Author Topic: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion  (Read 145698 times)

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Offline ZBomber

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #210 on: October 26, 2010, 02:26:09 PM »
I've got an odd question - is the post-Hackett era worth listening to?

YES

Duke, go listen to it now!

Offline ytserush

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #211 on: October 26, 2010, 06:14:15 PM »
Strangely, I like most of Invisible Touch despite the very dated production on a lot of it. I actually never owned this record until about 5 years ago.

I have to say that I hated most of it when it came out, but there are some good songs in there. The Brazillian is very underrated.

I like the self-titled album better though.


But then I very much prefer post-Gabriel Genesis by quite a large margin which I'm told could get be banned from the Internets.

Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #212 on: October 26, 2010, 08:09:50 PM »
I definitely appreciate Collins-era Genesis, but they're a totally different band than earlier Genesis.

Offline True Death of Life

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #213 on: October 26, 2010, 08:11:55 PM »
You can actually see (hear?) the evolution--it's pretty fascinating, really.

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #214 on: October 26, 2010, 08:50:49 PM »
Speaking of 80s Genesis, what do you guys think of Invisible Touch as a whole?


Eh.  Its got some good songs, but songs like "in Too Deep," "The Brazillian," "Anything She Does," and "Invisible Touch" can get annoying.  "Land of Confusion" and "Domino" are great.

As a whole I quite like it. The only song I'm not particularly fond of is Throwing It All Away

Land of Confusion is an amazing song

Offline ddtonfire

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #215 on: October 26, 2010, 10:39:46 PM »
What! The Brazalian was my favorite Genesis song for the longest time!

Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #216 on: October 27, 2010, 07:33:23 AM »
It was cool that they included an instrumental, the first one in a long time.

Offline Zydar

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #217 on: October 27, 2010, 07:41:17 AM »
Invisible Touch is probably my favourite song of their 80's pop period :(
Zydar is my new hero.  I just laughed so hard I nearly shat.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #218 on: October 27, 2010, 08:06:32 AM »
Invisible Touch is the weakest Genesis album of all.  Their debut when they were still in high school was better, and I think my son's third grade band concert CD is even better.  One time I dropped a wrench on the basement floor and it made a clattering sound that was somewhat rhythmic and kinda cool how it alternated between the two notes.  I wish I'd recorded it, because it was actually more musically interesting than Invisible Touch.

Okay, that made me :lol for real.  

You must really hate that album, eh?

Land of Confusion is an amazing song

True that.  I remember when that song came out.  I thought that chorus was the coolest thing ever at the time. :coolio

And like others, I dig "The Brazilian" like crazy, too.  Really, the only song I don't like on IT is "In Too Deep," which is way too wimpy (and not in a good way).  "Throwing It All Away" is pretty average, but I wouldn't say I dislike it.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #219 on: October 27, 2010, 11:14:21 AM »
I really don't like the fact that one of my favorite bands has an album that I really hate that much, so I'm listening to Invisible Touch again, with an ear towards finding the good, while trying to ignore that which bothers me.  I have every studio album, most of their live albums, and a bunch of boots.  I really do love this band.  But man... what the fuck happened to them later on?

I've gotten through "Land of Confusion" so far.  When I'm done, I will listen through everything a second time, then post a (hopefully) balanced review here.  I'm sure you guys can hardly wait.

Offline Zydar

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #220 on: October 27, 2010, 11:15:56 AM »
I'm on the edge of my seat.

Nah, I think it's great that you decided to give it another chance. Maybe something will finally click?
Zydar is my new hero.  I just laughed so hard I nearly shat.

Offline ZBomber

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #221 on: October 27, 2010, 11:21:34 AM »
I really don't like the fact that one of my favorite bands has an album that I really hate that much, so I'm listening to Invisible Touch again, with an ear towards finding the good, while trying to ignore that which bothers me.  I have every studio album, most of their live albums, and a bunch of boots.  I really do love this band.  But man... what the fuck happened to them later on?

I've gotten through "Land of Confusion" so far.  When I'm done, I will listen through everything a second time, then post a (hopefully) balanced review here.  I'm sure you guys can hardly wait.

