Genesis Appreciation/Discussion

[snowdog]

Woot!  The Musical Box will be at the Oriental Theatre in Denver in late February.  Looks like they are doing the Selling England show this time around.  I'm really looking forward to this. 

[Progmetty]

I wanna get into this band, what would you recommend for a prog/psychedelic rock fan?

[jammindude]

Selling England by the Pound or Foxtrot. 

If you like it, get The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway.   

[KevShmev]

I wanna get into this band, what would you recommend for a prog/psychedelic rock fan?

The early stuff - Foxtrot, Selling England by the Pound, etc.  Nursery Cryme isn't something I would call psychedelic, but has enough of an early raw sound that I could see it appealing to you, especially given the strong prog roots.

[NoseofNicko]

Been listening to A Trick of the Tail a lot lately. What an underrated album! It's actually fucking awesome! Mad Man Moon is so beautiful.

[Mladen]

Absolutely. Very underrated and one of my favorites.

[LudwigVan]

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is like a crazy acid trip.

[Orbert]

Been listening to A Trick of the Tail a lot lately. What an underrated album! It's actually fucking awesome! Mad Man Moon is so beautiful.

Musically, it's not that different from what came before, as Peter Gabriel mostly wrote lyrics, and except for The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, there were a lot of songs where he didn't write the lyrics, either.  Banks, Rutherford, and Hackett wrote most of the music, so except for Gabriel's vocals, A Trick of the Tail has everything that made those early albums so great.  And to be honest, during this period at least, I prefer Collins' voice to Gabriel's.

I love that little piano concerto that Banks slips into the instrumental in Mad Man Moon, with the keyboards playing all the orchestral parts.  That's a mini-epic masterpiece right there.

[KevShmev]

Could not agree more.  Love that song.  In fact, that and Robbery, Assault and Battery are easily the two songs from A Trick of the Tail I revisit the most.

[The Letter M]

I just spun ATOTT the other night, and I am always amazed at how good it sounds, both in the writing and sonically speaking (well, at least the '07 boxset remaster/remix). The whole album, plus its one B-Side "It's Yourself", very much feels like Gabriel-era Genesis, as Orbert said, but with a bit of a fresher twist, something new that wasn't present before, and it might just be Collins' vocal deliveries, or it might be something else.

Maybe the growing attention to keyboards and the slow declining prominence of guitars might be that change, too, but before W&W, this album definitely struck a decent balance. I do enjoy all of Banks' parts on this album, though, from all the keyboards and piano involved, like the aforementioned "Mad Man Moon", as well as "Ripples". And that keyboard solo section in "Robbery, Assault, And Battery" is pretty nuts. Trick and Wind will always be two peas in a pod for me, and I often listen to both together as they're both similar, yet different. I always feel like SEBTP is a Spring album, while ATTOT is a Summer album, leaving W&W as an Autumn album (yes, I skipped The Lamb, but its not really tied down to any seasonal feeling to me).

-Marc.

[KevShmev]

Every time I hear the verses to Mad Man Moon, the influence of that kind of style on Neal Morse, the dramatic melodic vocal lines along with piano and some orchestration or mellotron, is more than obvious.

[Stadler]

If "Trick..." is very good (and it is) then "Wind..." is sublime. I think the band was sort of finding it's way with Trick, and so it's a very up and down album for me.   The ROCK of Dance, to the acoustic Entangled, to the ROCK Squonk to the acoustic Mad Man Moon...  Side Two is more evenly paced, but I prefer the bombast in Genesis (my favorite moment in all of recorded music is the medley portion of "In The Cage" on 3SL when Phil and Chester are playing together).

I just think that Wind gets it all right in all the right ways.   It is still second, behind Abacab (and sometimes third, behind The Lamb) in the catalogue, but I think it is a better realization (if somewhat more dark) of what the band was looking for on Trick.

Personally, I like Phil's vocals better than Peter's, though I tend to like his lyrics better (less treacly). 

