Author Topic: Why is prog fizzling out again?  (Read 4520 times)

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Offline Skeever

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Why is prog fizzling out again?
« on: June 20, 2018, 02:56:47 PM »
It seems like progressive music is really fizzling out and getting harder to find. The bands that were big when I was getting into prog in the 90s/early 00s (DT, Porcupine Tree, Flower Kings, Spock's, Opeth, Pain of Salvation) seem smaller than ever before, and now that these guys have become "the Old Guard", it doesn't seem like there are many new acts that could even dream of getting as big as DT or PT did.

Are people just losing interest in prog? Or... is there something about the technology (for both creating and listening to music) that set prog up for renewed success in the 90s, even if it's no longer true now? Perhaps prog is a hard sell for a world where music is more disposal than ever, and was an easier sell for a pre-streaming world where you used the internet to discover new artists but didn't have entire discographies at your fingertips. Idk. Open discussion.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2018, 03:02:08 PM »
Oversaturation. A problem with almost every genre these days. There are just too many artists, too many niches. You put 50 prog fans in a room together and I guarantee you every single one of them will be a fan of artists most of the others aren't familiar with or straight up dislike, or have opposite opinions on. Prog's already a diverse genre, you couple all the benefits of the Internet and how easy it is to make a record these days and the fandom can easily become fragmented with the impossible number of artists to follow. Then you get big acts like Opeth who do complete 180s and that alone will split the fandom like whoa.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2018, 03:57:06 PM »
Maybe your style of prog is fizzling. I still find great prog bands today. 
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Offline Crow

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2018, 03:57:18 PM »
I wasn't really aware that it was fiddling out, just that - as an extension of what Katt said, with so many options for bands people find their niches rather than flocking around a smaller set of "big" prog bands

That said I still see a number of newer bands that get a lot of attention, Haken always comes to mind

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2018, 04:43:08 PM »
I wasn't really aware that it was fiddling out, just that - as an extension of what Katt said, with so many options for bands people find their niches rather than flocking around a smaller set of "big" prog bands

That said I still see a number of newer bands that get a lot of attention, Haken always comes to mind

I'd also like to mention Big Big Train. Sure they were formed in 1990 but I feel like they had a "new" formation in 2009 when David Longdon joined. They've been on an uphill path ever since. And I HOPE that Nick D'Virgilio will not quit the band or that (worse) they call it quits anytime soon.

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Offline Lethean

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2018, 08:18:32 PM »
I kinda agree with everyone else; it's not really fizzling out, it's just the way the industry is.  Also, I think "as big as DT" has been a nearly impossible goal for the vast majority of bands for quite some time; probably since Images and Words.  Maybe Opeth has gotten close in some cities as far as attendance, but I don't think any of the other bands you mentioned got near DT, but that's OK.  There's a still a lot of great progressive music being created.

Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2018, 09:34:37 PM »
The frontrunners, including the old guard like DT, Wilson, and Opeth and the newer darlings like Haken, have mostly gone stagnant and are mostly happy enough to just retread old ground until anyone not super attached gets tired of hearing the same thing.  There are less reasons for a non-prog-fanatic to be interested in where the genre is going then there were in the 2000s

Offline SoundscapeMN

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2018, 10:57:54 PM »
it's mostly become underground, but that hardly means there isn't good, progressive music being made right now.

Online SwedishGoose

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2018, 11:18:48 PM »
I don't think it is fizzling out at all.... sure there are not any new DT success stories lateley but:

- There is sooo much great progressive music being made now both by the old guard and the new
- There are quite a few progressive internet radio stations
- Prog Magazine is alive and kicking
- More progressive bands than I can rember ever happened before tour (might be my view only as we have since a few years a specialized progressive promotor in Sweden)

No I don't think it's fizzling out.... I think it's growing but as there are more and more bands every year each band will get a smaller share of the growing market.

Offline Pettor

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2018, 01:14:56 AM »
There's tons of great new prog music. Maybe some bands aren't as big anymore but DT did come in a time where there wasn't as many doing their thing and that's also an important part in becoming big actually (and other factors as well ofc).

