Author Topic: The Savatage Thread  (Read 101538 times)

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Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #630 on: June 01, 2017, 10:44:57 AM »
I really liked Wake Of Magellan from the beginning. A good combination of rockers and softer songs and although the story is a bit all over the place the flow of the songs is really good.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #631 on: June 01, 2017, 11:27:48 AM »
The Wake of Magellan is a fantastic album!
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Offline Samsara

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #632 on: June 01, 2017, 12:00:06 PM »
I really dug listening to it this morning.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #633 on: June 01, 2017, 04:30:19 PM »
The Wake of Magellan, along with Handful of Rain, was one of the Savatage albums that took the longest time to click with me.  While I liked it very much on first listen, the warmer guitar tone and the overall more guitar driven vibe of the record was a bit of a disappointment to me, especially since I loved the colder, more symphonic sound of Dead Winter Dead so much.  Also, other then "Morning Sun" and "The Storm", not many of the tracks on the album really stood out to me on first listen.  It wasn't until sometime later when I heard someone talking about how insanely good the title track was that I decided to go back and give it a closer listen, and when I did the record finally connected with me.  In addition to "The Wake of Magellan" (which is now one of my top 5 Sava-tracks), so many other songs on the album have become true classics for me, especially "Turns to Me", "Blackjack Guillotine" and "Paragons of Innocence", and the record as a whole ranks along side Dead Winter Dead and Streets in my top 3 Savatage albums.  In fact, these days it has pretty much passed up Streets and is rivaling Dead Winter Dead for the title of my favorite Savatage album of them all. 

With Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan, Savatage had finally refined the Symphonic Broadway Metal style they had pioneered on Hall of the Mountain King and Gutter Ballet down to a science.  The chemistry and sound the band achieved during the 1995-1999 era was just so incredibly majestic and powerful, it is a damn shame that era of the band didn't last a bit longer.  Poets and Madmen is still a fantastic record, but I definitely have come to feel that the band lost something special when Zak and Al left (though Al still performed on P&M).  The TSO albums also retained much of what had made that period of the band so grandiose and epic, but with the sole exception of Beethoven's Last Night, I felt that ethereal special something had largely become a shadow of its former self on the TSO records.

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #634 on: June 01, 2017, 04:33:35 PM »
Yeah, I agree DWD and Magellan were real growers but it obviously paid off.  Love the atmosphere in both, incredible albums.

I really like the instrumental, "The Ocean" and wanted it to be longer.  Such a cool tune.

Just brilliant.  It's perfect but I wish they did something more with it also.
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Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #635 on: June 01, 2017, 05:20:46 PM »
I think the Dark Master might have a Savatage signal, like the bat signal, flash in the sky near his home whenever this thread is updated.

Nobody knows more about Savatage than DM, but you only see him around the rare cases this thread is updated lol.

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #636 on: June 01, 2017, 06:29:32 PM »
I think the Dark Master might have a Savatage signal, like the bat signal, flash in the sky near his home whenever this thread is updated.

I'll send out the signal!


would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #637 on: June 01, 2017, 06:34:05 PM »
 :metal

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #638 on: June 01, 2017, 07:21:50 PM »
I think the Dark Master might have a Savatage signal, like the bat signal, flash in the sky near his home whenever this thread is updated.

I'll send out the signal!




Who the fuck is this?
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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #639 on: June 01, 2017, 07:24:33 PM »
Um..Jon Oliva. ;D
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #640 on: June 01, 2017, 07:26:04 PM »
Um..Jon Oliva. ;D

oh, I didn't recognise him, he must have had a bit too much sun there.
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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #641 on: June 01, 2017, 07:30:07 PM »
I know you've heard my Jon Oliva/Posessed Barney story before.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #642 on: June 01, 2017, 07:31:00 PM »
I know you've heard my Jon Oliva/Posessed Barney story before.

Not ringing a bell, but it sounds like a riot.
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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #643 on: June 01, 2017, 07:39:36 PM »
I've told it so many times, if you google image Posessed Barney and click on that pic, it takes you right to DTF!!!