Huge Genesis fan and I will not pass up the opportunity to remind people that the Surround Sound remixes in the box set(s) are essential listening.   Powerful, powerful stuff (and the interviews about the albums are very candid and revealing, though it's hard to listen to them and not think that the band is done, even if they haven't announced it yet).

[KevShmev]

Wind... might have slightly higher highs than Trick... - One for the Vine is probably the best song from either - but Trick... is so just so damn consistent and flows incredibly well, while Wind... doesn't flow as well, which sure isn't helped by Your Own Special Way, which should have been tossed into the abyss.  Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of Wind..., but while that album sits in my 2nd tier of Genesis albums along with Foxtrot and Duke, Trick... is in that top tier with The Lamb... and Selling England...

[Kwyjibo]

While I absolutely love Trick Of The Tail, Wind & Wuthering never made a big impression on me, I may have to relisten to it, but as of now it's not one I reach for often.

[Stadler]

Wind... might have slightly higher highs than Trick... - One for the Vine is probably the best song from either - but Trick... is so just so damn consistent and flows incredibly well, while Wind... doesn't flow as well, which sure isn't helped by Your Own Special Way, which should have been tossed into the abyss.  Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of Wind..., but while that album sits in my 2nd tier of Genesis albums along with Foxtrot and Duke, Trick... is in that top tier with The Lamb... and Selling England...

As for "flow" I see it just the opposite.  At least YOSW SOUNDS like the rest of the album, even if the lyrics are sappy to the extreme, and it sets up the darker "Wot Gorilla?" perfectly.    I do love "The Lamb..." though, even if almost a quarter of Selling is ruined by the abysmal and horrid "More Fool Me" (more fool me for LISTENING!) and "The Battle of Epping Forest".   

My top five:

1. Abacab
2. The Lamb
3. Wind and Wuthering
4. Duke
5. ATTWT

[KevShmev]

Even though I love Selling England..., I do think it has a weird flow.  With the exception of the end of Cinema Show segueing into the last song, the album sounds like a bunch of songs randomly throw on to the album.  More Fool Me is always one of my first thoughts whenever I see the "great albums with one crappy song" topic. 

[Orbert]

I like "More Fool Me".  No, it's not a great song, but it was an early Phil song that even then showed off his ear for interesting harmonies.  And I kinda like it as an afterthought after the amazing "Firth of Fifth".

[sneakyblueberry]

I just picked up And then there were three, Foxtrot, Genesis Live on record for 20$.  what a steal.  slowly rebuilding the record collection that went up in smoke a few years ago.  having a grand old time revisiting these albums.

[Orbert]

[Stadler]

I like "More Fool Me".  No, it's not a great song, but it was an early Phil song that even then showed off his ear for interesting harmonies.  And I kinda like it as an afterthought after the amazing "Firth of Fifth".

See, I love Phil's voice.  I like it better than Peter, and in fact I think Phil is a better singer than Peter.   Having said that, I like when Phil sings in full voice, when he pushes it.  "Dance On A Volcano".   "Eleventh Earl of Mar".   I HATE his twee falsetto voice, and the start of MFM ("Here am I... while away...") ugh... I'm done.  I can barely get past that (not literally, but it's what I like least about his singing). 

[Orbert]

I just take it as part of the song, part of the delivery.  It starts so quietly, with the singer in great emotional pain, and this is how the story unfolds.  It wouldn't make any sense to start the song full voice.

That said, I completely understand how it bothers some people.

[Mister Gold]

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is like a crazy acid trip.

But oh, what a great acid trip it is!

Seriously, that album is like the musical equivalent of watching a David Lynch or Alejandro Jodorowsky film! Surreal as hell!

[Madman Shepherd]

So about a week ago I decided to look for this thread which I had glanced at before but never read in depth because I knew and listened to very little Genesis.  In the last year I have really gotten into the band and am amazed by what an odd story they have i.e. prog to pop, drummer replacing vocalist but still drumming and bassist replacing guitarist but still...bassing. 

