The Savatage Thread

[jjrock88]

I know its been said before in this thread, but I would really hope to see one final Savatage album.  Preferably with both Jon and Zak on vocals.  I think that would make Dark M very happy too.

[The Dark Master]

The day a new Savatage album is released, I will immediately cum in my pants......

In all seriousness, one of the most frustrating things about the whole situation is simply knowing that this band has so much more to say and do creatively, and they now have the resources to do whatever the fuck they want, yet they just choose not to do it.  JOP, CIIC, Chris Caffery band, Machines of Grace.......  There is so much Sava-esque stuff being made out there by ex-members, it's ridiculous.  And there is actually a demand for the band, too.  Jon already plays more Savatage songs at his solo gigs then his JOP material, and Zak recently has been doing his special Savatage Sets with CIIC, most notably the anniversary performance of TWOM.  And there are a plethora of Savatage tribute bands out there as well; there are at least two of them in Chicago alone!

Fortunately, I think there is at least the possibility that we could be seeing some sort of Savatage performances again.  Zak has even said that the more popular TSO becomes, the more of a demand there is to see some sort of Savatage show, and all these solo bands and side projects just push the original band's legacy even further into the spotlight.  Really, I would not be surprised if between the popularity of TSO and the accessibility of the internet if Savatage has more fans now then they did back at their peak in the early and mid 90's.  The band even almost made a Savatage reunion part of the TSO spring tour back in 2010 before Jon had to drop out due to family issues.  Considering that even TSO themselves are playing more Savatage material recently then before, I think there is a very good chance that seeing Savatage play again in some form or another, is a very real possibility.  It may not happen tomorrow, but with all the hype surrounding their legend fueled by their ongoing side projects, I think some sort of out-of-retirement show for Savatage is inevitable.

The main issue, though, is I think we still have quite a while before there is another actual Savatage album, mostly because Paul is so wrapped up in TSO, he simply doesn't have time to work on a new Savatage record, and whether I like it or not, Savatage is just not Savatage without Paul.  JOP has shown what Jon can do on his own, and while excellent in it's own right, I don't think Jon's solo works are really worthy of the Savatage name.  There is a certain epic scope to Savatage's works that JOP simply lacks, both in the music and in the lyrics, and there is just something about the Savatage records themselves that make them somehow seem bigger then JOP.  No offense to Jon, of course, the man is a genius, but I really think the main reason why doesn't just call JOP Savatage is because he knows that he can't make a Savatage record without Paul.

Of course, that works both ways.  TSO shows what Paul will make when he has total creative control, and while TSO is impressive in it's own right, it lacks the heart, the soul, and the sheer balls that Savatage had.  Even Dead Winter Dead, that most symphonic of Savatage records which directly gave birth to TSO, had a certain bite to it that TSO just does not possess, and I think that is due to the fact that Jon and Savatage are more of sidemen to Paul in TSO, unlike the true partnership Paul and Jon had on the Savatage records.   TSO is Savatage-lite, with a bigger and "better" spectacle, but lacking a certain substance and depth that the original band could muster.

Anyways, Paul says he has three TSO albums in the works:  Romanov (which should be out next year), Gutter Ballet (which will remake the Streets story and have a lot of music borrowed from GB, Streets, EOT and HOR), and an as of yet unnamed third record.  Despite all of this, I hope that at some point he and Jon make some time to do a new Savatage record, because I think the band that started it all really deserves one last chance in the spotlight.  One more album (promoted though any media available to the band, including TSO), and a massive tour to support it, and trust me, Savatage will make a bigger, more direct impact on the metal world then they already have.  And if the album and tour is successful enough, maybe, just maybe, they will consider keeping Savatage up and running for a whole new generation of fans that never had a chance to experience the band back in it's heyday, but are just now discovering Savatage for themselves.

[jjrock88]

I don't think anybody on earth could have said it better.

[wolfking]

Great post Dark Master.  i didn't know about the upcoming Gutter Ballet project, should be interesting.

[The Dark Master]

Thanks guys!   

And yea, the TSO adaptation of Gutter Ballet should be awesome.  They have been previewing a couple songs from it over the past couple years, Someday and Child Unseen, the latter of which borrows from a little piece of Savatage history you may find interesting:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPrPaQcp63k

It sounds like it's gonna be bad ass!   