Goes back to when I saw Savatage open for Dio/Megadeth in 1987. Jon Oliva had this long purple robe on. He stalked the stage screaming non stop. I've always said he looked like a possessed Barney!
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #644 on: June 01, 2017, 07:42:30 PM »
He must have been so drugged fucked to wear a long purple robe on stage!!
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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #645 on: June 01, 2017, 07:44:16 PM »
It was bad. I don't want to depreciate in the Savatage thread, but I've commented before about it many times.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #646 on: June 01, 2017, 08:22:11 PM »
I think the Dark Master might have a Savatage signal, like the bat signal, flash in the sky near his home whenever this thread is updated.

Nobody knows more about Savatage than DM, but you only see him around the rare cases this thread is updated lol.

To be honest, I felt so drained after completing the Savatage discography thread, I really didn't have the energy to post on DTF as frequently as I did in the past.  That, plus my appendicitis and the fact that there were other projects in my life that I had neglected while writing that thread kind of drew me away from DTF for a while.

Of course, I continued to lurk here (and on Samsara's Breakdown Room froums), and considering my love for the band, any time I saw something posted about Savatage, I could not prevent myself from responding.  I have seen some threads pop up here in the past month or so on which I have felt compelled to comment, so I may be a bit more active here then I have been in the past year or so.
Goes back to when I saw Savatage open for Dio/Megadeth in 1987. Jon Oliva had this long purple robe on. He stalked the stage screaming non stop. I've always said he looked like a possessed Barney!

He must have been so drugged fucked to wear a long purple robe on stage!!

Jon has often talked about how while touring with Dio and Megadeth he and Dave Mustaine spent a bit too much time hanging out together, which kind of fed into their bad habits (read: drugs and booze), which most likely affected his performances back in the day.  I've seen a lot of bootleg Savatage footage from all periods of the band, and it is pretty clear that on the Hall of the Mountain King tour, Jon was in a less then stellar state of health.  Apparently, the substance abuse reached such heights that Atlantic actually paid for Jon's rehab between Hall of the Mountain King and Gutter Ballet, on the understanding that if he did not clean up his act, Savatage would be dropped from the label. 

Jon did cheat a bit (he convinced Criss and Paul to sneak some weed into the rehab center) but he did clean up considerably.  He was noticeably healthier (and much, much slimmer) during the Gutter Ballet and Streets period then he had been before, but the combined trauma of losing his voice (which started to go even on the later parts of the Gutter Ballet tour), the death of Criss and all the changes Savatage endured between 1991 and 1995 took their toll on his health.  While I believe he stayed off, or at least severely limited, his use of hard drugs during that period, he started drinking heavily again between Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain and had visibly (re)gained much weight on the Handful of Rain tour. 

I think from that point on until relatively recently (2011-2015 timeframe), Jon's health was in a downward spiral due to depression mounting from the loss of Criss and all the issues Savatage had endured.  It wasn't until the death of Matt LaPorte that he started taking his health a bit more seriously again, a development that was given further impetus by Savatage reunion at Wacken.  For his sake, if not for the sake of all his fans, I hope Jon continues to take better care of himself.  With the loss of Paul, not to mention all the other celebrity deaths that have occurred over the past few years, I'm not ready to see the Mountain King pass away just yet.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 11:09:50 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline Mister Gold

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #647 on: June 01, 2017, 09:52:01 PM »
It's great to see you, Dark Master! :tup

And I agree, I really hope Jon keeps taking care of himself. I hate that these sorts of tragedies keep happening to him.
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Offline bl5150

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #648 on: June 01, 2017, 10:23:14 PM »
Ditto the above re Jon -   I dropped off a bit in the later years and haven't really listened to TSO much but the HoTMK - Edge of Thorns era of Savatage is one of my favourites of any band.