So a lot of your opinions surprised the hell out of me because I agree with a large majority of you.  I figured a lot of you guys would be prog snobs and say "no Gabriel, no Genesis!" but I was wrong.  Here are a few of the things that surprised me. 

-There is a lot of love for Phil Collins led Genesis. 

-Some people even think Phil sings Peter's songs better than Peter! (A few I agree with, such as I Know What I Like but while its true Phil kills it on Supper's Ready, Peter maintains a bit more emotion with his less controlled voice...so much passion!)

-Invisible Touch is an excellent album.  Indeed it is and was my introduction to Genesis as a young child watching the Land of Confusion video on MTV.  Never got into them more than that and I Can't Dance until recently

-Calling All Stations is pretty good!  Weird fade outs at awkward times and maybe too many slower songs but you can't deny it's got some good stuff!

-Duke is brilliant.  Shocked that I don't think Duchess was mentioned once!  Even though I said Peter can sometimes sing with more passion and raw emotion than Phil, Duchess proves Phil has a shit ton of raw emotion.  Pity they haven't played this since the Duke tour (i think)

-A reunion with the original lineup would be interesting and I would love to see it, but at this juncture I would rather just see the three get back together and tour

-Rutherford and Banks don't get enough credit.  A lot of my favorite songs are mainly written by them such as Land of Confusion, Follow You, follow Me, and Throwing it All Away (Rutherford) and Domino (Banks).  Wish I knew how the rest were composed. 


So those are a few random thoughts.  About to try to grab some of the Genesis biographies and further my obsession.  Probably going to tackle the solo albums soon

[Orbert]

The best biography of Genesis that I know of is I Know What I Like by Armando Gallo.  I read it back in the 80's, and at that time it covered everything up through Duke and Phil's first solo album.  I know it's been revised and extended at least once.  But no matter what, it is IMO the definitive history of the band.  Lots of great pictures (Gallo was known more for his photography than his writing), and plenty of history, too.

[Madman Shepherd]

Thanks for the info.  I was prepared to order it immediately but it must be out of print as there are no copies available for less than 50 bucks.  There is a kindle edition available for 10 so I might have to resort to that. 

[Zydar]

I have only read Chapter & Verse, and that is a great one.

[Cyclopssss]

The fact of the matter off course is, that Phil, against a gigantic amount of scepsis, ended up doing a fantastic job replacing Peter on lead vocals. Which must have been a daunting task, to say the least. Off course, bringing in a second drummer for the live gigs was a masterstroke.

[Madman Shepherd]

The fact of the matter off course is, that Phil, against a gigantic amount of scepsis, ended up doing a fantastic job replacing Peter on lead vocals. Which must have been a daunting task, to say the least. Off course, bringing in a second drummer for the live gigs was a masterstroke.

Nobody could criticize the band too much because it still was the original band....just minus a few members. 

[Orbert]

Mostly original.  Collins and Hackett joined on the third album, but Gabriel, Banks and Rutherford were there from the start.  Banks and Rutherford are the two that are on every Genesis album.

[Madman Shepherd]

Mostly original.  Collins and Hackett joined on the third album, but Gabriel, Banks and Rutherford were there from the start.  Banks and Rutherford are the two that are on every Genesis album.

Oh yeah.  Duh

Of course, the first album is almost a bit hard to count in the discography because it is so different and it is quite hard to find.  I actually just got my copy a few weeks ago and haven't really been inspired to listen to it much. 

Have they even played anything from it since the early 70s?

Have to admit, I haven't listened to Trespass that much either.  Long road trip tomorrow so I think I might need to finally give those two a more proper listen. 

[Orbert]

"The Knife" comes back once in a while.  The shortened version was around in the last 70's at least, maybe early 80's.

[Madman Shepherd]

All right.  I come to you for recommendations. 

I am looking into Genesis members solo projects.  I'll tell you what I've got so far and what I think and please tell me where to go next.

