Author Topic: The Savatage Thread  (Read 102667 times)

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Offline bl5150

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #490 on: July 31, 2015, 11:28:14 AM »
 One  minute  ;D  :hat


Top 5 band of all time for me ,so this is really great to see.

You there Tim? :lol


Top 5 band of all time for me
You serious? With all of the music you have heard in your life?

Right up there with the best of the best :TAC:
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Offline bl5150

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #491 on: July 31, 2015, 12:26:54 PM »
I have managed to snag a review copy of Caffery's new solo album for a listen on the weekend (due for release in a few weeks).  It's already won worst album cover of 2015 for me so let's see if the music lives up to the cover  ;D  The few reviews I have read have said it might be his best release, so.......
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Offline goo-goo

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #492 on: July 31, 2015, 01:36:42 PM »
Does anybody know if the new Savatage remasters are worth getting?

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #493 on: July 31, 2015, 01:38:38 PM »
In case anyone is wondering, here's the set for the Wacken show:

Savatage Set:

Gutter Ballet
24 Hours Ago
Edge of Thorns
Jesus Saves
The Storm
Dead Winter Dead
Hall of the Mountain King

TSO Set:

Madness of Men (new song)
Another Way You Can Die
Night Conceives
Toccata- Carpus Noctem
The Hourglass (duet with Zak from Savatage and Andrew Ross form TSO)
Beethoven
Prometheus (new song)
A Last Illusion

Savatage/TSO combined set:

The Mountian
Carmina Burana
Turns to Me
Another Way
Piano Solo
Mozart and Memories
Morphine Child
King Rurick (new song)
Believe
Chance
Christmas Eve (Sarajevo 12/24)
Requiem (The Fifth)

I still haven't viewed all the footage from the show, but suffice to say "holy fucking shit!"  The two stage set up was brilliant, the performance were top notch (although Jon does seem strained in a number of places), and the production was one of the best TSO has even done yet.  Some of the Savatage songs sounded really amazing with the additional orchestration from TSO.  The extra stings added to Hall of the Mountain King were killer, and Morphine Child fucking slays with the TSO chior.

 I'll comment more once I've seen the whole thing (or as much as I can find), but I really hope this gets released on DVD.  And Jon and Paul need to do more shows like this, perhaps on the next TSO non-holiday tour.  But for now, this is was a fantastic show, a great revitalization of  Savatage as a live performing entity, and hopefully a sign of more to come!

 :metal :metal :metal
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 12:10:37 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #494 on: July 31, 2015, 03:48:59 PM »
I have managed to snag a review copy of Caffery's new solo album for a listen on the weekend (due for release in a few weeks).  It's already won worst album cover of 2015 for me so let's see if the music lives up to the cover  ;D  The few reviews I have read have said it might be his best release, so.......

Keep us posted, as that's a big statement.  Faces and WARPED are really awesome.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Online jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #495 on: July 31, 2015, 07:26:17 PM »
Does anybody know if the new Savatage remasters are worth getting?

Yes!!!

This show needs a DVD/CD release ASAP.

Offline abydos

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #496 on: August 01, 2015, 12:43:27 AM »
I wish this set would include a few more songs from P&M. As for TSO - they seem to often skip my favourite song, The Dark (I really love the version with the female singer).

Offline SoundscapeMN

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #497 on: August 01, 2015, 08:30:22 PM »
no Taunting Cobras?  :azn:

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #498 on: August 02, 2015, 04:40:55 AM »
Watching a couple of bootleg vids from this Wacken show and the performance is really really good, we need a CD/DVD of this.
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Offline Evermind

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #499 on: August 02, 2015, 05:49:04 AM »
This sounds awesome and I would buy the DVD in a heartbeat. Really hope they'll make it.
This first band is Soen very cool swingy jazz fusion kinda stuff.

Offline abydos

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #500 on: August 02, 2015, 11:48:31 AM »
Should be a double dvd - one for each stage!