[The Dark Master]

If anyone is interested, Savatage just launched a new merch site:  https://savatage.shop.bravadousa.com/

They only have a few t-shirts up so far, but I would expect that they will put up more stuff soon.  In the meantime, these shirts look pretty nice.  I've already got a DWD shirt, but I may want to get one of these, too, just for variety's sake, as well as to show my love for the band.

[jjrock88]

I like that metallic red one.

[The Dark Master]

So with it being the season for TSO, I'm bumping this thread.  TSO will be playing The Lost Christmas Eve in it's entirety on their winter tour this year.  Even though I'm not a huge fan of their Christmas works (a tad saccharine and commercial for my tastes) I do like TLCE the most of the three X-mas records, so it should be a pretty fun show, and a nice change-up from their usual winter tour setlists. 

Also, TSO has released a five song EP called Dreams Of Fireflies (On A Christmas Night).  The band has posted the entire EP is on youtube, so go check it out.  Still no official release date yet for Romanov, but at this point I would guess they plan on releasing it to coincide with their 2013 spring tour (March/April).

On the JOP front, Jon Oliva has said that he would like to take his song writing clinic from ProgPower on the road across the US sometime next year, so any fans of old-school Savatage and JOP should check that out if it comes near them (I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a Chicago or Milwaukee date).  He says he will be playing unreleased and upcoming material, so it should be a very cool and unique look into all the madness that goes into the Mountain King's creative process. 

Jon also did this interview back in Aug that I forgot to post:  https://getreadytorock.me.uk/blog/2012/08/jon-olivas-pain-jon-oliva-interview-2/.  While some of it is a retread of the last JO interview I posted, he has some very interesting new things to talk about.  Among other things, he talks quite a bit about Matt's passing, and unfortunately, it looks like the JOP live DVD will not be happening.

Lastly, Circle II Circle finally announced a release date for the new album!    Seasons Will Fall should be out in February 2013.  Looking forward to this one quite a bit   

[wolfking]

Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.

[jjrock88]

Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.

[jingle.boy]

Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.

Ya know, you guys have tried, but every CIIC I've had a listen to, I was 'meh' about.  They just don't do anything to float my boat.

[jjrock88]

Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.

Ya know, you guys have tried, but every CIIC I've had a listen to, I was 'meh' about.  They just don't do anything to float my boat.

I find that surprising in the sense that I know you are a big fan of TSO.  Zak Stevens era Savatage and CIIC just seem to go hand in hand with TSO for me.

[jingle.boy]

Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.

Ya know, you guys have tried, but every CIIC I've had a listen to, I was 'meh' about.  They just don't do anything to float my boat.

I find that surprising in the sense that I know you are a big fan of TSO.  Zak Stevens era Savatage and CIIC just seem to go hand in hand with TSO for me.

As I recall, I liked the music plenty, but vocally (and I can't remember which tracks/albums I tried), it was a big bag of 'meh'.

[The Dark Master]

I think something one has to bear in mind with CIIC is that it is, by default, Zak's solo band.  Even though Jon Oliva and Chris Caffery co-wrote some tracks on the first couple CIIC records, it was still primarily Zak who was coming up with the music and lyrics.  I remember in an interview from around the time the first CIIC album came out, he was talking about how it was an interesting experience for him to be in the driver's seat creatively for a change, with Chris and Jon really just sort of helping him flesh out ideas.  By contrast, he noted that in Savatage and TSO, he contributed very little in the songwriting department because all the writing was done by Jon and Paul, with the various guitarists (C. Oliva, Caffery and Pitrelli) contributing bits here and there.  Zak said he didn't mind that arrangement because Jon and Paul gave him such good material to sing, and in fact singing Jon and Paul's songs inspired him to write his own.   

However, there is a very clear distinction between Zak's writing style and Jon/Paul's.  Classical and Broadway aren't quite as big of an influence on Zak as they are on the other guys; he likes writing much more straight forward hard rock and heavy metal songs, so for his own records, he adjusts his singing style accordingly.  I really don't think there is anything wrong with how he sings on the CIIC records.  Granted, it's not quite as creative from a melodic viewpoint as Savatage or TSO, but it works with the CIIC material.  I guess it's just a difference of hard rock/heavy metal vs progressive/ symphonic rock/metal.