Peter Gabriel's debut - I was quite suprised.  I had heard Solsbury Hill and Sledgehammer so I just assumed he went way more pop oriented.  His debut was poppy but still relatively progressive and actually a nice progression from Genesis. 

Steve Hackett - I got the 5 Classic albums set and I have mixed emotions.  Very progressive in some ways but for my taste it gets a little too progressive at times. 

Phil Collins - Got his debut.  Yeah, way poppy.  Probably too poppy for me.  BTW, I love the pop oriented Genesis stuff but I don't know if I can do this

Mike + The Mechanics - He and Tony are my two favorite Genesis members and seem to write all my favorite songs.  Mike's band was again, too poppy for me.  I have his debut, Word of Mouth, and Living Years.

Tony Banks - Got his debut which is pretty awesome and Bankstatement which although very poppy, is actually quite enjoyable. 


So what should I seek out next?  I'm leaning towards Tony Banks and Peter Gabriel but I'm not sure how Gabriel's latter albums are.

Also, don't bother recommending the Tarzan soundtrack because I already have it and love it but now my wife is going to force me to watch the movie. 

[Dave_Manchester]

^^ For me, Peter Gabriel's 'Passion' album is the best album any of the individual members did, followed by his 4th solo album, sometimes called 'Security', but officially just Peter Gabriel 4. That latter has some of his best tracks like San Jacinto, Wallflower, Rhythm of the Heat, Lay Your Hands On Me and I Have The Touch. Passion was his soundtrack to Scorsese's film 'The Last Temptation of Christ' and uses a lot of Middle Eastern and African musical influences. Not everyone's cup of tea but I love it.

[KevShmev]

Yep, the "Passion" CD is great, but I'd save that till late in the game regarding PG's solo work.

I would dig into PG's solo work first, Madman.  Melt, Security and Up are the three clear standouts, IMO.

[Orbert]

I thought Phil's first two albums (Face Value, Hello, I Must Be Going) were both excellent.  Yeah, there was some poppy stuff, but also some pretty cool stuff that I don't know if you'd call it progressive, but it obviously wasn't aimed at commercial radio either.  I know a lot of people cream their shorts over "In the Air Tonight", and I like that song, too, but it certainly isn't the epitome of his solo output or anything.  And if you think about it really, it's nothing like a standard radio hit; it just happened to be in the right place at the right time.  My favorite Phil Collins solo album is Hot Night in Paris by The Phil Collins Big Band.  It is, however, an album of big band music, so not for everyone.

Mike + The Mechanics were always meant to be something like a Top 40 band.  They get slightly adventurous sometimes, but I've never heard anything to sway my opinion.  Good stuff, just not any more interesting than most commercial-grade stuff.

I would've thought Tony's solo output would be hands-down the best, but he really needs a good collaborator to bring out his best, and he's never really found one outside of Genesis.  His first solo album A Curious Feeling is probably his best, but has dated keyboard sounds that bother even me (and I tend to be very forgiving of dated keyboard sounds).  I wasn't that impressed by Bankstatement, an eponymous album from a band that's really just a Banks solo project.  Same with Strictly, Inc., although I like that one a bit better.  That's his collaboration with Jack Hues, the singer from Wang Chung.  My favorite Tony Banks solo output is his neo-classical stuff, although I know that's not for everyone.  Six and Seven are both great.  Fully orchestrated stuff with all the Banks cool chord changes and stuff.  A lot of it sounds like the instrumental parts of Genesis songs, which isn't surprising since Tony wrote nearly all of them.  But I think it sounds amazing.

Peter Gabriel's solo stuff is very interesting, and I've heard a lot of people talk about how proggy it is, but really, I don't hear it.  I have his first five, and they're good, but I don't find myself going to them very often.

Same with Steve Hackett.  I love his guitar work, but that's about it.  Most of the songs bore me, and I'm rarely impressed by the singers on his albums.  If he did a solo album of just guitar/instrumental stuff, I'd probably dig that.