Atleast they didn't release "Love Beach"  :lol

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #222 on: October 27, 2010, 11:27:48 AM »
I really don't like the fact that one of my favorite bands has an album that I really hate that much, so I'm listening to Invisible Touch again, with an ear towards finding the good, while trying to ignore that which bothers me.  I have every studio album, most of their live albums, and a bunch of boots.  I really do love this band.  But man... what the fuck happened to them later on?

I've gotten through "Land of Confusion" so far.  When I'm done, I will listen through everything a second time, then post a (hopefully) balanced review here.  I'm sure you guys can hardly wait.

I think I'll play it at work.  It's been a long time hearing this album even though I've had it on my I-Pod for a long time.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #223 on: October 27, 2010, 11:32:19 AM »
Amazingly, I don't hate Love Beach.  Sure, the cover is LOL silly, but it is what it is, an album of leftovers of leftovers released because Atlantic wanted another ELP album out there and ELP hadn't recorded anything new in a while.  I really like Works, Volume One, and there are some decent tracks on Works, Volume Two: The Leftovers.  But Love Beach was literally scraping the bottom of the barrel.  Still, "Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentlemen" isn't horrible.

Full disclosure: ELP was my favorite band at the time, and Love Beach helped change that.  But it was time to move on anyway.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #224 on: October 27, 2010, 04:09:46 PM »
Looking forward to your updated review, Orbert. :)

Also, I probably need to get around to rechecking out Duke.  I tried it many years ago, and it didn't do much for me, but a lot of fans seem to really like it, so it might be time to give it a few whirls.  Sadly, it was one I bought and then sold off in one of those "I need to sell the CDs I am not crazy about" moods I was in, so I no longer have it.  Damn it.

Offline ZBomber

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #225 on: October 27, 2010, 04:34:56 PM »
Looking forward to your updated review, Orbert. :)

Also, I probably need to get around to rechecking out Duke.  I tried it many years ago, and it didn't do much for me, but a lot of fans seem to really like it, so it might be time to give it a few whirls.  Sadly, it was one I bought and then sold off in one of those "I need to sell the CDs I am not crazy about" moods I was in, so I no longer have it.  Damn it.

Its one of my favorite albums from any artist at the moment. I've been listening to it multiples time a day this week  :biggrin:

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #226 on: October 27, 2010, 05:44:29 PM »
Also I don't care what Orbert says; No Reply At All is AWESOME.

DAT BASS

Mike Rutherford may be an inconsistent guitar/bass player, but his good songs are REALLY good

Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #227 on: October 27, 2010, 09:50:51 PM »
Also I don't care what Orbert says; No Reply At All is AWESOME.

Pretty much this.  Its a catchy, well constructed slice of poppy doo doo.

Offline Orbert

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Invisible Touch
« Reply #228 on: October 28, 2010, 10:59:53 PM »
Okay, I did it.  I listened to Invisible Touch all the way through twice in my car over the past two days.  What follows is a combination of my first impressions upon first hearing the album and listening to it in 1988, and my more recent attempts to understand why people actually like the album today.  In 1988, Genesis were one of my favorite bands due to their progressive albums in the 70's, and also how they'd managed to balance achieving popular appeal with appeasing their prog fanbase throughout the 80's.  Each album was more popular than its predecessor, and though they always kept one foot firmly in prog, the prog:pop ratio was shrinking.



"Invisible Touch" (the album and the song) opens with a snappy, up-tempo hook and the first word out of Phil's mouth is "Well..." and I am already disappointed.  You do not ever begin anything by saying "Well..." and expect people to take you seriously.  The live version of one of Genesis' coolest songs to date, "Turn It On Again," is incredible, nearly perfect.  The one thing, the one note, the one syllable, that keeps the live version from perfection is that Phil inexplicably chooses to weaken the first line by adding "Well..."  

I'm sorry, but the line is "All I need is a TV show" not "Well, all I need is a TV show (shrug)."

"Well, I've been waiting, waiting here so long..."  Right now, Phil might as well be singing "Look, we're a pop band now, so just deal with it, alright?"  What follows is a three-and-a-half-minute pop song about some girl he doesn't even know, but she's reached right in and grabbed ahold of his heart, as though she has some kind of... invisible touch!  Mercifully, the title track is the shortest on the album, and one of the shortest in the Genesis catalogue.  It repeats and fades, because that's what pop songs do, and the last thing you hear is falsetto background voices going "oh-oh-oh!"

