Black Sabbath Discussion Thread

[The King in Crimson]

Sabotage or Master of Reality

Paranoid and Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath are very good too.

[jjrock88]

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is a classic as well

[Fluffy Lothario]

My favourite's their first, by a fair margin. They have better songs on most of their albums than the best on that one, but it's the most well-rounded, and it's damn good all the way. And I really like the bluesier feel of that album.

[wolfking]

Been cranking Headless Cross today.  Amazing record.

[El Barto]

Sabbath Drummer says he may pull out of reunion

LONDON (Reuters) - Black Sabbath drummer Bill Ward has said he will not participate in the British heavy metal band's reunion recordings and tour unless he is offered a "signable" contract.

The statement on his website casts further doubt on the much-hyped return of the veteran rockers, who announced last November that the original line-up were getting back together to write and record their first album in more than 30 years.

They also unveiled plans for a world tour in 2012.

But last month, guitarist Tony Iommi was diagnosed with the early stages of lymphoma and, to accommodate his treatment, the band moved from the United States to Birmingham in Britain to continue writing and recording.

The founding members of the heavy metal pioneers were Ozzy Osbourne on vocals, Iommi, Geezer Butler on bass guitar and Ward.

"At this time, I would love nothing more than to be able to proceed with the Black Sabbath album and tour," Ward said on his website.

"However, I am unable to continue unless a 'signable' contract is drawn up; a contract that reflects some dignity and respect toward me as an original member of the band."

He said he worked with the other Black Sabbath members "in good faith" last year and agreed to appear alongside them at the November press conference in Los Angeles.

"Several days ago, after nearly a year of trying to negotiate, another 'unsignable' contract was handed to me."

He said he was keen to play on the new album and tour, and was already packed and ready to leave the United States for Britain to join the band.

Ward described feeling "lousy and lonely," but added that he stood to lose his "rights, dignity and respectability as a rock musician" if he signed the contract offered to him.

"If I'm replaced, I have to face you, the beloved Sabbath fans. I hope you will not hold me responsible for the failure of an original Black Sabbath lineup as promoted."

He also said his motives were not "greed-driven" and that he was not holding out for a big pay day "like some kind of blackmail deal."

I can't imagine what a more wonderful place the world would be if cancer had gotten Sharron Osbourne 10 years ago.  Or better yet,  her father's dogs 20 years prior.

I'd be willing to bet that Ward and Butler understand they're not the draw that Ozzy's braindead, crippled ass is, but they're still an integral part of the band and deserve to be treated as such.  History's shown that the Osbournes have never given a shit about the musicians behind them,  and it's a constant source of annoyance for me.

[Progmetty]

I can't imagine what a more wonderful place the world would be if cancer had gotten Sharron Osbourne 10 years ago.  Or better yet,  her father's dogs 20 years prior.
I'd be willing to bet that Ward and Butler understand they're not the draw that Ozzy's braindead, crippled ass is, but they're still an integral part of the band and deserve to be treated as such.  History's shown that the Osbournes have never given a shit about the musicians behind them,  and it's a constant source of annoyance for me.

Good God Barto I'm glad I read that post before I posted the exact same thing.

[KevShmev]

What kills me is when people still give the Osbournes money, since they can't resist getting the lastest Ozzy remaster or seeing the latest Sabbath reunion tour.  If she is so evil, stop giving her money by paying for anything relating to Ozzy Osbourne.  If it means you miss out on a tour, so be it.  That is how I see it. 

[Dark Castle]

But if I buy my remasters used, then it's all good 

[Progmetty]

There's no more recent remasters than the ones from 2004, right?

[Orbert]

I'm not playing the devil's advocate here; I honestly don't know.  Do we know for a fact that Sharon Osbourne is the problem?  I read Bill Ward's entire statement, about how he deserves some dignity and respect as a founding member (which I totally agree with) and I was thinking the whole way through that he's probably just looking for 1/4 of the take, just as each of the other three deserve.  Then I got to the last sentence and he says it's not about the money, so now I don't even know.

People can argue all they want about how Black Sabbath is "more" about Tony or Ozzy, but it seems to me that when it's the original four getting back together, you just split the take four ways.  Anything less than that is a slap in the face.

[Dark Castle]

Keep in mind, Ward didn't take part in Heaven and Hell.  IMO they should just get Vinny Apice, worked real nice for H&H, why not for this?

[El Barto]

Keep in mind, Ward didn't take part in Heaven and Hell.  IMO they should just get Vinny Apice, worked real nice for H&H, why not for this?

I suspect that's the fallback option.  While I like Vinnie,  he's a far cry from Bill Ward, though.  Seeing Ward is a big part of the equation. 

There's no more recent remasters than the ones from 2004, right?

.
I'm not sure,  but I think they re-remastered the first two albums with the original members on them.  Ironically,  the Trujillo/Bordin versions might actually wind up being collectors items at some point.

What kills me is when people still give the Osbournes money, since they can't resist getting the lastest Ozzy remaster or seeing the latest Sabbath reunion tour.  If she is so evil, stop giving her money by paying for anything relating to Ozzy Osbourne.  If it means you miss out on a tour, so be it.  That is how I see it. 