I can't say that too many of the celebrity deaths in recent times have touched me a great deal in a personal sense as very few have been artists that had any impact on me.  Criss Oliva certainly did back in the day but , unlike these days , it took me some time to find out via magazines etc.......so it wasn't quite as "real" months later.  I do wonder from time to time how awesome a follow up to Edge of Thorns could've been with Criss.

Paul O'Neill is a loss that I feel for sure but a little different to Criss.  He was really a member of the band but (hopefully this comes across right) I don't feel quite as close to him as the others ..... in blunt terms he was just a name on the album sleeve who wrote and produced some of my favourite songs but I don't think I had seen a photo of him until recent years.

Anyway...........stay strong Jon  :metal
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 10:36:14 PM by bl5150 »
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Offline sfam2112

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #649 on: June 01, 2017, 10:36:18 PM »
On a more positive note, I have recently re-discovered the greatness of Wake of Magellan. I bought it when it came out, didn't like it, got rid of it. Now almost 20 years later, I'm revisiting it and I'm really enjoying it.  :metal

I love that album. I don't remember it taking too long to click with me. I got it for Christmas in 2001. It's probably my favorite post-Criss album. Definitely prefer it to Dead Winter Dead.
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Offline bl5150

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #650 on: June 01, 2017, 10:37:06 PM »
On a more positive note, I have recently re-discovered the greatness of Wake of Magellan. I bought it when it came out, didn't like it, got rid of it. Now almost 20 years later, I'm revisiting it and I'm really enjoying it.  :metal

I love that album. I don't remember it taking too long to click with me. I got it for Christmas in 2001. It's probably my favorite post-Criss album. Definitely prefer it to Dead Winter Dead.

As do I.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #651 on: June 01, 2017, 11:30:44 PM »
Count me in for liking Magellan more than DWD, a lot more come to think of it.

And yeah, hopefully Jon keeps the healthy living up, it's good to see.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #652 on: June 02, 2017, 05:38:29 AM »
I think the Dark Master might have a Savatage signal, like the bat signal, flash in the sky near his home whenever this thread is updated.

Nobody knows more about Savatage than DM, but you only see him around the rare cases this thread is updated lol.

I come here for DM's insight and knowledge.

Offline T-ski

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #653 on: June 02, 2017, 08:05:50 AM »
Wake Of Magellan is easily my favorite post-Criss album.
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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #654 on: June 05, 2017, 05:35:43 AM »
Wake Of Magellan is easily my favorite post-Criss album.

Hmm, it's either that or Handful of Rain. Tough call.

Offline Samsara

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #655 on: June 05, 2017, 09:19:07 AM »
It's weird with Savs...they are a band I have to be in the mood for. And I find myself not wanting to listen to Oliva-fronted Savatage and Stevens-fronted Savatage together. It's either one or the other, depending on mood. They are just so different to my ears that it has to be mood driven. I just don't put on their albums and kick back. I have to wait for the mood to strike, and even then, figure out which one I prefer that day.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #656 on: June 06, 2017, 03:44:24 PM »
It's weird with Savs...they are a band I have to be in the mood for. And I find myself not wanting to listen to Oliva-fronted Savatage and Stevens-fronted Savatage together. It's either one or the other, depending on mood. They are just so different to my ears that it has to be mood driven. I just don't put on their albums and kick back. I have to wait for the mood to strike, and even then, figure out which one I prefer that day.

I can understand that.  Savatage went through such a dramatic evolution in their sound that different periods of their discography sound as if they were made by completely different bands.  To the uninitiated, it would be completely understandable to think that records like Sirens or The Dungeons Are Calling were not made by the same guys who crafted Dead Winter Dead or The Wake of Magellan.  When I am in the mood for Edge of Thorns, I am far more likely to have the desire to listen to any given TSO album then, say, Power of the Night.

Of course, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for that.  In a very real sense, the band that made Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan was not the same band that made Sirens or The Dungeons Are Calling.  Savatage's lineup changed just as frequently as their musical style, and the constantly rotating membership doubtlessly had a major hand in their creative direction.  Even the role of Jon Oliva, the only guy to be present in every incarnation of the band, was in a constant state of flux throughout the 20 years of Savatage's history, as he transitioned from being a front-man to a keyboardist/composer/co-producer.