Then things turn around with the dark, brooding "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight".  At nearly nine minutes, it is the second-longest track on the album, and features a long instrumental break.  The break itself is quite simple, a repeating rhythmic pattern with understated keyboard vignettes played over them, but it successfully builds up some tension, finally releasing in a vocal bridge, then the song returns for a final verse which feels a bit anticlimactic at that point, but which is pretty much the only way to finish the song.  The song ends with a repeat and fade.  So it's a longish song, but really more an extended "regular" song than anything prog.  But at this point, you'll take it, and overall it is a pretty cool song.

"Land of Confusion" grabs you from the top with its percussion and staccato hook in both the keyboards and guitars, and around this time you realize that everything you've heard sounds really, really good.  This song is their latest venture into social commentary, a new thing for Genesis (if not for Phil) about all the troubles in the world, but it manages to work in a half-tempo break where he held her tight all through the night, because that's what pop songs do.  At least the song has a proper ending.  And what was that hook, anyway, a guitar or a keyboard?

"In Too Deep" slows things down, and gives us another straightforward love song.  He loves her, she knows that, but he's scared.  Bleah.  Again, a great-sounding song, well crafted, and completely void of substance.  Nice keyboard patches.  A lot of 80's keyboards sound dated today; I think most of Tony Banks' sounds manage to avoid that.

"Anything She Does" opens Side Two the same way the title track opened Side One, with an uptempo hook and poppy electronic beat, then ups the ante by suddenly modulating up a step just as the vocals come in.  It's another short, poppy love song, well written, perfectly produced, and meaningless.  It doesn't really end so much as it simply stops, as though Hugh Padgham or some other objective party on the other side of the glass had the good sense to pull the plug.

Then, as with Side One, we go from the catchy opener to a longish tune.  "Domino" is the longest track on the album and is a suite of two songs, "Part 1 - In the Glow of the Night" and "Part 2 - The Last Domino".  With a couple of tempo changes and mood shifts, and a somewhat dark feel, it is the closest thing to prog on the album.  In 22 years, I've never figured out what the words are about, but at least they don't seem to be about some girl he loves but is currently having trouble relating to.

"Throwing It All Away" is another nice-sounding love song.  Honestly, there are only so many things that can be said about the love songs on this album.  There are four of them altogther, half the album by number.  They all sound nice, but don't exactly have much depth to them.  Phil's atypical harmonies make their only appearance on the album, during the verse rather than the chorus, which is an interesting choice.

"The Brazillian" finishes the album.  It's an instrumental, their first since "Duke's Travels" and first standalone instrumental since "After the Ordeal" well over a decade earlier.  This piece sounded a lot better cranked out in my car than I remember it sounding on our crummy stereo in 1988.  It was quite a revelation, hearing a number of little licks throughout that I never heard (or at least never noticed) before.  My opinion of this piece is a bit higher now than it used to be.  Still, it takes a while to get its refrain, and then can't seem to step away from it.

Closing Remarks

If I had to guess, I would say that this is Genesis' most popular album.  Every song is in straight 4/4 time.  Four of its eight songs are standard love songs.  Five of its eight songs received radio play that I know of.  Six of the eight songs are in standard verse-verse-break-verse format.  Even the two longer tracks aren't really very prog.  "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" never wavers in mood or tempo, and is really just a long pop song; and "Domino" has some changes, but no real instrumental acrobatics to speak of.  There are almost no solos in any songs.

It's not that "prog = good" and "pop = bad."  It's that popular songs by definition have much wider appeal, and that generally means taking fewer risks, sticking to a formula.  Just look at the structure of the songs, even the structure of the album itself in terms of song order and arrangement.  Genesis insist that it was always their goal to become a popular band; they just didn't figure out how for a while.  As the band shrunk and their sound streamlined, it seems the immense talent still in the band became concentrated, and they cranked out some good solid pop.

I do understand why people like this album.  It sounds fantastic.  The songs are brilliantly crafted, and the playing is superb.  Banks, Rutherford, and Collins are excellent musicians and songwriters, so when they put their minds to creating popular music, they succeed, and it's really good popular music.  It may be cynical, but I believe that "The Brazilian" was included as an attempt to please the disenchanted prog fans, but placed last to allow the hordes of pop fans the option of skipping it.

