you're also right that they didn't want to do the same thing as with Supper's Ready and have it be the epic on one side and the rest of the songs on the other side (this was in the days of vinyl, obviously) so it opens and closes the album, and Turn It On Again starts Side Two.  The other songs are arranged in such a way that you could form a larger narrative if you wanted. 

You're gonna love Duke, though.  Great album. 

Also correct.  My favorite of all.  :tup

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #658 on: March 05, 2017, 08:19:17 PM »

Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #659 on: March 05, 2017, 08:40:50 PM »
Excellent! :tup  Pro-shot video and everything, even if the transfer isn't great.  I've only ever heard the boots, never seen footage.

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #660 on: March 07, 2017, 01:11:22 PM »
Yet another example of Genesis generously filling their vinyl albums, Duke is a whopping 55 minutes long. And I thought SEBTP was a long single-vinyl album.

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #661 on: March 07, 2017, 03:53:56 PM »
Yet another example of Genesis generously filling their vinyl albums, Duke is a whopping 55 minutes long. And I thought SEBTP was a long single-vinyl album.

Foxtrot reached 51 minutes, while SEBTP went further with nearly 54. Both Trick and Wind also totaled about 51 minutes, while ATTWT also nearly reached 54. They made some LONG single vinyl albums. What puzzles me is that while Duke was just over 55 minutes, Abacab was stripped back to 47:10, their shortest album since Nursery Cryme, and then their next two were around 46 minutes as well. It's weird because Abacab had FIVE non-album tracks, and Invisible Touch has 3, so they definitely had more than enough music for 53-54 minutes for an album, but I guess their pop-leanings meant they wanted to scale back their albums a bit, perhaps in an attempt to make them all more accessible (even though their self-titled album had the 10 minute "Home By The Sea" duo, and IT had TTT and Domino).

Of course, that all changed when WCD came out and it was 71 minutes long. :lol

-Marc.
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Offline RoeDent

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #662 on: March 08, 2017, 07:30:16 AM »
Why isn't 80s Genesis called progressive pop? Because that's what it is. The ambition of the full-on prog days never left them.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #663 on: March 08, 2017, 08:29:07 AM »
That's not a bad term for it, but for "progressive pop" to work as a genre label, there would have to be enough bands out there with similar characteristics for the genre to exist in the first place.  In the 80's, you might have found maybe half a dozen bands with the combination of chops, ambition, and compositional skill to really be seen as prog, and that's only after you bought the album based on their radio/MTV hits because that's all anyone ever heard.

I'm always happy to find album tracks where the band shows off a bit and goes deep, but that alone doesn't push them into prog-anything for me.  I'll respect them more as musicians, but if the vast majority of their work is firmly in the pop genre, then pop they are.  Genesis never completely lost the prog, but for us to even be aware of that, we had to know first that they came from prog.

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #664 on: March 10, 2017, 01:31:56 PM »
Duke arrived today. Listening now, and Duke's Travels is Frost* through and through. Several parts remind me of Hyperventilate, and the entire thing is reminiscent of Nice Day For It.