I also find strong prog influences in more music and where I before never expected it. Many years ago I was listening to a local girl called Anna Von Hausswolff which first album is suggestiv piano music with a strong pop base. Fast forward and she plays the organ with strong progressive influences and even this happened:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bj5C3ZSFDTC/?hl=en&taken-by=annavonhausswolff

Offline Cyclopssss

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2018, 01:24:12 AM »
No money to be made in Prog. Just throwing it out there.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2018, 07:29:13 AM »
No money to be made in Prog. Just throwing it out there.

That's actually a big part of it I think, whether it should be or not. A lot of the guys with the chops to play prog settle for being touring players for pop or country acts because that's where the money is nowadays.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2018, 07:49:33 AM »
Was it ever really big enough to fizzle?  Maybe, but I just think that rock n roll and it's various sub genres were much bigger back in the day and all genres have fizzled a bit.  Maybe oversaturation, and maybe just trends of music, but it's still there however.  It's easier now to discover a new band, but maybe harder now to discover the next great band.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2018, 08:08:58 AM »
And let's not forget that all music moves in cycles to a degree.   

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2018, 08:49:18 AM »
Give me a break! You're just not looking hard enough. And if apparent "commercial success" is your yardstick, you need to get a better yardstick.

It's not fizzling out again; it never ever has! PROG WILL NEVER DIE!!!

Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2018, 09:23:56 AM »
No money to be made in Prog. Just throwing it out there.

There's little money to be made in most genres nowadays. Unless you're a big name like Taylor Swift, Chance the Rapper, or Marshmello, you're probably not going to be making a whole lot of money off of album sales, streaming, or touring. There was a video Misha Mansoor did with Rick Beato where he talked about this and said that he barely breaks even from touring and album sales. Most of his money comes from sponsorships, teaching, and things like that. Album and song sales are declining in every genre and even big pop artists (aside from Taylor Swift) are having trouble filling venues and selling tickets. Prog/metal being kinda niche just makes it a lot worse for them.

Every genre is over-saturated at this point because it's getting easier and easier to make music than it ever was. Great-looking music videos can be shot on iPhones now, anyone with a decent laptop can get a DAW and start producing and recording music, and equipment is getting cheaper and cheaper. Services like Distrokid, CDBaby, and Tunecore let you blast your music into every online service imaginable. You can even post music directly to things like YouTube, SoundCloud, NoiseTrade, and BandCamp. People can even pay you directly through Patreon. The barrier to entry in the music industry has lowered so much in the last decade it's let ANYONE start making music. This lets a lot of great artists (like Chance the Rapper or Lindsey Stirling) that would've gotten lost otherwise get big, but it also let a lot of crap get through the flood gates.

It doesn't help prog's case that it's a bit behind the times with all of this. Most prog music videos are quite frankly uninteresting and poorly produced in a time when the music video is actually important. The only prog band I can think of that actually uses Patreon is Ne Obliviscaris. A lot of big prog artists don't even have their music on streaming services (like Neal Morse, early Spock's Beard, and Tool). A lot of prog artists are stuck in the past and--quite ironically--not embracing all the progress that's been happening in the music industry. People like Steven Wilson are often outright hypercritical of modern music, which certainly doesn't help matters. Doesn't help that a lot of the fans support this behavior. :v

That said, there are a LOT of good progressive bands that have come out in the last decade or so. Ne Obliviscaris, iamthemorning, The Anchoress, The Dear Hunter, Haken, Animals as Leaders, Diablo Swing Orchestra, The Algorithm...There's a lot of cool new things being done in rock/metal music right now if you know how and where to look for it. These bands aren't as big as say DT or PT sure, but they're just starting out. Most of the contemporary big prog bands we know didn't start big. They grew over the years. The recent bands just haven't had much time to do that yet.

tl;dr: the music industry has a whole is going through drastic changes and prog has been slow to keep up with the times, there's a lower barrier to entry which lets a lot of crappy bands in, little money in prog, and there are good prog bands that just haven't grown big yet.