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #501 on: August 02, 2015, 04:17:11 PM »
Well, unfortunately it looks like any hopes of a DVD are dashed.  Christian Wentz, the guitar player for CIIC posted these comments on his facebook:

Quote
Christian Wentz There will be no dvd with Savatage
    21 hrs · Like · 1

    Christian Wentz I'm sitting next to Zak. I've spoken to most of the family here. I was at the press conference. There will not be a DVD.
    we witnessed a funeral for Savatage and the grand scheme for TSO. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    Christian Wentz They signed a contract that allowed for only the TSO portion of the show to be played after it was approved.

    Christian Wentz The Savatage portion of the show will never see the light of day

    Christian Wentz Because of the fact that this show was to bury Savatage, not raise them from the dead

    Christian Wentz Because Paul oNeil owns the name and the performance rights. This is his show.

source:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SavatageWacken2015/



To be honest, I'm not surprised in the least, though I am disappointed.

TSO makes so much money and it takes up so much of Paul and the band's time, there was no way they were going to bring back Savatage as a full time band.  The most I was expecting was maybe some more Savatage sets as part of TSO shows, like the Wacken show, or like what they had talked about doing on the Beethoven's Last Night tour.  Basically the Savatage guys getting up on stage with TSO and playing a bunch of Savatage songs.  They dabbled in that a bit on recent TSO tours (especially on the last European tour) and I can only hope that trend continues.

Jon mentioned last winter that the band had gotten offers for more Savatage reunion shows in other countires, including the US, so if we see some TSO shows with Savatage sets, I wouldn't be surprised.  At the very least, it seems like their trend of resurrecting Savatage songs for TSO will most likely continue.  But Savatage actually going out on tour, on their own?  I don't think that was ever in the cards.

Who knows, maybe we'll get a farewell EP or album of new songs like Jon talked about a couple years ago, but even that I doubt (because why would they release those songs as Savatage when they could just do them as TSO and make more money?).  Savatage being embalmed and put on display for TSO fans as a part of their past; that's about all I expect at this point.

Damn shame they're not releasing this on DVD, though.  Seriously, what the fuck do they have to gain by not putting it out?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 04:33:06 PM by The Dark Master »

Online jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #502 on: August 02, 2015, 05:12:44 PM »
bullshit

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #503 on: August 02, 2015, 05:38:32 PM »
bullshit

Fuck That Bull....

This deserves to be released. 

Unless...The powers that be decide it all decide to be idiots.
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Offline abydos

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #504 on: August 02, 2015, 06:12:49 PM »
Who is talking about reviving Savatage? Go make your money on TSO, but when you've gotten this, played both and could have filmed it... why not release it? Proper burial if nothing else. And get some money too. So annoying.

Offline Deathless

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #505 on: August 02, 2015, 06:55:19 PM »
They should definitely release it as a DVD... band sounds great, show looks fantastic, what's to lose there?

As far as re-activating Savatage in any capacity... I don't see a problem with them doing it while TSO is off? Or has TSO become a year-round project? I know they rent out the arena in Iowa or whatever for a few months to build the show, but what is wrong with a small pocket of tours here and there, especially if the offers are good enough to make money?

I understand that Paul owns the name, and if it's the case of just him not wanting it to happen that's a shame. It seems like the others are very interested in it still.


Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #506 on: August 02, 2015, 07:32:25 PM »
They should definitely release it as a DVD... band sounds great, show looks fantastic, what's to lose there?

As far as re-activating Savatage in any capacity... I don't see a problem with them doing it while TSO is off? Or has TSO become a year-round project? I know they rent out the arena in Iowa or whatever for a few months to build the show, but what is wrong with a small pocket of tours here and there, especially if the offers are good enough to make money?

I understand that Paul owns the name, and if it's the case of just him not wanting it to happen that's a shame. It seems like the others are very interested in it still.

There's a bit of a problem with getting Savatage to play some actual shows seperate of TSO.

For one thing, yes, TSO is now a year round thing, and it has been for almost a decade.  The band have been recording four rock operas over the past six years, and the first one is just reaching completion now.  Because of the sheer complexity of TSO albums, with so many people involved and whatnot, those records take an obscenely long time to make.  Much of TSO's time away from touring is spent in the studio.