I swore off giving those assholes money after the San Bernardino Ozzfest fiasco.  As far as I'm concerned,  that bitch owes me money.   That wouldn't prevent me from buying a $10 scalper seat, though. 

[wolfking]

Interesting views from Bill.  I guess we really don't know the reasons behind it, but Bill is always genuine, so maybe what he is saying and where he is coming from is right.  Why shouldn't they all get a quater each, seems only fair.  IMO, Ozzy should take home the least.

[Toolgirly]

If there is no Bill Ward, it is NOT a Black Sabbath reunion. Period.

[Jirpo]

Interesting views from Bill.  I guess we really don't know the reasons behind it, but Bill is always genuine, so maybe what he is saying and where he is coming from is right.  Why shouldn't they all get a quater each, seems only fair.  IMO, Ozzy should take home the least.

Yeah I agree. I don't think they should have even brought Ozzy back anyway...

[wolfking]

Interesting views from Bill.  I guess we really don't know the reasons behind it, but Bill is always genuine, so maybe what he is saying and where he is coming from is right.  Why shouldn't they all get a quater each, seems only fair.  IMO, Ozzy should take home the least.

Yeah I agree. I don't think they should have even brought Ozzy back anyway...

Totally agree with you.  I would have brought back Martin, Hughes or Gillan before even thinking about Ozzy.

[Gadough]

Regardless of whether or not it's Sharon's fault, this is hardly surprising. Bill is a flaky dude. Not speaking ill of his drumming abilities, but we all know he's a bit of a curmudgeon. I bet he's using whatever legal thing he mentions as an excuse for his heart not being in it. Just a hunch.

[wolfking]

Gadough's right, Bill has pulled out of things like this quite a few times.  Remember he was suppose to be the drummer of H&H, but pulled out due to his health issues.

[El Barto]

There's no indication that his health issues were anything other than genuine.  IIRC,  he bailed last time because of a heart attack.  Not exactly trivial.  And when you factor in the Osbourne's past history towards the musicians behind Ozzy,  this all makes pretty good sense.

Interesting views from Bill.  I guess we really don't know the reasons behind it, but Bill is always genuine, so maybe what he is saying and where he is coming from is right.  Why shouldn't they all get a quater each, seems only fair.  IMO, Ozzy should take home the least.

That's a tough one.  He's certainly the freeloader insofar as talent goes.  He's also (quite stupidly) the main draw.  Plenty of us would go to see Butler/Ward/Iommi regardless,  but we'd see them in a club or theater.  Ozzy makes it an arena. 

I'd love to see a Sabbath reunion of Tony Martin era stuff,  but he couldn't sing his material live 20 years ago,  much less now.  His last attempt at a solo tour had a guy off stage singing parts of the songs. 

[Gadough]

I don't think either one of us were implying that his reasons weren't/aren't legitimate. Perhaps flake was the wrong word to use.

If he has health problems or simply doesn't want to take part, that's fine. Both perfectly good reasons.

[Orbert]

Yeah, Ozzy's a wreck now, Bill's health and attitude are questionable, and there have been some other great lineups over the years, but there's still something extra cool about the original four getting back together.  My hope is that it happens, and somehow being on stage with the others extracts some amazing performances from Ozzy (and everyone else involved, for that matter).

[El Barto]

Yeah,  something else to consider is that you can generally count on Ozzy to miss a handful of shows each tour.  I wouldn't want to spend money up front for a show that might or might not happen.  Had a friend arrive to an empty venue after driving to California once,  sorta like Clark Griswald.  Fuck that.  All the more reason to buy the giveaways at the venue from scalpers. 

[Dark Castle]

I think you all are giving Ozzy a little too much Flak.  If it's anyone to hate it's Sharon, I saw Ozzy on his Black Rain tour and he did pretty well, and to say Ozzy's not bringing much is real untrue, as his vocals are part of the reason I even got into metal.  His Solo Career has always been quite enjoyable to me, and Sabbath has always been awesome as well, but my favorite material from them are when Ozzy's at the helm.

[wolfking]

I'd love to see a Sabbath reunion of Tony Martin era stuff,  but he couldn't sing his material live 20 years ago,  much less now.  His last attempt at a solo tour had a guy off stage singing parts of the songs.

Seriously??

[BlobVanDam]

Interesting views from Bill.  I guess we really don't know the reasons behind it, but Bill is always genuine, so maybe what he is saying and where he is coming from is right.  Why shouldn't they all get a quater each, seems only fair.  IMO, Ozzy should take home the least.

Yeah I agree. I don't think they should have even brought Ozzy back anyway...

Totally agree with you.  I would have brought back Martin, Hughes or Gillan before even thinking about Ozzy.

And in that case they would have been thinking about playing bars and clubs instead of playing arenas. Face it, the Ozzy lineup is the only classic and popular lineup they can perform with since Dio's death.
Even though Ozzy's vocals recently even on studio records are like "Weekend at Ozzy's", I'm excited to hear the original line-up that wrote all of those classic songs. And even though it sucks to have Bill Ward have to pull out for something like this, I'm actually perfectly fine if they go with Vinny Appice. I would have expected them to do it at some point anyway considering Bill Ward's physical condition. I just didn't see him holding up for a world tour.

[wolfking]

I totally agree, Ozzy was the only one to give Sabbath the attention back, I know that, I personally just would prefer any of the other three singers before Ozzy.  I know they would never do it.  And even I've been hoping for a new Martin album for over ten years, I know it will never happen.

[BlobVanDam]

Well I won't argue that any of those other singers could do an infinitely better job than Ozzy. And I'd be just as interested in anything they release, and go to see them live regardless of who they get on vocals (I mean, it's Tony. TONY!) But from a business perspective, this was the right move for them, and I'm still a big Ozzy fan despite the fact he's gone downhill.

[El Barto]

I'd love to see a Sabbath reunion of Tony Martin era stuff,  but he couldn't sing his material live 20 years ago,  much less now.  His last attempt at a solo tour had a guy off stage singing parts of the songs.

Seriously??

In the more recent videos,  Geoff Nichols doubles most of his vocals,  and does all of the higher parts.  Turns out he's not offstage,  but just never shown in the crowd shot videos--my bad.  Regardless,  Martin's managed to muster up awesome studio performances,  but that's about it.  Here he is from '95 with Sabbath bluffing his way through The Shining.  Very unfortunate because there was some awesome music during that era. 

And in that case they would have been thinking about playing bars and clubs instead of playing arenas. Face it, the Ozzy lineup is the only classic and popular lineup they can perform with since Dio's death.

Absolutely correct.  Better for them,  but from my perspective,  I'd pay good money to see Iommi, Rondinelli, Murray, Nichols and some singer play in a club.  I wouldn't pay much more than $15 to see the latest Ozzfest lite,  with 3 warm up acts and a 70 minute set from Ozzy/Sabbath.  And with Appice instead of Ward,  it'd probably have to be free to warrant giving up an evening at home.

[wolfking]

Martin always suffered live, Cross Purposes show that.  And even the live in Moscow bootleg DVD shows Martin at the top of his range live.  A good performance but he must have struggled a lot in the studio to get some of the performances that he did, as on the DVD he still changes melodies a lot to avoid the highs.

[El Barto]

Unfortunately,  Iommi's really only got two options.  Hire a new singer and play clubs to people like me,  or hook up with Ozzy and play for 12k kids.  Quite honestly an easy choice. 

And upon further reflection,  the opportunity to see Iommi shred his way through Dirty Women while teenage AX7 fan-girls and their skanky moms all show their tits probably puts it back into the I'd-pay-to-see range (though not by a whole lot). 

[adace]

Really disappointed at the fight between Bill and the rest of the band but I think they made the right decision to press on without him. Black Sabbath went ahead with Dio after they fired Ozzy and the band was still called Black Sabbath so maybe this would be an analogy to that. But of course I'd love to see Bill join the lineup and feature on the record. If he won't do it then they can just call Vinny Appice again.

[Mladen]

I would have brought back Martin, Hughes or Gillan before even thinking about Ozzy.

Yeah, because that tour would sure make a lot of money. 

[wolfking]

I personally would love to see Martin, Hughes or Gillan before even thinking about Ozzy.

Yeah, because that tour would sure make a lot of money. 

I have changed my wording on this quote as my personal preference and a decision from a business point of view are two totally different things.

[Mladen]

Fair enough, it makes sense. I don't know if there are enough huge Martin era fans to sell out a concert, but if they want to have a profitable tour, the reunion with the original members is the only way. I don't wanna blame the guys, it's the money we're talking about. But still, for all the fans, what matters is hearing those good old songs, even if we try to forget who will be sitting on a drum stool.

I'm personally not too happy about the situation, but what can you do. It's still Ozzy, Tony and Geezer.

[El Barto]

According to The Pulse Of Radio, a source has told MetalTalk.net that the three remaining original members of BLACK SABBATH have recruited Tommy Clufetos, who plays drums in singer Ozzy Osbourne's solo band, to sit behind the SABBATH kit for the foreseeable future. The source added that manager Sharon Osbourne has effectively "fired" founding drummer Bill Ward, who announced last week that he could not participate in the recording sessions or tour plans due to his unhappiness with the contract he was offered.

Ozzy, guitarist Tony Iommi and bassist Geezer Butler responded to Ward's February 2 statement by saying, "We have no choice but to continue recording without him although our door is always open."

The absence of Ward effectively prevents this from being the full-blown regrouping of the original SABBATH lineup that was first envisioned last year.

A number of SABBATH fans have rallied around Ward and have launched a new Facebook page dubbed "1,000,000 Black Sabbath Fans Say Yes To Bill Ward".

I'd really like to know what the unsignable contract looked like.  The fact that Iommi and Butler seem to be fine with this is kind of troubling.  If they were broke,  I could understand it,  but I highly doubt that's the case.