Overall, I still can't say I like this album.  I tend not to like things that are specifically and obviously created to appeal to me.  I'm aware of the manipulation and resent it, causing me to dislike it even as I determine that it's very good.  And this is a good album; this is actually a great album.  But it's literally painful for me to listen to, because I know what these guys are capable of.  I saw them live, playing incredible, complex pieces of music in real time.  Mike is an incredible bassist and underrated guitarist; Tony is known for his lightning-fast 16th-note runs and complex chord shifts and key changes; Phil used to play jazzfusion with Brand X.  And here they are, playing pop songs in 4/4 time.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #229 on: October 28, 2010, 11:11:59 PM »
Interesting review.  Heh.  Props for giving it a few more chances.  I see what you mean about the band being much more capable of what they showed on this album, but for what it is - a pop rock record - it is good.  I can't say it is as good as most of their albums in the 70s, or even the self-titled record, which is the closest thing to it from a stylistic standpoint, but I still like it.  "Land of Confusion" will always be a nostalgic favorite, "The Brazilian" is awesome to hurt up really loud, and I was always greatly amused by the video for the title track, where Phil Collins pretty much acted like a big goofball.

Say what you want about Collins and the pop fluff he has done over the years, but for a serious musician with great chops, he managed to take advantage of the 80s video era by being one of the more entertaining musicians in videos (along with David Lee Roth).

Offline ytserush

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #230 on: October 31, 2010, 11:51:37 PM »
Amazingly, I don't hate Love Beach.  Sure, the cover is LOL silly, but it is what it is, an album of leftovers of leftovers released because Atlantic wanted another ELP album out there and ELP hadn't recorded anything new in a while.  I really like Works, Volume One, and there are some decent tracks on Works, Volume Two: The Leftovers.  But Love Beach was literally scraping the bottom of the barrel.  Still, "Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentlemen" isn't horrible.

Full disclosure: ELP was my favorite band at the time, and Love Beach helped change that.  But it was time to move on anyway.

This should probably go in an ELP thread, but Love Beach is a masterpiece when compared with In The Hot Seat. The album cover adds much to its legendary status, but In The Hot Seat is so bad that nobody even bothers to talk about it.

If pressed, I would probably have to say that I prefer ELP over Yes and Genesis even to this day.

I also have to say that Duke and Abacab are likely my two favorite studio albums (Seconds Out and Three Sides Live are my favorite live albums).


As far as Invisible Touch goes, I refused to own it for many of the reason Orbert mentioned in his fine review. In time though, despite the obviously dated production, it holds up a better than a lot of the music that came from that period. While I don't consider it a Genesis favorite by any means (It's better than what came after in 1992...I can't for the life of me remember it as I don't own it. I'd put Calling All Stations ahead of it too probably)

Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #231 on: November 01, 2010, 08:02:26 AM »
I held off buying We Can't Dance for a while, because Invisible Touch was so bad.  I remember standing in a record store looking at it, and on the back cover were listed 12 songs, and to me that meant another batch of short, radio-friendly tunes.  I eventually picked it up, because I had every Genesis album to date; how could I not complete my collection?

I was pleasantly surprised when I finally listened to it.  I'd forgotten the "CD factor" - that 12 songs meant an average song length of 6 minutes, not four, so factor in the radio-friendly garbage, and there were a couple of good album tracks buried in there.  Yeah, it's got a bunch of those annoying, poppy songs, but at least they broke out a bit.  "Driving the Last Spike" was their last great story-song, the history of British Rail.  "Dreaming While You Sleep" is understandably disliked by many, but I think it's brilliant.  A study in guilt and human nature, something that could happen to anyone, and if you don't think it could happen to you, just hope you're never in a position to find out what you would do in that situation.  And "Fading Lights" despite its straightforward structure at least gives us a longer track with an extended instrumental break, and it's a beautiful song, a great closer.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #232 on: November 01, 2010, 08:16:14 AM »
I held off getting We Can't Dance for a long time, too, basically because "I Can't Dance" is one of the biggest piece of shit songs ever created, but "Driving the Last Spike" and "Fading Lights" more than made the eventual purchase worthwhile. 

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #233 on: November 01, 2010, 08:23:10 AM »
Driving The Last Spike itself makes it worth buying.
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Offline Zydar

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #234 on: November 01, 2010, 08:24:19 AM »
No Son Of Mine is pretty awesome too (albeit a poppy song). I get goosebumps when that chorus comes.
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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #235 on: November 01, 2010, 08:28:09 AM »
Meh. I'm not a Collins-era fan at all. Almost all pop doesn't appeal to me for some reason.