[wolfking]

Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.

Ya know, you guys have tried, but every CIIC I've had a listen to, I was 'meh' about.  They just don't do anything to float my boat.

Have you tried Burden of Truth?

[jingle.boy]

Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.

Ya know, you guys have tried, but every CIIC I've had a listen to, I was 'meh' about.  They just don't do anything to float my boat.

Have you tried Burden of Truth?

Don't think so - and don't bitch at me... yes I know you've recommended it before.  It's on the 'later' list.  I've tried Watching in Silence, and Delusions of Grandeur.

[jjrock88]

Burden of Truth is without question my favorite from CIIC and I think their best release overall.  That's where I would start

[wolfking]

Burden of Truth is without question my favorite from CIIC and I think their best release overall.  That's where I would start

This Chad......this.

[The Dark Master]

Burden Of Truth was the album where Zak really came into his own as a songwriter.  While he certainly was the primary creative mastermind behind the first two CIIC albums as well, he wore his Savatage influences on his sleeves a bit more, which was reinforced by the contributions from Oliva and Caffery on those records as well.  BOT was where Zak started to step out of the shadows of Jon, Paul and Chris and really started to make a name for himself as a composer, not just as a singer, and it was the album where CIIC became a band in it's own right, and not just Savatage Jr.

[jingle.boy]

Burden of Truth is without question my favorite from CIIC and I think their best release overall.  That's where I would start

This Chad......this.

Allrighty, it was much better than the other two CIIC albums I listened to.  Still not totally wow'd - vocals being the weak point.  But, it didn't suck.   

Still got WWWAAAAYYYYY too much other stuff to work through before I give this any serious repeat listens.

[jjrock88]

Anyone getting the new TSO next week, Dreams of Fireflies.  Its only an EP, but from what Ive heard, its pretty good.

[The Dark Master]

Anyone getting the new TSO next week, Dreams of Fireflies.  Its only an EP, but from what Ive heard, its pretty good.

I've already heard it, and it was pretty damn good.  The title track and Winter Palace were both solid instrumentals (Even if the title cut does borrow from Mozart's Magic Flute, which they already did with Queen Of The Winter Night on The Lost Christmas Eve).  I think Winter Palace is another track from their upcoming Romanov rock opera, but I'm not certain.  Regardless, it is probably my favourite song on the EP.  Someday is from the upcoming Gutter Ballet rock opera, this time with Tim Huckaby on vox.  I like his voice a lot, but I thought Kayla Reeve and Dari Mahnic were both better suited for the song based on their performances of it on the past few TSO tours.  I Had A Memory is a pretty rocking gospel inspired track, and easily my favourite vocal song on the EP.  Time You Should Be Sleeping is a pretty standard TSO ballad in the vein of BLN's A Final Dream or TLCE's Midnight Clear, but a rather good one none the less.

All things considered, it's a solid 5 song EP.  If I am to take it as a preview of what to expect from Romanov and Gutter Ballet (which is what I think it is), then I am all the more eager for both of those albums to finally get released.   

[jjrock88]

DM, is Gutter Ballet an upcoming full length disc or show from TSO? Is it all Christmas related? I agree, the title track and winter palace are solid instrumentals from the EP

[The Dark Master]

DM, is Gutter Ballet an upcoming full length disc or show from TSO? Is it all Christmas related? I agree, the title track and winter palace are solid instrumentals from the EP

Paul has said that both Gutter Ballet and Romanov will be released as TSO albums, but there also seem to be plans beyond that to make both of the projects into something more.  At one point Paul commented that he wants to take both projects (and maybe Beethoven's Last Night, as well) to Broadway, but he has also said that most Broadway venues would not be fully capable of bringing his vision for these rock operas to life.  I guess that was part of the reason why Romanov got put on the back burner for so long, and the band concentrated on other albums to build up the popularity of TSO first. 

