Linkin Park

[millahh]

Yeah I got all that guys. I'm sympathetic to Chester's suffering but I'm finding difficulty to be empathetic, which I always strive to be. Empathy implies my ability to put myself in someone else's shoes to comprehend their suffering, I put myself in his shoes and my thoughts are:
- WHOA! I get to make music for living!!
- WHOA! thousands of people like my music!!!
- WHOA! I get to play live for thousands, of fans, of MINE!!!
- WHOA! I don't have to move literally every two years because the apartment rent went up by 100$!
- WHOA! There is no conceivable fuckin way in existence that I can be super sad unless I REALLY want to.
It's difficult, for me, to be sad given all that. Positive effort and planning needs to be put into achieving sadness if I have all that.
I understand how it's easy to judge all that as naive, I see it. Perhaps I'm unable to explain my thoughts on this clearly, so please don't think I'm being insensitive.

Dude...the guy was serially sexually abused from the time he was seven.  That seems to have irrevocably fucked him up.  As I said up-thread, the suicide was the end of a tragedy that had been going on for about 34 years.  Also, him being that fucked up is probably part of what made him such an artist.

[Stadler]

I can definitely be a cold-hearted bastard, but a couple things I've learned:   money CANNOT buy you happiness.  I've already written (here) about this, but I think it can actually be the OPPOSITE.   I don't think you become a rock star by accident or with no effort, but like anything, you don't always know how hot that stove is until you touch it.   And it has to be exceedingly frustrating to want people to hear your music but not want the fandom that goes along with it (and let's face it; that kind of music brings out the worst kind of fan, that feels like they have some deeper emotional connection other than having had the same feelings at some point in life).   

[TioJorge]

Yeah, money can make you insanely comfortable, buy you the nicest things and give you some fleeting entertainment. But if your mind and emotions want you to feel like you're in the deepest, darkest shit hole on the planet, you will fucking feel it; there isn't any inconceivable amount of money that is going to help that. It's just not. That is internal and it is yours and yours alone.

But to an extent, you're right. There are people out there, without a single doubt, that have suffered immensely more than Bennington, went through the same experiences, and still have to kill and beg for food and pennies that will live longer than him and never once think of suicide. And y'know what? The two are completely disconnected. Every person has their own way of dealing, and their own choices to make regardless of their life circumstance.

It's meant to be a joke but there's a brilliant line by Louis C.K. that resonated with me and I randomly thought of it while being accosted by the insane amount of social media surrounding this...I'm paraphrasing here but it's pretty close to something like "Everyone alive are just people who decided not to kill themselves today". It's said in jest and in fun but when you really think about how much shit some people go through...it's true. He decided not to keep going...even with kids, a wife, and seeming riches. Money is just gravy, at the end of the day. I've lived poor and in the wilderness and I've lived in complete comfort (nothing like Bennington but at some point it becomes irrelevant), and if I was depressed when I was poor, it felt the same as when I was living without a worry. Depression does not discriminate.

[Cable]

Yeah I got all that guys. I'm sympathetic to Chester's suffering but I'm finding difficulty to be empathetic, which I always strive to be. Empathy implies my ability to put myself in someone else's shoes to comprehend their suffering, I put myself in his shoes and my thoughts are:
- WHOA! I get to make music for living!!
- WHOA! thousands of people like my music!!!
- WHOA! I get to play live for thousands, of fans, of MINE!!!
- WHOA! I don't have to move literally every two years because the apartment rent went up by 100$!
- WHOA! There is no conceivable fuckin way in existence that I can be super sad unless I REALLY want to.
It's difficult, for me, to be sad given all that. Positive effort and planning needs to be put into achieving sadness if I have all that.
I understand how it's easy to judge all that as naive, I see it. Perhaps I'm unable to explain my thoughts on this clearly, so please don't think I'm being insensitive.

Dude...the guy was serially sexually abused from the time he was seven.  That seems to have irrevocably fucked him up.  As I said up-thread, the suicide was the end of a tragedy that had been going on for about 34 years.  Also, him being that fucked up is probably part of what made him such an artist.

Yup Millahh!

Progmetty, I understand it. As someone who wants more, but doesn't need much more, what Chester had would make me content too. As you said, you have difficult having empathy here. As Stadler & TioJorge noted, no amount of money would make some people feel better. Just look at the amount of money people spend on therapy & treatment that can sink it- I still hear $100-200 p/hour (cash or check for some) floated about. And even people that go through that can still end their lives. I like to believe my therapy trinity is infallable, and one was basically created for people just like Chester. But it still fails lots of people, and is costlier than "standard" therapy when run full-on.

So at the end, no matter the things that can be around people, it can *still* all be meaningless and worthless. That is why this monster is considered a disease; it has no discriminating practices as TioJorge stated. But no one can make you emphasize with someone, and it's even harder to do from our armchairs and not knowing him in person. 

[Mladen]

That's exactly why depression is a horrible sickness. The inability for a person to realize how tremendously lucky they should feel just boggles my mid.

[Adami]

That's exactly why depression is a horrible sickness. The inability for a person to realize how tremendously lucky they should feel just boggles my mid.

And this completely misses the point of depression.

[Mladen]

What do you mean exactly?

[TioJorge]

There's really no other way to put it than it's not the point... Telling that to someone that is already depressed as hell is tantamount to kicking them when they're down. Because I'm pretty sure that barring teens reaching out for attention, no one wants to feel that way; no one actively thinks "I'm going to feel so horrible that I ponder ending my life". I have zero doubt that "feeling lucky" has no factor in feeling depressed or not. Again, it's totally disconnected from the concept of depression. I'm sure they'd love to feel lucky/blessed/grateful for whatever they have but the whole thing with depression is that it clouds everything and gives you tunnel vision so that all you see and feel is wretchedness.

To use a totally exaggerated example, try telling someone who just lost their arm "Be grateful you still have the other one!". Yeah, true in theory. In practice, fuck you.  (hopefully obvious I'm not actually saying this to anyone)

[Zantera]

Without having been rich myself I can imagine it alienates you in ways. Do people hang around you cause they generally like you, or because of the spotlight/money? He obviously had his demons but similar to Chris Cornell, where it also came as a surprise and the closest people were surprised, it's frightening that even if you look fine on the outside, it can be that bad on the inside.

[ErHaO]

Yeah I got all that guys. I'm sympathetic to Chester's suffering but I'm finding difficulty to be empathetic, which I always strive to be. Empathy implies my ability to put myself in someone else's shoes to comprehend their suffering, I put myself in his shoes and my thoughts are:
- WHOA! I get to make music for living!!
- WHOA! thousands of people like my music!!!
- WHOA! I get to play live for thousands, of fans, of MINE!!!
- WHOA! I don't have to move literally every two years because the apartment rent went up by 100$!
- WHOA! There is no conceivable fuckin way in existence that I can be super sad unless I REALLY want to.
It's difficult, for me, to be sad given all that. Positive effort and planning needs to be put into achieving sadness if I have all that.
I understand how it's easy to judge all that as naive, I see it. Perhaps I'm unable to explain my thoughts on this clearly, so please don't think I'm being insensitive.

I respectfully call it naïve because I understand what you are saying from your point of view. What you are doing is putting your own mind in someone else's position, but that is not how it works. Every person is different and can have different causes for their mental problems (genetics, traumatic events, personal relationships, drug abuse, head trauma, poverty, etc.). In your situation, money can be the root of your problems. But for others, that may very well not be the issue. It can be the case that with money and fame your problems would be over and that you become happy/happier. But for many people, this simply does not apply. Chester at one point wasn't rich and famous as well, and yet he came trough that period, but getting famous and lot's of money did nothing to save him ultimately.

[Mladen]

There's really no other way to put it than it's not the point... Telling that to someone that is already depressed as hell is tantamount to kicking them when they're down. Because I'm pretty sure that barring teens reaching out for attention, no one wants to feel that way; no one actively thinks "I'm going to feel so horrible that I ponder ending my life". I have zero doubt that "feeling lucky" has no factor in feeling depressed or not. Again, it's totally disconnected from the concept of depression. I'm sure they'd love to feel lucky/blessed/grateful for whatever they have but the whole thing with depression is that it clouds everything and gives you tunnel vision so that all you see and feel is wretchedness.

To use a totally exaggerated example, try telling someone who just lost their arm "Be grateful you still have the other one!". Yeah, true in theory. In practice, fuck you.  (hopefully obvious I'm not actually saying this to anyone)

This was precisely the point I was trying to make, but I probably didn't put it in the right words. I figure that, objectively, some people really have a lot to be grateful for, but if they suffer from depression, it disables them from realizing that.

[ariich]

A lot of people here really don't understand fundamentally what depression is. I don't mean that as an insult or to imply that anyone is stupid, because most people don't come across this (I've only developed a proper understanding of it in the last few years). But it's important to be clear that depression is NOT:
 - feeling sad;
 - not realising how lucky you are to have good things.

Depression varies a ton from person to person, but an extremely common underlying issue is a fundamental lack of self-worth or self-belief. It's a voice that tells you "you're a bad person, you have no value, nobody really cares about you" and so on. Someone can seem like they're incredibly lucky, whether with material things like money and success or emotional things like family, but underneath if that's what their subconscious is telling them, then none of that stuff matters. I have an unbelievable amount of respect for those who have to deal with that shit from day to day, and who manage it and even beat it.

It's also one of the fundamental misunderstandings about suicide, the idea that it's selfish and that someone who kills themselves does so with no regard to people who care about them. Very often it is in fact the opposite. That lack of self-worth can mean they either don't believe that anyone does love or care about them, or that even if they do, those people's lives would be improved by ending his/her own.

[TioJorge]

Yeah that last part is the part that always gets me the most. It's pretty damn horrible.

After having more than a few friends commit suicide along with seeing the many well known ones by famous people alike, it should be pretty clear now that it's nothing to do with anything external. It is entirely internal. But I suppose if you either haven't dealt with your own depression before or haven't been around anyone who has been afflicted by it, there's really no way to understand it.

Either way it sucks ass.

[pogoowner]

After watching a couple recent interviews, it sure sounds like Chester had been struggling with drugs and alcohol again in recent years. It's a really sad situation.

[Cable]

That's exactly why depression is a horrible sickness. The inability for a person to realize how tremendously lucky they should feel just boggles my mid.

And this completely misses the point of depression.

Not new news, but to support the disease model and challenges of depression; here it is produced in rats to study anti-depressants. Older study at this point, but free to access and it does the job.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Irwin_Lucki/publication/11363338_Cryan_JF_Markou_A_Lucki_I_Assessing_antidepressant_activity_in_rodents_recent_developments_and_future_needs_Trends_Pharmacol_Sci_23_238-245/links/09e41509a757dd0d22000000/Cryan-JF-Markou-A-Lucki-I-Assessing-antidepressant-activity-in-rodents-recent-developments-and-future-needs-Trends-Pharmacol-Sci-23-238-245.pdf

Now I don't spend sessions with rats having chat it up  , but I would say it's safe to assume they don't have fame and money.

[Mladen]

It's also one of the fundamental misunderstandings about suicide, the idea that it's selfish and that someone who kills themselves does so with no regard to people who care about them. Very often it is in fact the opposite. That lack of self-worth can mean they either don't believe that anyone does love or care about them, or that even if they do, those people's lives would be improved by ending his/her own.

This is a good point. However, I've always wondered about the line between committing suicide as a result of depression and as simply a decision made with wrong reasoning. I don't think every suicide is related to depression, which might put the selfishness question into perspective. But that would be more of a general topic and a different discussion.

[OpenYourEyes311]

Got A Thousand Suns and The Hunting Party from the library yesterday. Listened to ATS on the way to work today. It was... interesting. Certainly not as bad as I always assumed, but obviously completely different than I'm used to (was a fan up until MTM). Some of the songs were really good, and I was surprised by how many "interlude"  or instrumental tracks there were. I'd give it another couple spins at least. I'll listen to THP on my way back home today, so I'm looking forward to that.

[fadetoblackdude7]

ATS is definitely meant to be listened to as a whole. No doubt about that.

[PixelDream]

ATS and THP never clicked for me, but I like a couple of tracks from ATS: Waiting for the End, When They Come for Me, Blackout and of course Wretches and Kings. That song is just badass.