Author Topic: The Savatage Thread  (Read 102303 times)

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Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #700 on: October 19, 2017, 10:00:03 PM »
His playing was just pure emotion and heart on every single damn thing he did.  There was just nothing robotic about him and his playing and even the most trained and technically brilliant guitarist was still no match for the pure rawness, feel and natural ability this guy had.  The guitar was just a part of him and he connected to it like not many have before.
That's part of what made transcribing his solos a challenge.  Compared to someone like JP, who has a very composed, pre-planned approach, it makes it difficult in a different kind of way.  Criss' playing was more spontaneous, and he never played a solo exactly the same way twice.

Throughout the course of this project, it's been fun to chart his evolution as a player.  From the Sirens/Dungeons era (extra challenging to transcribe due to production) where his lead playing was less refined, to the Hall/Gutter era where he really solidified his voice.  He was constantly improving with each album, all the way up to Edge of Thorns.  While not my favorite album, I think it's the peak of his playing, he was really unleashed on EoT.  It's also been cool to pick up on his tendencies and patterns/chords he liked to use.

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #701 on: October 20, 2017, 06:04:40 AM »
His playing was just pure emotion and heart on every single damn thing he did.  There was just nothing robotic about him and his playing and even the most trained and technically brilliant guitarist was still no match for the pure rawness, feel and natural ability this guy had.  The guitar was just a part of him and he connected to it like not many have before.

Whenever someone bangs on (and it happens a lot on this forum) about how shred guitar, or fast lead runs, or weedly meedly, or noodling, (or whatever derisive term they want to use) has no soul and is just *shudder* robotic, I always think that they must have never heard Criss play. I can't believe anyone could listen to that and not hear the joy, sorrow, aggression, and inspiration that poured out at every moment. Hell, you could say that about his riffs even. The first time I heard 24 Hours Ago, I was floored at the ingenuity of the riff...tired of hearing the same ol' song, indeed.
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #702 on: October 20, 2017, 06:07:44 AM »
On a related note, I can't help but still be bummed that Savatage doesn't fully reunite and go out on tour. I get it -- financially it wouldn't work in the U.S., and of course, TSO is mostly Savatage anyway. But, all that said, it is still a disappointment. Looking at that list above of Savatage records, DAMN. There are so many good songs that just don't get played any longer.

I mean, festivals...the festival scene could be an option if Jon wanted to do it. You play the big European ones, and then get the headliner slot at ProgPower. Boom. That's all. you record it for release, etc. I mean, obviously, I'm just a fan and being selfish with what I'd like him to do. But all those great songs...just not being played. It still irks me.

I believe Jon Oliva just doesn't want that kind of life anymore. It was probably in this thread pages ago that I read an interview, it must have been of late 2015 'cause Lemmy was still alive, where he said "God bless Lemmy but I don't want to do like him, touring at 70", and he definitively doesn't care for small venues in front of 500 / 1000 people.

Sure, what you said makes sense, just do the big festival, but probably he's more oriented to the very special and very rare super concert, Wacken with TSO was one, maybe if he gets an offer to play in a super special venue like an old arena or something, he may go for it, but I don't think he cares anymore for even a big festivals short run.
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Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #703 on: October 21, 2017, 08:17:10 PM »
I just finished transcribing Chance.  This and Morphine Child are the most elaborate transcriptions (as far as number of tracks) in the bunch.

Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #704 on: October 23, 2017, 08:35:47 AM »
Finished transcribing Tonight He Grins Again.  In addition to all the guitar parts, I also did the piano and strings.

Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #705 on: October 25, 2017, 12:28:37 PM »
Two more songs done: You're Alive and Sammy And Tex.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #706 on: October 26, 2017, 11:40:55 AM »
On a related note, I can't help but still be bummed that Savatage doesn't fully reunite and go out on tour. I get it -- financially it wouldn't work in the U.S., and of course, TSO is mostly Savatage anyway. But, all that said, it is still a disappointment. Looking at that list above of Savatage records, DAMN. There are so many good songs that just don't get played any longer.

I mean, festivals...the festival scene could be an option if Jon wanted to do it. You play the big European ones, and then get the headliner slot at ProgPower. Boom. That's all. you record it for release, etc. I mean, obviously, I'm just a fan and being selfish with what I'd like him to do. But all those great songs...just not being played. It still irks me.