Earlier this year, Paul made a post on the TSO website about the constant evolution of the band and how they are finally reaching the point where they can do the things they have really wanted to do from the beginning, and how the band will continue to develop into what he calls "Rock Theater".  I think he may intend to just have TSO do the full on Broadway versions of these shows themselves, which was part of the reason behind the TSO spring tours, to establish TSO as a live act beyond the Christmas season, and to establish Paul and Jon's long held ambitions of making TSO/Savatage into a sort of self-contained symphonic progressive heavy metal Broadway phemomina.

Beyond all that, Jon said in one of those recent interviews I posted that Paul also talked about making a Romanov animated movie as well, so it seems that the possibilities of what could be done with these albums are really endless.  No matter what, though it seems like both the band and the record label are just focused on getting the albums out first, and then deciding what to do with them beyond that later. 

For me, the big question is when.  Last summer (2012), Jon said Romanov should be out in the next year or so, and they also said the 2012 spring tour will be the last BLN show for a while, so I am hoping that means the Spring 2013 tour will be the first Romanov tour, and the record for Romanov will be out around March/April next year.  However, Jon had also said that Night Castle would be out in 2007, so his track record of predicting TSO release dates is not exactly reliable. Paul refuses to comment on when Romanov or Gutter will finally be released because:https://somethingelsereviews.com/2012/02/15/something-else-interview-trans-siberian-orchestras-paul-oneill/

  I’ve learned my lesson after Night Castle (after the album was delayed for years, expanding into a two-disc concept piece) to not make any promises about when they’ll be out.

[jjrock88]

Like usual, outstanding Savatage answer DM.

[The Dark Master]

Like usual, outstanding Savatage answer DM.

Thank you     I generally try to keep myself informed of all happenings in the Savatage, partially because the guys, especially Jon, always have interesting things to say in interviews, and partially also because if/when any sort of Savatage event takes place, I want to be the first to know .  Recently, I've been keeping an eye out for Paul O'Neill interviews more then I have in the past, since I am eagerly awaiting the next two TSO albums.

Also, I re-read over that interview I linked to in my last post, and this little exchange caught my eye: 

FRED PHILLIPS: A lot of the musicians in TSO shuffle in and out, leaving for other projects and coming back. How does that affect things?
PAUL O’NEILL: People are allowed to come and go in TSO. I always ask the young kids if they could be doing anything, what would it be? Katrina Chester told me that her whole life she’d wanted to do a Broadway show about Janis Joplin. When “Love, Janis” held auditions, she asked if she could try out and if she didn’t get the part, if she could come back. I told her not only can you audition, but I’ll get you a publicist and make some phone calls for you. We’ve been very lucky with the talent that’s come on board. I want to allow the band to breathe. I never want it to become just a job. I tell everyone on that stage that some people who come to see us have plenty of money, and it’s no big deal, but for some people that come to see us, that’s their only entertainment of the year. We don’t have the right to not give them the very best show that we can.

This is something that has bothered me about the whole Savatage situation for a while now.  If Paul is so cool with musicians coming and going from TSO at a whim, it really makes me wonder what exactly is preventing Savatage from going out and playing some shows.  I mean, TSO has so many musicians on tap for their touring companies, and outside of the Christmas season, they only use one anyways, so what really is stopping Savatage from touring in the summer?  I can understand if Jon wants to wait for Paul to do another Savatage album, since Paul was such a crucial part of the songwriting in Savatage, but honestly, what is truly stopping Jon, Zak, Chris, Al (or Alex), Johnny and Jeff (or Doc) from just going out and doing a short summer tour?  It just seems to me (and Caffery has implied this in interviews) that Savatage really could tour if they wanted to, but for what ever reason Jon simply refuses to do so.

[jjrock88]

If the rest of the band wants to do it, they should go out in the summer without Jon and Paul being on board. I can see it being a minor success and hopefully Jon and Paul come around in the future and realize there is abit of a demand for Savatage.