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #236 on: November 01, 2010, 12:21:52 PM »
Meh. I'm not a Collins-era fan at all. Almost all pop doesn't appeal to me for some reason.

It's not all 'pop'.

In fact quite a bit of it is prog infused

Offline ZBomber

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #237 on: November 01, 2010, 12:53:01 PM »
Meh. I'm not a Collins-era fan at all. Almost all pop doesn't appeal to me for some reason.

DUKE.

DUKE.


LISTEN TO DUKE.

Offline Mladen

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #238 on: November 01, 2010, 01:04:35 PM »
I need to give the chance to later albums, especially Duke. I read some great reviews about it...

Offline toro

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #239 on: November 01, 2010, 01:26:03 PM »
Meh. I'm not a Collins-era fan at all. Almost all pop doesn't appeal to me for some reason.
It's funny how most of the songs sound nothing like pop.
I imagined the story to go more like this.

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Offline ytserush

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #240 on: November 02, 2010, 05:13:51 PM »
I held off buying We Can't Dance for a while, because Invisible Touch was so bad.  I remember standing in a record store looking at it, and on the back cover were listed 12 songs, and to me that meant another batch of short, radio-friendly tunes.  I eventually picked it up, because I had every Genesis album to date; how could I not complete my collection?

I was pleasantly surprised when I finally listened to it.  I'd forgotten the "CD factor" - that 12 songs meant an average song length of 6 minutes, not four, so factor in the radio-friendly garbage, and there were a couple of good album tracks buried in there.  Yeah, it's got a bunch of those annoying, poppy songs, but at least they broke out a bit.  "Driving the Last Spike" was their last great story-song, the history of British Rail.  "Dreaming While You Sleep" is understandably disliked by many, but I think it's brilliant.  A study in guilt and human nature, something that could happen to anyone, and if you don't think it could happen to you, just hope you're never in a position to find out what you would do in that situation.  And "Fading Lights" despite its straightforward structure at least gives us a longer track with an extended instrumental break, and it's a beautiful song, a great closer.

I've still held off.  At the time, I thought that the self-titled album was the last Genesis album I would ever enjoy and a lot of the time that still holds true, but there are times that I can enjoy what came after. I seem to have more tolerance for both Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance because a lot of the music that was released during that time just doesn't hold up.

 I've got "Fading Lights" on Live: The Way We Walk Volume 2 The Longs and it's definately a highlight. and I've always thought "Driving The Last Spike" was pretty good when I heard it.

Again, it seems to be something that seems to have held up over time and I suppose I'll look into getting it at some point.


Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #241 on: November 02, 2010, 08:44:58 PM »
Meh. I'm not a Collins-era fan at all. Almost all pop doesn't appeal to me for some reason.

DUKE.

DUKE.


LISTEN TO DUKE.
Have before. It's okay.

Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #242 on: November 02, 2010, 08:45:49 PM »
Meh. I'm not a Collins-era fan at all. Almost all pop doesn't appeal to me for some reason.
It's funny how most of the songs sound nothing like pop.
Most of it does to me.

Offline toro

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #243 on: November 02, 2010, 09:12:55 PM »
Meh. I'm not a Collins-era fan at all. Almost all pop doesn't appeal to me for some reason.
It's funny how most of the songs sound nothing like pop.
Most of it does to me.
Beside the singles, no, not really.
Edit: I mean, I can see your point, but It just doesn't strtike me as pop, it's quite different I still find Phil Collins era progressive at least ala "The Alan Parsons Project".
I imagined the story to go more like this.

I was sitting a traffic light blaring Space Dye Vest and next to me in another car was Kevin Moore. And I'll never be open again.

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Re: Genesis Appreciation/Discussion
« Reply #244 on: November 02, 2010, 09:17:24 PM »
Meh. I'm not a Collins-era fan at all. Almost all pop doesn't appeal to me for some reason.

DUKE.

DUKE.


LISTEN TO DUKE.
Have before. It's okay.

Listen to it again with an open mind. Some beautiful compositions on that record, and you shouldn't be missing out on it just because its not a Gabriel led album.