I believe Jon Oliva just doesn't want that kind of life anymore. It was probably in this thread pages ago that I read an interview, it must have been of late 2015 'cause Lemmy was still alive, where he said "God bless Lemmy but I don't want to do like him, touring at 70", and he definitively doesn't care for small venues in front of 500 / 1000 people.

Sure, what you said makes sense, just do the big festival, but probably he's more oriented to the very special and very rare super concert, Wacken with TSO was one, maybe if he gets an offer to play in a super special venue like an old arena or something, he may go for it, but I don't think he cares anymore for even a big festivals short run.

I think it's a combination of Jon's dislike of heavy touring, and just the fact that with TSO being such a big commitment, it's a bit of a pain in the ass to get all the Savatage guys together and do something not-TSO.  Paul once said that the real thing preventing Savatage from recording and touring was a lack of enough time in the year.  Jon only writes and records for TSO; Caffery, Pitrelli, Middleton and Plate only record and tour with TSO.  The only time all of them are together is in the studio.  When TSO is out on tour, that is when Jon works on a lot of his solo stuff, and when Jon is writing for TSO is when the other guys do a lot of their side projects (which themselves are pretty rare; Chris Caffery had a 7 year break between solo albums due to his TSO commitments, and the other guys are not very active outside of TSO).  Jon has said that in order for Savatage to do even one album/tour cycle would require shutting down TSO for a whole year which, obviously, none of them want.

Now, I do think we may continue to see Savatage becoming a bigger part of the TSO show.  They have (slowly) been bringing more Savatage songs into the TSO setlists over the past several years, and with Zak now part of the TSO touring band, I imagine that trend will continue.  Wacholz also mentioned a "Savatage tour" in 2018 in a recent interview: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/community_feed/savatage_set_to_reunite_next_year.html.  What's interesting is that he explicitly states that he will not be a part of it because they already have Jeff Plate, which implies that it would be the Dead Winter Dead/ Wake of Magellan line-up.  I'm not sure what that could mean yet, if they are simply planing a TSO tour with a Savatage set (like the Wacken show) or if Jon and the Savatage guys are actualy going to take a break from TSO for a year to do a proper Savatage show (which is highly unlikely, IMO.   If I were a betting man, I'd place my money on the first option.)  Of course, Wacholz could just be wrong, since he hasn't been part of the Savatage family for over 20 years at this point.  That being said, it goes without saying that I hope there is at least a kernel of truth to the possibility that there may be some sort of Savatage event planned for 2018.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #707 on: October 26, 2017, 11:59:48 AM »
I agree as well! I had my chance to see Savatage, back in 2001 - it was a rather unlucky edition of a festival, indoors in June, so I didn't know them and I basically skipped 90% of their set preferring to stay outside.

I think it makes sense for them to have the Savatage legacy continuing through TSO, I remember always from an interview Jon saying something about one of the new singers of TSO being the new blood that would carry on the legacy once him and Paul (  :'( ) would be gone.
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Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #708 on: October 30, 2017, 10:43:21 AM »
Got a couple more songs transcribed: Agony And Ecstasy and Awaken.

Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #709 on: October 31, 2017, 09:52:32 AM »
I put this medley together for the Wake of Magellan album:

https://youtu.be/Ge_g8TOd_x4

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #710 on: November 03, 2017, 05:51:36 AM »
I can't find a TSO thread so I'll just post this here.

It's the first Trans-Siberian Orchestra Christmas without Paul O'Neill.

:(

Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #711 on: November 04, 2017, 03:19:38 PM »
3 more songs done for the tab book: Visions (from The Dungeons Are Calling), This Is The Time (1990), and Man In The Mirror!

Edit: the Poets & Madmen album is now complete!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 02:16:02 PM by DT89 »

Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #712 on: November 07, 2017, 08:56:13 AM »
My medley for the Hall of the Mountain King album:

https://youtu.be/j3EWfY7Oz2c

Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #713 on: November 07, 2017, 05:00:10 PM »
Great job!

Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #714 on: November 14, 2017, 06:51:08 AM »
Here's my Poets & Madmen medley: https://youtu.be/xsjyWS2P84w

Also finished a few more transcriptions: Warriors, Washed Out, Temptation Revelation, Silk And Steel, and Memory

Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #715 on: November 21, 2017, 09:50:37 AM »
Finished the Dead Winter Dead album last week, so here's my medley for it!

https://youtu.be/bpx5nQH_zSk

Also finished the Handful of Rain album this morning.

Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #716 on: November 28, 2017, 08:54:14 AM »
Handful of Rain medley: https://youtu.be/OkAKjqQ51EU

Also, If I Go Away and Somewhere In time are complete.

Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #717 on: December 05, 2017, 09:13:24 AM »
Streets album is now complete, here's the medley: https://youtu.be/BveYpDJbcG8

Also did some tone-matching with my Axe-Fx for this video, I think I got pretty close!

Offline Mark Levinson Jr.

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #718 on: December 05, 2017, 10:37:47 AM »
I put this medley together for the Wake of Magellan album:

https://youtu.be/Ge_g8TOd_x4

You got me thinking.... can you imagine Wake if Chris was in the band? For me, it's hard to imagine that album being any better, but it makes you wonder. I mean, what if Dead Winter Dead or Wake got big, like Moving Pictures or something? ... and Savatage was the big draw that TSO is now. OK, now I'm dreaming!

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #719 on: December 05, 2017, 12:29:15 PM »
The bitter irony is that the song that made TSO big, Christmas Eve / Sarajevo, actually was on Dead Winter Dead.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #720 on: December 12, 2017, 04:47:46 AM »
I listened to HOR for the first time in a long time, and honestly forgot how good it was.  brilliant, underrated album.
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Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #721 on: December 12, 2017, 10:14:41 AM »
My Edge Of Thorns medley: https://youtu.be/eoCMzNV1KTc

And here's the updated list of all 131 completed songs for my transcription project:

Sirens: Sirens, Rage, Twisted Little Sister, Living For The Night, Scream Murder
The Dungeons Are Calling (full album)
Power Of The Night (full album)
Fight For The Rock (full album)
Hall Of The Mountain King (full album)
Gutter Ballet (full album)
Streets (full album)
Edge Of Thorns (full album + Forever After and Shotgun Innocence)
Handful Of Rain (full album)
Dead Winter Dead (full album)
Ghost In The Ruins: Post Script
The Wake Of Magellan (full album)
Poets & Madmen (full album)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 10:35:54 PM by DT89 »

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #722 on: December 12, 2017, 12:30:22 PM »
I listened to HOR for the first time in a long time, and honestly forgot how good it was.  brilliant, underrated album.

Absolutely agree! It's also one of a kind in their discography, since essentially Jon Oliva composed it and played it all by himself. Whatever (for commercial purposes) the credits say, Jon Oliva is behind every instrument in the album, except vocals and guitar solos (maybe he didn't play all guitars, but I'm quite confident he played drums and bass also).

It was his catharsis album to deal with the loss of Criss, to keep him busy and not fall back again into cocaine. An album born of tragic times but with so many great gems on it, I'll raise one for probably the most "obscure" song of the album, Symmetry, always loved the verses and the bridge.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #723 on: December 12, 2017, 02:22:32 PM »
I listened to HOR for the first time in a long time, and honestly forgot how good it was.  brilliant, underrated album.

Absolutely agree! It's also one of a kind in their discography, since essentially Jon Oliva composed it and played it all by himself. Whatever (for commercial purposes) the credits say, Jon Oliva is behind every instrument in the album, except vocals and guitar solos (maybe he didn't play all guitars, but I'm quite confident he played drums and bass also).

It was his catharsis album to deal with the loss of Criss, to keep him busy and not fall back again into cocaine. An album born of tragic times but with so many great gems on it, I'll raise one for probably the most "obscure" song of the album, Symmetry, always loved the verses and the bridge.

Yes, Jon played everything except the solos handled by Alex.
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Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #724 on: December 19, 2017, 10:51:35 AM »
Finished transcribing the Gutter Ballet album over the weekend, which brings me to 8 complete albums and 109 total songs.  Here's the medley I put together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4AP_OGfUzM

Also, I saw TSO on Sunday and had a good talk with Jeff Plate about the project.  He thinks it's a great idea and wants to help make it happen.  Hopefully once the tour is over, we'll be in touch more often and can work to get the transcriptions released.


Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #725 on: December 19, 2017, 11:40:25 AM »
That's very cool!  :tup
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #726 on: December 19, 2017, 02:34:43 PM »
Cool stuff man.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #727 on: December 19, 2017, 04:04:45 PM »
Pretty cool!