[The Dark Master]

I think Jon has exclusive rights to the name "Savatage", so I don't think they could technically tour as such without his approval.  There is always the outside chance that he would let them do the tour without him, but somehow I doubt it.  I do think, though, that it would be very likely to have Zak, Chris, Al, Johnny, Jeff and some keyboardist (preferably John Zahner, since he has a lot of experience playing Sava-songs in Savatage, CIIC and JOP) do something similar to the Weapons Of Mass Destruction show at ProgPowerUSA '04.  Just a bunch of "Tage members playing Savatage songs live, but under a different name. Caffery actually does a pretty good Jon Oliva style of singing and he knows the songs like the back of his hand, so he could sing the JO vocal parts live.  If it was successful, it may show Jon that there is a demand out there for a proper Savatage tour, and not just TSO, JOP, CIIC, CC, MOG or whatever playing Savatage songs as part of their sets,and finally motivate Jon and Paul to get the guys together and write another Savatage album.  Such a tour would be all sorts of    If it ever happens, I will be the first person to have front row seats for the Chicago or Milwaukee show (although for a tour like that, I may need to see it more then once anyways )

[The Dark Master]

So, according to the JOP facebook, Jon's new album will be released as a straight up solo record, and not as a JOP record.

NEW RECORD SPRING 2013:
-----------------------
Good day one and all,

We thank you all for your patience with regards to
announcing our new recording plans.

While JOP is very much intact and focused on new music and
future touring...JON OLIVA will release his first ever solo record in early 2013.

Jon has assembled a collection of ideas from the past 4-5 years and wants the opportunity to present them as his own work. Jon will be recording nearly all the instrument tracks and vocals himself and also playing drums on several tracks. Once again, I have the honor of recording the bulk of the drum tracks on the new cd, but this record will have been created from start to finish with Jon being completely
at the helm.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oliva: "I’ve got some weird ideas that I wanna try and I’ve got some time to do it. I don’t want do just 'another' JOP record. I’ve done four of those already. I wanna do something different. I have some material that I’ve wanted to put out for a while, that I’ll talk with the record company about, maybe putting something out quickly, like in the next four or five months, to give me more time to do this JOP record. I want the next JOP cd to be very special. I’ve got some great friends from other bands that are going to be a significant part of the next JOP release. We are going to do a killer JOP record and then an additional bonus cd with guest stars... kind of like the AVANTASIA thing but not in a story line. Tobias Sammet does a magnificent job with it, but I don’t have that much time to write a whole story, so I’ll just have some powerhouse friends from various bands come in and take it over the top."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Drum recordings begin at the legendary Morrisound Studio's in mid December. The record will be released via AFM RECORDS in the spring
of 2013.

Thank you all....new music soon!

Christopher Kinder- JOP

This is very interesting news.  It seemed like after Matt's passing, JOP was thrown into some sort of limbo, and tbh, I had doubts about whether or not Jon would even want to continue the band, especially considering some of his comments in recent interviews about wanting to do something different for his next album and not wanting to make it "just another JOP record".  Well it seems JOP will continue, and will do another album at some point, but for the moment, Jon wants to do a real solo record without having to release it as under the banner of any of his bands.  I'm very curious to see how this turns out, and what the differences will be between this album, JOP, Savatage, and/or Doctor Butcher.

[wolfking]

Just received the new CIIC album in the mail and am listening to it for the first time.  Anyone else checked it out yet.

First thing I can say is thank God we have some great production as opposed to the last two which really detracted from the songs.  I'm only up to track 4 which is an epic 9 minute piece called Epiphany which really is incredible.  So far it's familiar territory and it sounds like the record will be a bit samey but very consistent like the last one.  The guitar solos are amazing.

[jjrock88]

I'm getting it for sure, but I was going to order it when the new Saxon comes out and get them together.

[Big Hath]

I have never listened to Savatage at all (although I do have CIIC's Burden of Truth and really like it - I realize they aren't the same band).  So . . . I just ordered Edge of Thorns.  Looking forward to listening to it.

[Scorpion]

Poets and Madmen is my favourite by a long shot. The others aren't bad, but P&M has an edge, a certain roughness to it that makes it a unique record among Savatage's catalogue.

[jjrock88]

I have never listened to Savatage at all (although I do have CIIC's Burden of Truth and really like it - I realize they aren't the same band).  So . . . I just ordered Edge of Thorns.  Looking forward to listening to it.

Edge of Thorns is a great place to start.  Another great starting point is Hall of the Mountain King.

[Orthogonal]

I concur, Edge of Thorns is a great album to give you a taste of the 2nd half of their catalog, if you like it, you'd like pretty much all the albums after it.