Which brings up another point; the way the recording scheduling works for TSO, the Savatage guys don't really have a lot of free time together.  Jon and Paul write the albums, and while they are writing, that's when Caffery, Zak and the others get to do their own things.  Then they all get into the studio together to record.  And then, when the band is out on tour (or rehearsing for a tour, and those rehearsals take a couple months, every year), that's when Jon works on his JOP/solo records, and sometimes does a few short tours of his own.  It's pretty much impossible to get Jon on the same page as the rest of Savatage cause he uses his time off to do his own thing, which (I suspect) is the stuff he's most passionate about.

And that brings me to a third point; I honestly don't think Jon Oliva has much of an interest in doing Savatage anymore.  I've seen a lot of interviews he did from the Poets and Madmen era back in 2000-2002, and you can kind of tell he wasn't particularly happy with the way things were going in the Savatage camp.  He really wanted to make straight forward metal album, and seemed rather annoyed that Paul turned it into another rock opera.  I'm sure Jon genuinely enjoys working with Paul, but I think by 2001 he was starting to chafe under Paul's direction and wanted to go out and do his own thing.  For whatever reason, he couldn't do it as Savatage. 

Maybe it is because Paul owns the name (possible).  Maybe Jon felt putting together a new band as "Savatage" would be a slap in the face to Caffery and the other guys (he's said as much).  Or maybe Jon really does feel that Savatage was never quite Savatage without his brother (he has said this too, and a lot of people who have talked to him and Caffery and others over the years have gotten the impression that performing as Savatage became increasingly difficult for Jon after Criss died).  Whatever the reason, Jon decided to strike out on his own making the records he wanted to make.  And, for what it's worth, he seems generally happy doing it.  Compare the interviews he's done for JOP or solo records/tours to the interviews he did for Savatage between 1994 and 2002 and you'll see what I mean.  His passion for the band just wasn't there anymore, and he has clearly become happier doing his own thing.  The Savatage fan in me really wishes it hadn't turned out that way, but given everything he's been through, I'd feel like a selfish asshole asking him for more.

Ultimately, I've kind of just come to terms with the situation over the past couple years.  If TSO decides to bring back more Savatage songs into their sets, and maybe do some "reunion" shows here and there, I'd be up for it.  And I'm really looking forward to the next JOP album.  Of course, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a new Savatage album and tour.  But at this point, I can't get mad about it anymore.  I've seen it said that Savatage just became to big for one band, and given the diversity of material in the Savatage canon, I've kinda come to agree.  Compare Sirens to Dead Winter Dead and it sounds like two completely different bands.  Just like TSO and JOP.  Maybe what happened was, to a certain extent, inevitable.  As far back as '93/'94, Jon was toying around with simultaneous side projects like Romanov and Doctor Butcher.  I guess he just couldn't do everything under one name.  And once TSO became the real money maker, he no longer needed that name anyways.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 03:20:39 PM by The Dark Master »

Online jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #507 on: August 02, 2015, 07:44:57 PM »
Well put DM

Offline bl5150

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #508 on: August 02, 2015, 07:50:25 PM »
What if Jon got Caffery (and maybe JLM) involved in JOP?  Aside from the involvement of O'Neill (which I am not fussed about at this point - I would like an old style Savatage metal album)  that would be as much Savatage as just about anything since Edge of Thorns in my eyes. It will never happen but I'd be happy for them to call that Savatage , and it would surely sell more than JOP .........given their history and Criss's legacy it's nuts that O'Neill owns the name.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 08:02:37 PM by bl5150 »
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Online jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #509 on: August 03, 2015, 09:34:21 AM »
What if Jon got Caffery (and maybe JLM) involved in JOP?  Aside from the involvement of O'Neill (which I am not fussed about at this point - I would like an old style Savatage metal album)  that would be as much Savatage as just about anything since Edge of Thorns in my eyes. It will never happen but I'd be happy for them to call that Savatage , and it would surely sell more than JOP .........given their history and Criss's legacy it's nuts that O'Neill owns the name.