Offline DT89

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #728 on: January 05, 2018, 11:50:06 AM »
I finished 3 more songs from Fight For The Rock: the title track, The Edge Of Midnight, and She's Only Rock N' Roll.  At this point, there aren't many songs in the catalog that I haven't transcribed, so I decided to do parts of each one, and that can at least help people get on the right track to learning them.

Holocaust (rhythms and fills done, no solo)
I Believe (rhythms and intro solo done)
On The Run (rhythms and main solo done)


« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 10:36:25 PM by DT89 »

Offline SoundscapeMN

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #729 on: January 07, 2018, 10:44:48 PM »
https://musicandartinterviews.blogspot.com/2018/01/alex-skolnick.html

very cool new interview with Alex Skolnick talking about 'Tage and Handful of Rain along with his other work.

I had no idea TSO had played CHANCE live, although I guess without Zak, I'm not sure how I'd feel hearing it. But I should check YouTube to find any footage.

edit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd8bYZjbjdc
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 10:53:29 PM by SoundscapeMN »

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #730 on: February 09, 2018, 12:50:00 PM »
About TSO playing Savatage songs... they're doing more or less what Ritchie Blackmore is doing at this stage of his carrer - his own thing (Blackmore's Night), while playing here and there on the shows and on the albums some songs off Deep Purple and Rainbow.

This is an idea I really just had, how would you feel about a TSO album made entirely of Savatage covers? of course they would be mainly songs from Streets onwards (even though Gutter Ballet and When the Crowds are Gone are quite fitting for TSO), you can't have TSO perform By the Grace of the Witch or Devastation, but an album that pays homage to the band that spawned TSO would be a fitting tribute and a way to get TSO-only fans to properly acknowledge Savatage.

It annoys me to no end that Jon Oliva always struggled and lost a lot of money to keep Savatage alive, while the very same song that nobody cared for on Dead Winter Dead, Christmas Eve / Sarajevo, was presented as "Trans Siberian Orchestra" and suddenly made all the money. We'll never get Savatage as a touring and recording unit again (fingers crossed for some more shows) but an album of covers would be a nice way to say "Hey, remember where we all came from".

Furthermore, it could be another way to let the TSO singers be well known by Savatage fans. I remember reading a post Wacken interview with Jon Oliva and how he made a duet during Believe with a TSO guy, and everyone was like "No, that's your song, you have to sing it" and he insisted for the duet 'cause they needed to introduce the new blood, the ones who would keep the band alive when he and Paul (......  :-[ ) would no longer be there. An album of Savatage covers could make Sava-only fans and TSO-only fans more interested in each other.
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Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #731 on: February 09, 2018, 01:20:12 PM »
At this point I just wish Jon would make some sort of statement. He has been AWOL for awhile now it seems. I realize he has had some major life changes with people really close to him passing. I have been loving his solo career/JOP output and would love another record or at least some sort of statement that he is hanging it up.

His Facebook had a post from Jan 2017 mentioning big news coming. Then the next post is in July referencing Paul's passing and also saying he has been working on material. Nothing since then. I'm even having trouble tracking down any kind of recent interviews with him.

I also realize that he probably had to really step up with TSO.

Not complaining or anything, I get it if he has moved on in terms of his solo material. I just wish we could get a little update or something. This still sounds petty to me but my keyboard isn't allowing me to properly convey my thoughts. Hopefully, you get where I'm coming from.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #732 on: February 10, 2018, 12:26:06 PM »
Concerning TSO doing something Savatage related; I still think there is a strong possibility of them doing a non-seasonal TSO tour with a Savatage set, like the Wacken show taken on the road (but probably with only one stage) like they talked about doing back in 2011, and they will probably continue to bring more Savatage songs into the sets on their tours regardless.  As for doing a whole album of Savatage covers, remember the upcoming Gutter Ballet rock opera is going to have a lot of music borrowed from the 1989-1994 era of Savatage.  I don't think they want to do an entire album of straight-up covers, though we will probably continue to get the occasional one-off covers like "Stay" on Letters from the Labyrinth or "Believe" on Night Castle.