Offline Mebert78

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2018, 10:24:42 AM »
I actually think the genre is experiencing a resurgence with some young blood -- Animals as Leaders, The Contortionist, Caligula's Horse, Haken, Teramaze and Tesseract, in particular, are all young progressive metal bands that are doing great things and attracting nice crowds at their shows.  Another up-and-coming progressive metal band named Valis Ablaze just released a sick debut album that should put them on the map.  Then you have the established bands -- like Dream Theater and Tool -- working on highly-anticipated new albums.  Also, bands like Evergrey, Fates Warning and The Neal Morse Band are all sounding better than ever right now.  I think the genre is in pretty good shape.  You just need to know where to look for the new bands.  Prog magazine has been a valuable resource for me.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2018, 10:48:03 AM »
I think the point is, Dream Theater, along with Porcupine Tree, Opeth etc all brought a lot of people into the genre instead of simply catering to its existing fans. There's not a new, big, popular band that's doing that right now. Sure, your favorite prog bands might still be making cool new music that you like, but I don't think that's what OP was referring to by "fizzing out."

Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2018, 10:59:17 AM »
I think the point is, Dream Theater, along with Thundersword, Porcupine Tree, Opeth etc all brought a lot of people into the genre instead of simply catering to its existing fans. There's not a new, big, popular band that's doing that right now. Sure, your favorite prog bands might still be making cool new music that you like, but I don't think that's what OP was referring to by "fizzing out."

Well said, gotta agree that the genre lacks popular ambassadors with wide appeal to outside listeners.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2018, 11:22:20 AM »
I've been online for 20+ years and this is the first time I've ever heard of this band called 'Thundersword.' What's the word on them?
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2018, 11:26:51 AM »
I think the point is, Dream Theater, along with Thundersword, Porcupine Tree, Opeth etc all brought a lot of people into the genre instead of simply catering to its existing fans. There's not a new, big, popular band that's doing that right now. Sure, your favorite prog bands might still be making cool new music that you like, but I don't think that's what OP was referring to by "fizzing out."

Well said, gotta agree that the genre lacks popular ambassadors with wide appeal to outside listeners.

But isn't that most genres? I don't think the fizzing out is at all related to just prog, but all genres that aren't pop and whatever is popular at the moment. 

Offline glaurung

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2018, 11:39:05 AM »
I've been online for 20+ years and this is the first time I've ever heard of this band called 'Thundersword.' What's the word on them?

Brace yourself

https://soundcloud.com/thundersword/dawn-of-the-age-of-the
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2018, 11:43:36 AM »
I've been online for 20+ years and this is the first time I've ever heard of this band called 'Thundersword.' What's the word on them?

Brace yourself

https://soundcloud.com/thundersword/dawn-of-the-age-of-the

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Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2018, 11:50:03 AM »
I've been online for 20+ years and this is the first time I've ever heard of this band called 'Thundersword.' What's the word on them?

It's a joke band that some people here made up when we had a lot of time on our hands lol.  I just brought it up cause some of the original minds behind it are in this thread.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2018, 11:55:13 AM »
I've been online for 20+ years and this is the first time I've ever heard of this band called 'Thundersword.' What's the word on them?

It's a joke band that some people here made up when we had a lot of time on our hands lol.  I just brought it up cause some of the original minds behind it are in this thread.

I gotta admit I'm a little disappointed now, because 'Thundersword' is a damn cool name  :lol :2metal:
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Offline Elite

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2018, 12:08:34 PM »
I've been online for 20+ years and this is the first time I've ever heard of this band called 'Thundersword.' What's the word on them?

They're slightly more popular than Six Roaming Owls, depending on who you talk to.
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Offline RoeDent

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2018, 01:16:20 PM »
You want an exciting young prog metal band? Look up Maschine, and thank me later.

The music is all there for people who are willing to search for it. Not everything has to be handed to you on a plate. And those who choose to search are rewarded with some of the most exciting music ever made. And it's music of OUR time! The 70s bands had their day...now this is OUR day!

Offline Skeever

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2018, 05:58:56 PM »
I think the point is, Dream Theater, along with Porcupine Tree, Opeth etc all brought a lot of people into the genre instead of simply catering to its existing fans. There's not a new, big, popular band that's doing that right now. Sure, your favorite prog bands might still be making cool new music that you like, but I don't think that's what OP was referring to by "fizzing out."

Yeah, this is pretty much totally what I meant.

I've been online for 20+ years and this is the first time I've ever heard of this band called 'Thundersword.' What's the word on them?

Brace yourself

https://soundcloud.com/thundersword/dawn-of-the-age-of-the

Maybe prog wouldn't be fizzling out if there were more of this....  :metal

Offline glaurung

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2018, 08:21:28 PM »
I've been online for 20+ years and this is the first time I've ever heard of this band called 'Thundersword.' What's the word on them?

They're slightly more popular than Six Roaming Owls, depending on who you talk to.

And a lot better than Krotchraut!
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2018, 09:05:49 AM »
The frontrunners, including the old guard like DT, Wilson, and Opeth and the newer darlings like Haken, have mostly gone stagnant and are mostly happy enough to just retread old ground until anyone not super attached gets tired of hearing the same thing. 

Lolwut. Both Opeth and Wilson have done complete 180s musically, at the danger of alienating their core fans.

Regarding the OP topic, I never felt prog was a particularly successful genre, "successful" in the sense that not a lot of bands actually achieve the level they strive for. There's a lot of prog that's full of virtuosos writing epics, but they can't write an actual song. There's the phrase "prog by numbers" and I think it exists for a reason.
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Offline ytserush

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2018, 02:02:10 PM »
The frontrunners, including the old guard like DT, Wilson, and Opeth and the newer darlings like Haken, have mostly gone stagnant and are mostly happy enough to just retread old ground until anyone not super attached gets tired of hearing the same thing. 

Lolwut. Both Opeth and Wilson have done complete 180s musically, at the danger of alienating their core fans.

Regarding the OP topic, I never felt prog was a particularly successful genre, "successful" in the sense that not a lot of bands actually achieve the level they strive for. There's a lot of prog that's full of virtuosos writing epics, but they can't write an actual song. There's the phrase "prog by numbers" and I think it exists for a reason.

Magna Carta mostly founded a label on it....

Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2018, 02:43:17 PM »
The frontrunners, including the old guard like DT, Wilson, and Opeth and the newer darlings like Haken, have mostly gone stagnant and are mostly happy enough to just retread old ground until anyone not super attached gets tired of hearing the same thing. 

Lolwut. Both Opeth and Wilson have done complete 180s musically, at the danger of alienating their core fans.

Regarding the OP topic, I never felt prog was a particularly successful genre, "successful" in the sense that not a lot of bands actually achieve the level they strive for. There's a lot of prog that's full of virtuosos writing epics, but they can't write an actual song. There's the phrase "prog by numbers" and I think it exists for a reason.

Poet's last major sound change was like 8 years ago and I wouldn't call it a complete 180.  They've done the exact same thing since and I'm mostly talking this decade.  Wilson has never some anything close to a 180 and has mostly done the same thing his whole career.  The last album was a step towards doing something different. 

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2018, 04:12:44 PM »
I don't think Pale Communion or Sorceress are at all like Heritage, and Sorceress and Pale Communion are pretty different beasts themselves.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2018, 04:26:30 PM »
I've been online for 20+ years and this is the first time I've ever heard of this band called 'Thundersword.' What's the word on them?

They're slightly more popular than Six Roaming Owls, depending on who you talk to.

And a lot better than Krotchraut!

Um, excuse me. It's KrotchRaut. The R is capitalized, thank you very much!

Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Why is prog fizzling out again?
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2018, 06:42:30 AM »
The frontrunners, including the old guard like DT, Wilson, and Opeth and the newer darlings like Haken, have mostly gone stagnant and are mostly happy enough to just retread old ground until anyone not super attached gets tired of hearing the same thing. 

Lolwut. Both Opeth and Wilson have done complete 180s musically, at the danger of alienating their core fans.

And don't forget The Astonishing. If there ever was a poster-child for "doing something new and groundbreaking even if it potentially alienates parts of the fanbase", that'd be it