I think its time to give up with anything future Savatage.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #510 on: August 03, 2015, 09:57:27 AM »
I think its time to give up with anything future Savatage.

D'ya think??
That's a word salad - and take it from me, I know word salad
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #511 on: August 03, 2015, 03:19:39 PM »
For me, Savatage really ended with Criss Oliva's death. Savatage has always been the Oliva brothers' project.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #512 on: August 03, 2015, 03:42:19 PM »
What if Jon got Caffery (and maybe JLM) involved in JOP?  Aside from the involvement of O'Neill (which I am not fussed about at this point - I would like an old style Savatage metal album)  that would be as much Savatage as just about anything since Edge of Thorns in my eyes. It will never happen but I'd be happy for them to call that Savatage , and it would surely sell more than JOP .........given their history and Criss's legacy it's nuts that O'Neill owns the name.

It's not entirely out of the realm of possibly that something like that could still happen.  Caffery, Middleton, Zak and Doc all played with JOP at the Criss Oliva memorial concert in 2003.  Caffery co-wrote a song on the first JOP record while Doc played on a couple of songs on the same album.  Caffery and Doc both played with JOP at ProgPower USA in 2004 (Zak was supposed to be there as well, but couldn't make it because he was hospitalized due to a freak accident).  Zak performed some Savatage songs with JOP on the Global Warning tour in 2008.  Those guys are certainly still very much interested in playing together.

The problem is, the TSO schedule tends to limit their free time together, as I explained above.  Caffery's commitments to TSO prevented him from taking part in the 25th anniversary tour for HOTMK in 2012, and an anniversary tour for Gutter Ballet in 2014 was canceled most likely because Caffery and Middleton couldn't make it, again, due to TSO.  I wouldn't rule out the possibility of future informal Savatage reunions centered around JOP; if past precedent is anything to go by, they will most likely happen again in the future.  But as TSO expands beyond the Christmas season to become more of a year round thing, I would imagine the opportunities for such informal reunions of old Savatage members with JOP will be limited.

As for the name Savatage, Jon has stated multiple times that he has sole rights to the name, and could have just called JOP Savatage if he so wished.  He allegedly chose not to because a) he felt it was disrespectful to Caffery, Middleton and Plate, who were still formally in Savatage at the time, and b) because as I explained above, I don't think he really wants to continue Savatage without his brother.  Savatage was contractually obligated for four more albums after Edge Of Thorns (although the final album was put out by Nuclear Blast because Jon was dissatisfied with Atlantic's lack of promotion for Wake Of Magellan).  Between no longer needing the Savatage name to put out his records, Jon's increasing belief that the name Savatage was unmarketable (due to the difficulty the band experienced getting airplay for Christmas Eve (Sarajevo 12/24) verses the relative ease they found success with the same song when it was released as TSO), not wanting to disrespect members of Savatage by just putting together a new lineup, and not wanting to continue the band without Criss, Jon decided to lay Savatage to rest and just start a new band. 

The idea that Paul owns the name, in part or in whole, is just a rumor, and has never been proven.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he does.  He did a lot of favours for the band over the years that kept them going, so maybe he was compensated for that with some degree of ownership over the name.  But so far as has been officially stated, Jon Oliva owns Savatage, so in effect, Jon Oliva is Savatage.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 03:49:46 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline bl5150

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #513 on: August 03, 2015, 03:52:21 PM »
I don't have any great illusions about Savatage being a touring band - my idea was more that if Caffery spent the time he spends writing for solo stuff working on Savatage /JOP with Jon (which fans like me would effectively consider Savatage) , then it could work as a studio project at least.  It's then up to Jon (or Paul) whether they use the name to boost sales over JOP.

I have some sympathy for the idea that Savatage died with Criss ............I never had the love for any of the post Criss albums that I do for those with him.   Although on recent listening I liked WoM better than I recalled.