As for Jon, I've been wondering about him too.  Last time I checked the JOP facebook, the last post was about the Adrenaline Mob accident, though he did give this very brief interview last November https://parade.com/619487/nancyberk/trans-siberian-orchestras-jon-oliva-on-the-power-of-tso-and-the-2017-tour-that-lights-up-paul-oneills-vision/. I know that after he did Raise the Curtain back in 2013 he said the next JOP album was going to be the heaviest thing he had ever done, but more recently he said that his next non-TSO project was going to be a double album the covered all aspects of his musical career.  While he hasn't come out and said it, I do get the impression that JOP effectively ended with Matt's passing, and anything he does from this point on are going to be solo projects (although in many ways, JOP was a solo project).  I've noticed that since 2011 Jon has stopped promoting JOP as "Savatage reborn" while the narrative that Savatage evolved into TSO has taken prominence.  Not that I necessarily disagree with that point of view, but I think it is very telling of what Jon sees in the future of JOP vs TSO.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #733 on: February 10, 2018, 12:52:48 PM »
Concerning TSO doing something Savatage related; I still think there is a strong possibility of them doing a non-seasonal TSO tour with a Savatage set, like the Wacken show taken on the road (but probably with only one stage) like they talked about doing back in 2011, and they will probably continue to bring more Savatage songs into the sets on their tours regardless.  As for doing a whole album of Savatage covers, remember the upcoming Gutter Ballet rock opera is going to have a lot of music borrowed from the 1989-1994 era of Savatage.  I don't think they want to do an entire album of straight-up covers, though we will probably continue to get the occasional one-off covers like "Stay" on Letters from the Labyrinth or "Believe" on Night Castle.

When it comes to TSO however, "Upcoming" has really to be taken with a grain of salt  :D We're still waiting for the Romanov musical!

I thought too that implicitly Jon Oliva's Pain ended with Matt LaPorte's passing. Also Jon said he doesn't want to still sing Sirens when he's 70 so he's probably gonna be more a composer than a performer going forward. And I remember an interview when he said that at Wacken people could see how Savatage and TSO were essentially the same thing with the same players, adding that from his own perspective, Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan are more TSO albums with some Sava-sounding songs here and there, and that for him the band was done with Criss' passing.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #734 on: February 10, 2018, 01:07:22 PM »
Concerning TSO doing something Savatage related; I still think there is a strong possibility of them doing a non-seasonal TSO tour with a Savatage set, like the Wacken show taken on the road (but probably with only one stage) like they talked about doing back in 2011, and they will probably continue to bring more Savatage songs into the sets on their tours regardless.  As for doing a whole album of Savatage covers, remember the upcoming Gutter Ballet rock opera is going to have a lot of music borrowed from the 1989-1994 era of Savatage.  I don't think they want to do an entire album of straight-up covers, though we will probably continue to get the occasional one-off covers like "Stay" on Letters from the Labyrinth or "Believe" on Night Castle.

When it comes to TSO however, "Upcoming" has really to be taken with a grain of salt  :D We're still waiting for the Romanov musical!

I thought too that implicitly Jon Oliva's Pain ended with Matt LaPorte's passing. Also Jon said he doesn't want to still sing Sirens when he's 70 so he's probably gonna be more a composer than a performer going forward. And I remember an interview when he said that at Wacken people could see how Savatage and TSO were essentially the same thing with the same players, adding that from his own perspective, Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan are more TSO albums with some Sava-sounding songs here and there, and that for him the band was done with Criss' passing.

Yeah, even back when JOP was more active (2006-2010) Jon always said that Savatage never ended, it just "became another band" and that Savatage post-Criss was more TSO then Savatage.  I really think the whole idea of JOP being Savatage reborn came from 1) the fact that so much of the JOP material was made up of unused Savatage demos ('Tage Mahal was essentialy what Jon intended as the follow-up to Poets and Madmen ), 2) the vibe of the band being more akin to old-school Savatage pre-1993, and 3) to placate all the fans who wanted to see Savatage continue and return to a heavier sound after 2002.

Personally, I think that outside of Savatage/TSO, Jon can call his side projects whatever he wants.  There were already hints of the retro sound from Raise the Curtain apparent on Festival and Global Warning; Raise the Curtain just dropped much of the metal elements.  I read in an interview where Jon said that he doesn't really view his work in terms of "Savatage","TSO", or "JOP"; it's all just one massive body of music he's written over the years.  I can certainly understand that, especially considering the overlap of material from all his projects (both TSO and JOP have used Savatage music; Poets and Madmen had some unused material from Doctor Butcher; etc.)

And yes, I do take TSO's promises of upcoming material with a grain of salt.  I believe we will hear Romanov and Gutter Ballet eventually, but it may take another decade or two...  :P