Perhaps because of all this, I don't really divide Savatage's career based on who was in the band at any given time, even less so on who was singing on what particular record.  Two of the "Zak albums" (Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan) have tracks with Jon on lead vocals.  Jon sang on all of Poets and Madmen but half the record was originally written for Zak's voice, and the music as a whole has more in common with the Zak era of the band then the earlier Oliva fronted period of Savatage.  Much of Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain were written for Jon's voice, but both albums were sung entirely by Zak.  The later albums from the Jon Oliva era, like Streets and Gutter ballet arguably show stronger musical continuity with the rock opera style of the Zak era then with the classic metal style of the earlier Oliva-fronted albums.  And sometimes the band credited on an album is not who actually played on that album, as is the case with Handful of Rain.

For me personally, I think Savatage's career is better defined by who wrote which particular records rather then who performed on them.  In that case, the Savatage discography can be divided rather neatly into three different eras:

The Jon Oliva/Criss Oliva period- Sirens, The Dungeons Are Calling, Power of the Night and Fight for the Rock.  All of these records are more or less classic 80's style metal albums, though Fight for the Rock does flirt a bit with a more mainstream direction.

The Jon Oliva/Criss Oliva/Paul O'Neill period- Hall of the Mountain King, Gutter Ballet, Streets and Edge of Thorns.  Over the course of these four records, Savatage transformed itself by incorporating progressive, classical and Broadway elements into their music, while still retaining much 80's metal bite in their sound, mostly thanks to Criss Oliva's excellent riffs and solos.

The Jon Oliva/Paul O'Neill period- Handful of Rain, Dead Winter Dead, The Wake of Magellan and Poets and Madmen.  With Criss gone, the songwriting evolved to become almost completely dominated by the vocal and orchestral elements of Savatage.  While the classic metal element of the band is still present here, the guitar, bass and drums largely serve to add some metal "omph" to the music rather then being the foundation of the songwriting itself, as had been the case in the past.

Admittedly, this periodization is not perfect.  It can be argued that Hall of the Mountain King has more in common with the classic metal albums that preceded it then with records like Streets or Edge of Thorns, albums that strongly foreshadow the direction of later era Savatage, as well as TSO.  Likewise Poets and Madmen is noticeably more guitar driven then the albums that had immediately come before, largely thanks to Chris Caffery's heavy involvement in the songwriting, and combined with Jon's return as lead vocalist, can be reasonably considered a return to the Gutter Ballet and Streets period of the band.  But by and large, I feel the overall sound of Savatage was more strongly defined in any given period by the songwriting, rather then by the lineup.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 06:16:08 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #657 on: June 06, 2017, 03:47:36 PM »
Never saw their discography that way... but your division makes sense!
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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #658 on: June 06, 2017, 03:53:19 PM »
Dark Master..always appreciated!


@JJ...the signal still works!!! :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #659 on: June 06, 2017, 04:15:08 PM »
Dark Master..always appreciated!


@JJ...the signal still works!!! :lol

It's like when you're trying to lure your cat out from under the bed by bribing them with tuna and catnip!  :P

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #660 on: June 06, 2017, 04:19:02 PM »
 :lol

 :metal
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #661 on: June 07, 2017, 05:44:07 AM »
Whenever I see DM's posts, I kick back and relax to enjoy it.  :biggrin:
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 05:53:47 AM by Prog Snob »

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #662 on: June 07, 2017, 05:49:45 AM »
I see his posts, and then I'm like, 'Fuck it, I'll be late for work again but I don't even care!'
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Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #663 on: June 07, 2017, 02:13:19 PM »
I don't think there is any doubt that DM knows more about Savatage than any actual band member knows about the band.

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #664 on: June 07, 2017, 02:25:14 PM »
DM's posts on the subjects are must reads and I don't even like Savatage! :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol