Songs you have trouble “catching” the beat of

[npiazza91]

Part of the reason why I love prog is that it always keeps you on your toes. The time signature is constantly changing, and at first, if you’re not a prog listener it’s gonna feel awkward and it might even turn you off, since all you’ll be used to is the standard 4/4. But once it clicks, it’s so satisfying to mentally keep up with all the changes and be able to appreciate the controlled chaos of it all. To me, that IS prog, and a big pat of why I love DT.

However, that being said, there’s still some songs I listen to that i just can’t “catch” no matter how hard I try. Here’s two examples.

Barstool Warrior is a big one for me. It’s a great song, but no matter how hard I try I just can’t seem to catch the beat. What time signature is that song in, because I’ve heard a ton of prog, but the song still sounds so awkward to me. I can’t catch the flow at all. I feel like I would enjoy the chorus so much more if I “got” it.

Another example (very small one) is in Fall into the Light during the chorus where he says “for...usss”. On that small part I lose it for a second. The timing of when he says “us” I just can never get down. I’m not sure if the time signature changes for those two seconds or not, but it always sounds so awkward to me.

I’ll probably think of more examples, but the more i listen to DOT, the more I’m starting to think it might be their most complex album. The time signatures get weird af, and not in a controlled chaos way like Metropolis it Dance of Eternity. It sounds...off. But in a good way. It’s hard to explain. Very rarely do I hear sections in prog songs that make me go “woah that’s weird” anymore, but I had a few cases of that in DOT for some reason, more than any DT album probably since ADTOE.

[Stadler]

It's not a Dream Theater song, but the song "Christmas Wrapping" by The Waitresses.  The saxophone (it might not be a sax, but I can't tell what reed instrument it actually is) just seems rhythmically out of synch with the rest of the tune to me.   I've no doubt that is on purpose, but still.

[Luoto]

Barstool Warrior is a big one for me. It’s a great song, but no matter how hard I try I just can’t seem to catch the beat. What time signature is that song in, because I’ve heard a ton of prog, but the song still sounds so awkward to me. I can’t catch the flow at all. I feel like I would enjoy the chorus so much more if I “got” it.

Here's a rough breakdown...

Intro riff: 7/8
Bridge: 6/8
Verse 1: 4/4
Chorus 1: 6/8
Verse 2: 7/4 (basically a variation of the intro riff that's used as a brief transition)
Chorus 2 (incl. Bridge): 6/4
Interlude & solo: 6/8
Verse 3: 6/8 -> 6/4
Outro verse: 6/8

Rhythmically complex indeed! I didn't even bother with the "wanky" transition in the intro

Another example (very small one) is in Fall into the Light during the chorus where he says “for...usss”. On that small part I lose it for a second. The timing of when he says “us” I just can never get down. I’m not sure if the time signature changes for those two seconds or not, but it always sounds so awkward to me.

That part of the chorus is alternating measures of 5/8 and 6/8, and in the second half it switches to 5/4 and 6/4.

[pg1067]

Barstool Warrior is a big one for me. It’s a great song, but no matter how hard I try I just can’t seem to catch the beat. What time signature is that song in, because I’ve heard a ton of prog, but the song still sounds so awkward to me. I can’t catch the flow at all. I feel like I would enjoy the chorus so much more if I “got” it.

Some of BW is in 4/4, but the other predominant time signature is 7/8 (or 7/4 -- I think there are parts in both).  The part between the intro and the initial guitar solo have some alternating bars.


For me, the part of Pull Me Under right before the choruses always threw me.  There's also a breakdown section in Erotomania that does something similar (I think it's a part that was taken from Oliver's Twist).

[Cool Chris]

I get that this is something that musical types dig, but the last thing I am trying to do while listening to DT (or any music for that matter) is catching the beat.

[DTA]

Not a DT song, but the intro of Genesis' Keep It Dark always threw me off a bit. I can figure it now just from hearing it enough times but I never quite knew where the downbeat was going to hit the first bunch of times I listened to it.

[The Walrus]

The only thing DT's thrown at me that's baffled me is some of the stuff in Pale Blue Dot's instrumental section, mainly because I haven't sat down to dissect it, because it's a piece I just don't really want to think about analytically, because just listening to that madness and how it methodically breaks itself down to the point of near-chaos is viscerally satisfying. So, there are parts in there where I'm just completely thrown.

When I was 16 and SC had just released, I had the most difficult time keeping the beat on ITPOE if I was listening to the drums. The meter is so odd because the guitar part doesn't give a clear indication of the meter being played, and the drum part makes it even more confusing because it's just fills. Very cool stuff.

Non-DT: I remember, for some strange reason, being completely thrown by the choir start to Rhapsody of Fire's "Reign of Terror" which appears throughout the song. The strange placement of accented syllables always threw me... even though the song is in 4/4. Whoops.

[wolfking]

Not really a beat or rhythmic thing but the E chugging short riff in the beginning of Learning to Live.  The section after the higher octave part.  Hard to describe in my head at work.  It only happens once but is quite hard and complex playing it on guitar in time.  Probably a minute or minute and a half in.

[Max Kuehnau]

Part of the reason why I love prog is that it always keeps you on your toes. The time signature is constantly changing, and at first, if you’re not a prog listener it’s gonna feel awkward and it might even turn you off, since all you’ll be used to is the standard 4/4. But once it clicks, it’s so satisfying to mentally keep up with all the changes and be able to appreciate the controlled chaos of it all. To me, that IS prog, and a big pat of why I love DT.

However, that being said, there’s still some songs I listen to that i just can’t “catch” no matter how hard I try. Here’s two examples.

Barstool Warrior is a big one for me. It’s a great song, but no matter how hard I try I just can’t seem to catch the beat. What time signature is that song in, because I’ve heard a ton of prog, but the song still sounds so awkward to me. I can’t catch the flow at all. I feel like I would enjoy the chorus so much more if I “got” it.

Another example (very small one) is in Fall into the Light during the chorus where he says “for...usss”. On that small part I lose it for a second. The timing of when he says “us” I just can never get down. I’m not sure if the time signature changes for those two seconds or not, but it always sounds so awkward to me.

I’ll probably think of more examples, but the more i listen to DOT, the more I’m starting to think it might be their most complex album. The time signatures get weird af, and not in a controlled chaos way like Metropolis it Dance of Eternity. It sounds...off. But in a good way. It’s hard to explain. Very rarely do I hear sections in prog songs that make me go “woah that’s weird” anymore, but I had a few cases of that in DOT for some reason, more than any DT album probably since ADTOE.

here we have the introductory section of Barstool, very simple really (given what they're capable of now): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj2czaYjQg8
The section of FITL you mentioned is in 11/8, subdivided 5 and 6. Easy as well.
To me there is no DT piece I have trouble catching the time signatures. And no, DOT is not their most complex album at all. (I even think it's the most simplistic of the MM era, and that's not a good thing to me) DT12 and ADTOE feature sections that are more complex than anything they did before and after. (the instrumental sections of Outcry and Illumination Theory respectively. Took a day for me to find these out.)

Other than DT: The Black Page by Frank Zappa caught me the first time I listened to it. Not anymore now. (might be the greatest piece ever written from a drumming point of view,or I like to think it is anyway. Wonderfully complex)

[Max Kuehnau]

I get that this is something that musical types dig, but the last thing I am trying to do while listening to DT (or any music for that matter) is catching the beat.

well, if you want to play the pieces, you have to analyse them first. Or if you're like me and you only can get into music by way of your brain, not your metaphorical heart.

[Stadler]

I get that this is something that musical types dig, but the last thing I am trying to do while listening to DT (or any music for that matter) is catching the beat.

Even though I play, so I understand what's being said here, it's less about the mechanical analysis for me than just the "jarring listening experience".  I always thought the solo at the end of "Lucky Man" by ELP changed the feel and tone of that song; to this day it lowers my enjoyment of the studio version of that song.  I much prefer the melancholy and irony of the more peaceful acoustic versions that Lake would play live.

[JLa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bktMpOrFofo&t=443

This section is just ... notes flying by. 

[Bentower]

Something DT-related here; a section from Derek's Atlantis: Part 1. "Apocalypse 1470 B.C.". It isn't that hard to grasp, but the effect is quite disorienting nevertheless. I think it's a fantastic bit of rhythmic mayhem from Virgil. https://youtu.be/xNaKbpLaN4k?t=81

I wish Mangini would introduce something along these lines into Dream Theater, since he could pull it off whereas MP really couldn't. That much is made clear by PSMS's version of Atlantis.

[pg1067]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bktMpOrFofo&t=443

This section is just ... notes flying by. 

12/8 x3
9/8

Here starts the famous 5's and 7's section:
5/8
7/8
5/8
7/8
5/8
7/8
5/8
7/8
5/8
5/8
7/8
5/8
7/8
5/8
5/8
7/8
3/8
5/8
7/8
5/8
7/8
5/8
7/8
5/8
7/8

I believe there is not uniformity about how the next 8 bars are counted, but this is what I hear:
5/8
5/8
7/8
7/8
5/8
5/8
7/8
7/8
5/8 x4

[Orbert]

I get that this is something that musical types dig, but the last thing I am trying to do while listening to DT (or any music for that matter) is catching the beat.

well, if you want to play the pieces, you have to analyse them first. Or if you're like me and you only can get into music by way of your brain, not your metaphorical heart.

Not even for playing, but just tapping your foot or banging your head, you have to know where the beat is.  4/4 is easy, you can literally tap your foot while talking to someone or thinking about something else.  When the tune alternates measures of 7/8 and 5/8 or something like that, it's still nice to be able to tap along, but you first have to figure it out.  It's something musicians do naturally, but I'm sure there are non-players who like to do the same thing.

[Revenge319]

Honestly, despite having no knowledge on music theory, or even time signatures by themselves, I never feel like I have trouble "catching the beat" of any Dream Theater song. Like, for all I know, The Dance of Eternity could be entirely in 4/4 and the whole "108 time signatures" thing is all just one big inside joke.

[JLa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bktMpOrFofo&t=443

This section is just ... notes flying by. 

<time sigs>

... ok then!

When we get half way through I tap my foot to Kevin's notes. Works well enough. 

[Max Kuehnau]

Something DT-related here; a section from Derek's Atlantis: Part 1. "Apocalypse 1470 B.C.". It isn't that hard to grasp, but the effect is quite disorienting nevertheless. I think it's a fantastic bit of rhythmic mayhem from Virgil. https://youtu.be/xNaKbpLaN4k?t=81

I wish Mangini would introduce something along these lines into Dream Theater, since he could pull it off whereas MP really couldn't. That much is made clear by PSMS's version of Atlantis.

Obviously yes. If MM were to ever do something like that (which I'd welcome as well) it should be harder to play than what Virgil did though IMHO. Btw, it surprises me that Derek wrote this thing, never thought he is able to do these things, seeing as his contributions to DT and SOA don't sit well with me, although I respect that people like his contributions to DT and SOA. (I'd love to know what Jordan would do to that piece too actually. Or let's say how it would be constructed had he written it as opposed to Derek)

[Max Kuehnau]

Honestly, despite having no knowledge on music theory, or even time signatures by themselves, I never feel like I have trouble "catching the beat" of any Dream Theater song. Like, for all I know, The Dance of Eternity could be entirely in 4/4 and the whole "108 time signatures" thing is all just one big inside joke.

except it absolutely (and provably) isn't entirely in 4/4. (contrary to popular belief there are some measures of 4/4 in the piece though.)

[Bentower]

Something DT-related here; a section from Derek's Atlantis: Part 1. "Apocalypse 1470 B.C.". It isn't that hard to grasp, but the effect is quite disorienting nevertheless. I think it's a fantastic bit of rhythmic mayhem from Virgil. https://youtu.be/xNaKbpLaN4k?t=81

I wish Mangini would introduce something along these lines into Dream Theater, since he could pull it off whereas MP really couldn't. That much is made clear by PSMS's version of Atlantis.

Obviously yes. If MM were to ever do something like that (which I'd welcome as well) it should be harder to play than what Virgil did though IMHO. Btw, it surprises me that Derek wrote this thing, never thought he is able to do these things, seeing as his contributions to DT and SOA don't sit well with me, although I respect that people like his contributions to DT and SOA. (I'd love to know what Jordan would do to that piece too actually. Or let's say how it would be constructed had he written it as opposed to Derek)

I may have read back when Planet X was released that Derek came up with the notes to fit Virgil's drumming there, but I wouldn't be surprised if Virgil had come up with that entire bit and not just the drum pattern. He is after all a pretty accomplished composer.

Virgil took Derek to the outer limits on the Planet X albums and so I wasn't exactly shocked when Derek mentioned that he didn't really enjoy playing that material.

I still maintain that Quantum is the best thing either of them has done, and interestingly enough: "In a 2012 article by MusicRadar, Dream Theater drummer Mike Mangini ranked the album tenth in his list of most influential drum albums".

[Stadler]

Something DT-related here; a section from Derek's Atlantis: Part 1. "Apocalypse 1470 B.C.". It isn't that hard to grasp, but the effect is quite disorienting nevertheless. I think it's a fantastic bit of rhythmic mayhem from Virgil. https://youtu.be/xNaKbpLaN4k?t=81

I wish Mangini would introduce something along these lines into Dream Theater, since he could pull it off whereas MP really couldn't. That much is made clear by PSMS's version of Atlantis.

Obviously yes. If MM were to ever do something like that (which I'd welcome as well) it should be harder to play than what Virgil did though IMHO. Btw, it surprises me that Derek wrote this thing, never thought he is able to do these things, seeing as his contributions to DT and SOA don't sit well with me, although I respect that people like his contributions to DT and SOA. (I'd love to know what Jordan would do to that piece too actually. Or let's say how it would be constructed had he written it as opposed to Derek)

Honest question: why "should" it be harder?  Do you mean that literally?

I'm asking, because in one interpretation of "should", it implies that "difficulty" is a desirable trait, and I'm not sure what the "difficulty" of a piece has to do with whether it's an emotive, connective piece of music.   I know people - one posts here - that doesn't even play guitar or sing who have performed "Yesterday" for people and got them to clap and sing along.  That's really the magic of music, and while "difficulty" is one way to connect, it's not the only way, and perhaps, arguably, not the best way. 

[Max Kuehnau]

Something DT-related here; a section from Derek's Atlantis: Part 1. "Apocalypse 1470 B.C.". It isn't that hard to grasp, but the effect is quite disorienting nevertheless. I think it's a fantastic bit of rhythmic mayhem from Virgil. https://youtu.be/xNaKbpLaN4k?t=81

I wish Mangini would introduce something along these lines into Dream Theater, since he could pull it off whereas MP really couldn't. That much is made clear by PSMS's version of Atlantis.

Obviously yes. If MM were to ever do something like that (which I'd welcome as well) it should be harder to play than what Virgil did though IMHO. Btw, it surprises me that Derek wrote this thing, never thought he is able to do these things, seeing as his contributions to DT and SOA don't sit well with me, although I respect that people like his contributions to DT and SOA. (I'd love to know what Jordan would do to that piece too actually. Or let's say how it would be constructed had he written it as opposed to Derek)

Honest question: why "should" it be harder?  Do you mean that literally?

I'm asking, because in one interpretation of "should", it implies that "difficulty" is a desirable trait, and I'm not sure what the "difficulty" of a piece has to do with whether it's an emotive, connective piece of music.   I know people - one posts here - that doesn't even play guitar or sing who have performed "Yesterday" for people and got them to clap and sing along.  That's really the magic of music, and while "difficulty" is one way to connect, it's not the only way, and perhaps, arguably, not the best way.

it's the only way for me. I'll touch on it on my thread at some point because you'll need to know why to understand me better.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Outcry is the obvious choice, but another one that I struggle with is Sacrificed Sons. For some reason, the timing of the main riff in the instrumental section gives me fits.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

I don't know about songs..but how about bands that I have troubled catching the rhythm..I'm talking about none other than Spastic Ink. which I discovered them way back in middle 00's and they were from previous members of Eldritch..Although they play extreme staff they're more in the math metal genre than the progressive one..but a song that comes to mind is Just a little Bit from Inc Compatible really crazy rhythms and accents..

[Herrick]

I get that this is something that musical types dig, but the last thing I am trying to do while listening to DT (or any music for that matter) is catching the beat.

Same here. I have minimal music theory knowledge but that doesn't keep me from enjoying DT's songs any less.

The only part of a DT song that threw me off was listening to the heavy part of Learning To Live for the first few times.

[bosk1]

With odd time signatures, I have a difficult time figuring out what they are and what the beat is.  But that doesn't stop me from loving the music either.  And when it comes to singing it, I think one of the most fun musical experiences I have ever had was singing Learning To Live for an audition years ago.  I couldn't tell you what all the crazy time signatures are.  But I knew the song well enough that it didn't matter.

[Orbert]

A buddy and I performed "Wait for Sleep" a few years back.  He sang, I played keys.  The first verse alternates 5/8 with 6/8 a lot (but not always) then the second verse goes with a straight 6/8.  He doesn't know jack about music theory, so I asked him if he'd practiced it a lot or what, and he said you just sing it.  It flows.  If you try to think about the time signatures, you'll fuck it up.  Just sing it.

Okay, that's one approach, and it's not necessarily bad advice.  Once you get the "feel" of it, just play it.  If you think too much about the time signature or where the beat is, you can just confuse yourself.

[pg1067]

With odd time signatures, I have a difficult time figuring out what they are and what the beat is.  But that doesn't stop me from loving the music either.  And when it comes to singing it, I think one of the most fun musical experiences I have ever had was singing Learning To Live for an audition years ago.  I couldn't tell you what all the crazy time signatures are.  But I knew the song well enough that it didn't matter.

A buddy and I performed "Wait for Sleep" a few years back.  He sang, I played keys.  The first verse alternates 5/8 with 6/8 a lot (but not always) then the second verse goes with a straight 6/8.  He doesn't know jack about music theory, so I asked him if he'd practiced it a lot or what, and he said you just sing it.  It flows.  If you try to think about the time signatures, you'll fuck it up.  Just sing it.

Okay, that's one approach, and it's not necessarily bad advice.  Once you get the "feel" of it, just play it.  If you think too much about the time signature or where the beat is, you can just confuse yourself.

I think it a lot of it depends on the song.  I sort of naturally figure out the time signatures, and it always aids my enjoyment of a song.  I'm also a bit compulsive about it.  It took me a while to "get" the intro to Breaking All Illusions, but once I did, that's when that song moved from a cool song to one of DT's best.

BUT yeah, you don't necessarily need to know the time signatures to sing the songs.  There's one spot in Learning to Live that, for me, you really have to catch the right time to come in properly.  It's "I won't give up 'til I've no more to give," right before the second verse starts.  But the verses (which are in alternating 7/4 and 6/4 -- or, if you prefer, 4/4, 3/4, 4/4, 2/4) are pretty easy to sing without any thought about the time signatures.

It would be interesting for someone to ask JLB about this.  Does he just wing it?  Do JP and JR give him charts?

[TAC]

As long as I've been listening to music, I have never even once considered what the time signature is.

[Cool Chris]

As long as I've been listening to music, I have never even once considered what the time signature is.

Me too. Ignorance is indeed bliss sometimes.

[Öxölklöfför]

I had some trouble with the intro riff to S2N in the beginning, I just didn't get the rhythm pattern. After some research I taught how to play it and to see mathematically, but even today I have a little trouble "feeling" the beat, even if I can play the notes for it.

[erwinrafael]

I had some trouble with the intro riff to S2N in the beginning, I just didn't get the rhythm pattern. After some research I taught how to play it and to see mathematically, but even today I have a little trouble "feeling" the beat, even if I can play the notes for it.

I feel the beat by singing it:

Ten den den tenenenen ten ten breath ten tenen ten

[MoraWintersoul]

If you try to think about the time signatures, you'll fuck it up.  Just sing it.

Yup. Does anyone think James is thinking about time signatures at all? He just knows the songs so he catches the beat that way.

So as someone who doesn't play any instruments either, that's what I try and do too in order to be able to headbang to the song next time I hear it 

[nattmorker]

I was having a hard time trying to catch the time signatures of the verses of "Why I Dream" from the last JR's album. But finally I got it.

[jammindude]

I've been thinking about this thread title ever since it popped up.   

I'm not the guy who ever took out a slide rule to figure out a time signature, and I never took music theory...but those two subjects do fascinate me.   I wish I would have gone to music school or picked up a drum kit...but I guess I was always an "armchair quarterback" at heart.

The reason most progressive music fascinates me is not the riffs, it's the rhythms.   When Rush started using synths, it didn't really bother me that much, because the rhythms were still interesting.   When I stopped listening to AC/DC and started listening to Iron Maiden and later on Metallica, it was because the rhythms were more interesting.    When I first got into Fates Warning with The Spectre Within, I was completely fascinated by the off kilter rhythms they were using. 

I love trying to figure out what a weird rhythm is doing sometimes.  It's like a puzzle to me.  Back when vinyl was my main source of listening, I would slow the record down to try to figure out *exactly* what was being played (so that I could mimic it perfectly when I was air guitaring with a tennis racket in the mirror, of course....DUH!)

That's what initially drew me to Dream Theater.   The fact that they gave me that sense of "what the hell did they just do right there?  Play it again!"   And yet I still haven't figured out what the hell is happening in the latter half of the instrumental break in Metropolis.   I wish someone would make a video where they are slowing it down and picking it apart bar by bar and line by line so that I could follow it a bit more closely when I'm air drumming it on the steering wheel. 

That's also why Between the Buried and Me got me back into extreme metal after being bored with it for a long time.  I hadn't heard extreme metal done like that....well, ever.