So if Savatage (which at this point means Jon, Chris and Johnny - for me.........plus or minus Zak) was to do something under whatever name then I would be all for a more metal approach along the lines of Maniacal Renderings.  That album had some great stuff but also tailed off after a strong opening.  The addition of Chris may help produce an all killer album.
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Offline TAC

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #514 on: August 08, 2015, 10:53:38 AM »
bravewords.com/news/savatage-rumours-of-more-shows-in-the-works-and-possible-new-album-continue-to-grow

May I now join in and  :metal
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #515 on: August 08, 2015, 01:08:37 PM »
Goddamn it, Savatage, stop teasing me like this.  Just do it already!

Seriously, though, this is good news, I can only hope it is a sign of things to come.

 :metal

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #516 on: August 08, 2015, 01:41:37 PM »
Savatage is kinda like Star Wars.  Every time you've finally accepted the movies are done, bam.

Offline Deathless

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #517 on: August 08, 2015, 04:47:56 PM »
Interesting. Wasn't it Zak's guitarist that posted on FB that Savatage was dead and that Wacken was it's funeral? Now you have another friend of the band saying it was a test... LOL! Well let's hope the latter is true.  :D

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #518 on: August 09, 2015, 04:19:02 AM »
They need a band conference to finally answer these questions once and for all.


Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #519 on: August 09, 2015, 04:33:47 AM »
They gotta do more shit, seriously, it seems a waste not to.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #520 on: August 09, 2015, 10:10:16 AM »
They need a band conference to finally answer these questions once and for all.

That would be nice, but they're not going to do that because they're going to have to work Savatage around the TSO schedule, which will not be easy, so I don't think they are willing to give any concrete promises for projects which they are not yet certain they can commit.  Even so, it's very nice to hear that Wacken went so well for them they are at least considering more shows and maybe more records.  Compared to where we were at only a few years ago when Jon was saying it will never happen, this is certainly progress.

They gotta do more shit, seriously, it seems a waste not to.

It's nice to hear that they are at least still considering doing more shows and possibly a new album.  Back in 2013 when Jon was doing promos for his solo record saying that he would be up for doing an EP, and I remember thinking, "Paul would never half-ass it with just an EP.  If Jon actually runs this by him, I really hope Paul's ambition gets the better of him and it becomes a full blown album."  Perhaps that's what happened.

Plus Jon has always said that a new album and a new tour would go hand in hand.  He didn't want to just whip up a Savatage tour without a new album to promote, and likewise, he didn't want to do a new album without a corresponding tour.

At any rate, I've always felt Savatage had more music in them.  Even with TSO, JOP and the others, there is that unique combination of Jon and Paul's songwriting and the band's particular talents that made the Savatage albums something special.  There is something to be said for going out on top, and I feel the band was at the top of their game creatively when they stopped after P&M.  That said, though, there still sounded like they had more they could have done with that formula, so here's hoping they have at least one (or a few) more left in them!  (And if it is just one more, make it a double!)

Offline Lowdz

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #521 on: August 09, 2015, 04:31:56 PM »
To be honest I'd be happy enough if TSO did a tour of Savatage music.
A new Sava album would be great but I don't see it happening.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #522 on: August 09, 2015, 08:18:20 PM »
To be honest I'd be happy enough if TSO did a tour of Savatage music.

Something of the sort was discussed back in 2011 when they did the second year of the Beethoven's Last Night tour.  Jon couldn't make it because a member of his family was hospitalized (plus Matt LaPorte died around that time too), but TSO has gradually been including more Savatage songs in their sets over the past several years, so I definitely think something like that is a very real possibility. 

A new Sava album would be great but I don't see it happening.

Yeah, as far as a new album goes, I'm not getting my hopes up until there is an official announcement.  If it happens though, I would be ecstatic beyond words!   :o

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Re: The Savatage Thread
« Reply #523 on: August 10, 2015, 07:32:32 AM »
I was a pretty big fan of TSO at first, but it wore thin quickly.

I'd prefer a Savatage release, but in reality, the odds of it living up to my expectations are pretty low.  Especially since I think Criss, Jon and Paul are the magical combination.  I think Criss allowed Paul to bring just enough of his good qualities to the table, but when it starts to dominate things start to go south.  Criss brought the fluid riff and solo factor that has been lacking since his demise.

Offline TAC

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would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol